The Root of It

[Atonement]

I am not sure what you mean by 'program' unless you mean 'translation program'

Here is a link from a respected theologian who has researched the OT and NT view of 'Nephesh ' and 'psuche'

Okay I see, you guys use the Online stuff. Something I'll never trust in. What I mean by software, I went to a book store and bought software for my PC, I study Greek. I have two programs installed in Greek language, that has both the Greek Dictionary and the Greek Thesaurus along with that I have a Latin program installed. I also have a Messianic Greek Bible. And I'm telling you, the Scripture you guys are quoting is wrong. But hey, trust your online stuff, it's cool. No wonder sometimes you guys come up with some of the most off the wall stuff..

 

[CP_Mike]

Okay I see, you guys use the Online stuff. Something I'll never trust in. What I mean by software, I went to a book store and bought software for my PC, I study Greek. I have two programs installed in Greek language, that has both the Greek Dictionary and the Greek Thesaurus along with that I have a Latin program installed. I also have a Messianic Greek Bible. And I'm telling you, the Scripture you guys are quoting is wrong. But hey, trust your online stuff, it's cool. No wonder sometimes you guys come up with some of the most off the wall stuff..

Hi Atonement,
I am not using a translation program. My point is that the Hebrew ideas about 'Nephesh' have been distorted by the influence of pagan Greek thinking.

 

[TanNinety]

Before going off on a tangent about whose interpretation of greek and hebrew is right, I have taken the "traditional"(for lack of a better word if there is. without sounding to label anyone) definition of the ideas you have presented. I am discussing scripture based on traditional understanding of soul and body. I have put forth some questions below. Anyone care to address them?

Man is body, and soul. Man's body will die...it is appointed unto man once to die. But, I believe that Scripture teaches that his soul/spirit/life(?) only sleeps.
So, they are very dead in body...and in soul, though I believe their soul is conscious, as in asleep, until they are resurrected unto judgement for the eternal death that awaits them. I think the deadness of man being a final state of non-existence is error, and there is no pattern for it at all in Scripture. Verses that say the dead know nothing to no force me to conclude this at all. The dead know nothing in their sleep

Let me quickly recap the illogicality of conclusions this will lead to. If I get it wrong, point me to my error.

You define:
Life: Attaching soul into the body.
Death: separation of soul from body.
Resurrection: Life after Death i.e., Attaching soul into the body from where it has been previously separated from.

What happens to the justified?
Eternal Life: Believers are resurrected. Similar to the resurrection of Jesus, which most won’t deny was physical bodily resurrection.

What happens to the unjustified?
Eternal Death: Wicked are resurrected, and their resurrected bodies are thrown in lake of fire where the fire is unquenchable and the worm dieth not for an eternity.

Eternal life = Eternal death = Resurrection = attachment of soul back into body (only a change in place {new earth/lake of fire} of where the final product is placed).

BUT, death is defined as separation of soul from body. But eternal death is attachment of soul back into the body. Is eternal death different from death? WHY?

If only souls of the wicked are thrown in the lake of fire, show me scripture that supports this, because my guess was the wicked are resurrected and then thrown into the fire according to scripture.

Consider Mark 9:45-49 (KJV)45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."

You can clearly see even Jesus says your BODY is cast into the hell. Now if this body is never destroyed ..for this body to have conscious torment it has its soul ..so in hell we have body+soul ..and by your definition life is body+soul. So the wicked are eternally living in hell/lake of fire. But God says eternal life is a gift to the righteous. How do you reconcile it?

 

[lovely]

Hi Tan,

First of all, thanks for getting back on topic. I was also trying to discuss this in simple terms of body and soul to keep it things on track because the topic interests me, and I want to learn about it more.

Tan wrote:

You can clearly see even Jesus says your BODY is cast into the hell. Now if this body is never destroyed ..for this body to have conscious torment it has its soul ..so in hell we have body+soul ..and by your definition life is body+soul. So the wicked are eternally living in hell/lake of fire. But God says eternal life is a gift to the righteous. How do you reconcile it?

We are carnal minded, and we tend not to apply terms like this in a spiritual manner, until the Holy Spirit teaches us to think in those terms. It took my husband dying for me to really think in eternal terms on this topic. I was moved into another dimension of knowing this in a change of perspective, rather than just a passive understanding. (I hope that makes sense.) When I think of life and death now, it's in eternal terms automatically, and it wasn't before.

All men will die. I will die as a believer, and others as unbelievers. Let's call this physical life and death. Then there is life is Christ. As a believer, I have already passed from death to life. Those without Christ, are in death...they are dead now, and in need of life through Christ. So let's call this spiritual life and death, which also takes place here, but the results are beyond this life. So, if there are two aspects of life and death, then why, as a believer, only think in terms of the one?

All men, who have died physically both believers, and unbelievers, will be resurrected for the purpose of judgement.

Jesus was always painting us pictures of spiritual things to come. One of those things involves judgement. Romans 2 says: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

All men, who have died physically both believers, and unbelievers, will be resurrected unto judgement.

Believers (those who passed into life in this world, born again) alive in Christ, will be judged and then pardoned, and then free to be with God in eternity. Life for all eternity.

Unbelievers (Those who did not passed into life in this world) dead in sin, will be judged, and then sentenced, and then the sentence will be carried out for all eternity. Death for all eternity.

It is appointed unto man once to die...ALL men, even believers. So, life and death are more than just the physical, or even the resurrected state...life and death are the pardon and sentence.

I believe that the meaning of the word life is the salvation of the soul, and the meaning of the word death is the damnation of the soul. I believe that life and death here are a picture of those spiritual things. Just as Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, and Nicodemus took it literally, I think we tend to do the same thing concerning the death part of the issue. Certainly our bodies will die, but they will also be resurrected unto life or death, but those terms define something else altogether when applied at this point. Christ is simply using this parable of carnal things, to define for us those things beyond this life.

I don't know what else to say, really, but that is how I reconcile your last question, and I think it is Scriptural, though, simple in explanation probably. If you can show me Scripture to the contrary, I am open to it. I just want to be a disciple of Christ.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Oscar3]

Hi Atonement,
I am not using a translation program. My point is that the Hebrew ideas about 'Nephesh' have been distorted by the influence of pagan Greek thinking.

Well.
this explains allot. Perhaps you should invest one and then you will stop making all those interpretaion errors

 

[jgredline]

Lovely
I Gotta tell you. I love your style and your post. Your writing style and manner of speech is very much like my wifes. My Wife is an AWSOME bible teacher.mY wife taught the adult sunday school class for women for about 10 years, now she is involved more with missions. I tell her to join and come join us, but she does not have the time. I wish she would join the forum.

Then again she might be rebuking me online : (just kidding)

But she really is good..

 

[guibox]

All men will die. I will die as a believer, and others as unbelievers. Let's call this physical life and death. Then there is life is Christ. As a believer, I have already passed from death to life. Those without Christ, are in death...they are dead now, and in need of life through Christ. So let's call this spiritual life and death, which also takes place here, but the results are beyond this life. So, if there are two aspects of life and death, then why, as a believer, only think in terms of the one?

I have to make comment on this view here for I am seeing it becoming more and more prevalent in people's views on their definition of 'death' in the afterlife.

The premise is this:

"Because we are 'spiritually dead' and Christ makes us alive, then those wicked are 'spiritually dead' so when the Bible says 'death' it means spiritually death but they can still be alive."

As nice as this sounds, there are illogical fallacies attached to it.

1) Even though we may be 'spiritually dead' we are still ALIVE. Hence, our spiritual death is not contingent on our nature of life.

2) Therefore, our being 'spiritually dead' cannot carry over into the afterlife as BECOMING immortal. It must exist in whatever 'nature' we have in the afterlife.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

What you are doing is separating the two natures ('spiritual death' and being 'physically alive') in this life, saying that one can still be spiritually dead but alive, but making them THE SAME in the afterlife. You are assuming that one not only defines the other, but BECOMES the other after I physically die.

This is illogical.

If I am spiritually dead but still alive, I have not suffered the full wages of sin for sin is contrasted with 'life'. Romans 6:23 is not talking about my physical life or death for we all suffer the same fate. It is talking about the afterlife.

So though I may be 'spiritually dead' but still living, this 'deadness' or 'life' carries over into the afterlife in our second nature: for the righteous, eternal life; for the wicked: death.

Life and death are consummately fulfilled in eternity at the resurrection and judgment.

 

[Oscar3]

If I am spiritually dead but still alive, I have not suffered the full wages of sin for sin is contrasted with 'life'. Romans 6:23 is not talking about my physical life or death for we all suffer the same fate. It is talking about the afterlife.
quote]

6:23 Paul explains that sin results in death, but God gives the gift of eternal life. Most often this verse has been used as a promise of regeneration. The phrase eternal life is used 42 times in the New Testament, and it usually refers to something we receive as a gift at the moment of belief in the gospel (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:40). But 11 of these 42 times, eternal life is presented as something to be attained (v. 22; 2:7; Matt. 19:16, 29; Mark 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25; 18:18; John 12:25, 26; Gal. 6:8). Thus we learn from the Bible that eternal life is not simply a static entity. It is a dynamic and growing relationship with Jesus Christ Himself (see John 10:10; 17:3). Through living in faith and obedience, Christians can fully enjoy God's free gift of eternal life.

By pastor Chuck Smith


Guibox
This is the best advice I can you.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[CP_Mike]

Well.
this explains allot. Perhaps you should invest one and then you will stop making all those interpretaion errors

Hi Oscar,
Please show me from the verses and material that the interpretation is in error.

Example, God says in Leviticus 17:11 the the soul (nephesh) is the blood.

Your intepretation?

 

[lovely]

Javier, thank you for your kind compliment. The Lord bless you.

Guibox, I did not have enough time to give your post good consideration. I am going to look at again later today. The Lord bless you.

 

[jgredline]

Hi Oscar,
Please show me from the verses and material that the interpretation is in error.

Example, God says in Leviticus 17:11 the the soul (nephesh) is the blood.

Your intepretation?

CP
I know the question was directed to Oscar, but I could not help but comment on this verse, since this verse is really the heart of the Gospel.
The eating of blood was forbidden. The blood was for atonement, not for nourishment. “The life of the flesh is in the blood†(v. 11). The principle behind atonement is life for life. Since the wages of sin is death, symbolized by the shedding of blood, so “without the shedding of blood is no remission.†Forgiveness does not come because the penalty of sin is excused, but because it is transferred to a sacrifice whose lifeblood is poured out. Verse 11 is one of the key verses in Leviticus and should be memorized. When an animal was slaughtered, its blood was drained immediately. An animal that died accidentally was unclean if its blood was not drained right away.
You are so busy trying to prove you have the correct theology that as you go through these verses, you are missing the richness of them.

 

[TanNinety]

While I agree with guibox, I have this to add:
Thank you lovely, and I pray that the Lord lead us to His truth in this discussion. If nothing works out, we can agree to disagree.

It took my husband dying for me to really think in eternal terms on this topic. I was moved into another dimension of knowing this in a change of perspective, rather than just a passive understanding.

I am sorry for your loss. But be of good cheer, God will bring His family together in a grand finale.

All men will die. I will die as a believer, and others as unbelievers. Let's call this physical life and death. Then there is life is Christ. As a believer, I have already passed from death to life. Those without Christ, are in death...they are dead now, and in need of life through Christ. So let's call this spiritual life and death, which also takes place here, but the results are beyond this life. So, if there are two aspects of life and death, then why, as a believer, only think in terms of the one?

Physical death, plenty of evidence for it in the bible. Spiritual death, on the other hand I believe, the bible has nothing to say about it. May be you can try to define what spiritual death is with scripture? I understand physical death, the body dies and returns to dust. So, similarly can we say at spiritual death the spirit dies and returns to non-existence?

You have defined spiritual life and death as people with and without Christ. So the spiritual death definition becomes allegorical. It is only a symbolism of the choice of a person rather than the state of a person’s soul.

You have brought up Nicodemus and born again. I understand being “born again†as resurrection, mainly because Jesus expected Nicodemus to already know what it meant based on OT scripture. And the only “born again†scripture that I found in OT was about resurrection of the righteous.

All men, who have died physically both believers, and unbelievers, will be resurrected for the purpose of judgement. Believers (those who passed into life in this world, born again) alive in Christ, will be judged and then pardoned, and then free to be with God in eternity. Life for all eternity. Unbelievers (Those who did not passed into life in this world) dead in sin, will be judged, and then sentenced, and then the sentence will be carried out for all eternity. Death for all eternity.

This sounds good. But ..

I believe that the meaning of the word life is the salvation of the soul, and the meaning of the word death is the damnation of the soul.

This is where things get not so biblical. It is hard to find scripture that suggests the above idea of life and death. Or may be it is me who missed it. Can you look up scripture that defines life and death as you have put forth?

It is appointed unto man once to die

But this leads us into a contradiction because we are making men taste physical and then spiritual death, which makes the wicked die twice.

I think we need to firmly establish what spiritual death is from scripture if it really exists without being allegorical, then we can move ahead with the discussion.

The Lord bless you too.

 

[guibox]

6:23 Paul explains that sin results in death, but God gives the gift of eternal life. Most often this verse has been used as a promise of regeneration. The phrase eternal life is used 42 times in the New Testament, and it usually refers to something we receive as a gift at the moment of belief in the gospel (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:40). But 11 of these 42 times, eternal life is presented as something to be attained (v. 22; 2:7; Matt. 19:16, 29; Mark 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25; 18:18; John 12:25, 26; Gal. 6:8). Thus we learn from the Bible that eternal life is not simply a static entity. It is a dynamic and growing relationship with Jesus Christ Himself (see John 10:10; 17:3). Through living in faith and obedience, Christians can fully enjoy God's free gift of eternal life.

By pastor Chuck Smith

I am in complete agreement with Dr.Chuck. The issue here is not the issue of 'life' but what 'death' means. If 'death' means 'eternal separation of the conscious soul in eternal torment' then the fullness and literal contrast between teh wicked and the righteous has been made simply into a qualitative term (of which the bible doesn't support), instead of a quantitative term which the Bible does support.

Though man can be 'spiritually dead', as Tan pointed out, it is not related to the nature of the 'soul' or 'life'. I can be born again but I cannot live eternally right now. not until the resurrection do I attain immortality. The wicked can be 'spiritually dead' but that doesn't mean once they physically die, this 'spiritual death' automatically becomes 'eternal consciousness'.

This is the fallacy of trying to use the 'spiritually dead' to mean that the wicked will continue to live on after life.

The nature of man is MORTAL. This happened when we sinned. ONLY Christ can give IMMORTALITY and this is done through His DEATH and RESURRECTION. Those who choose not to accept this gift do not "pass from death into life" They remain 'dead in their sins' and will 'perish' in their graves as 1 Corinthians 15 points out clearly.

There is no room for eternal conscious immortality for the wicked. It is not in the scriptures and cannot be supported by them.

 

[CP_Mike]

CP
I know the question was directed to Oscar, but I could not help but comment on this verse, since this verse is really the heart of the Gospel.
The eating of blood was forbidden. The blood was for atonement, not for nourishment. “The life of the flesh is in the blood†(v. 11). The principle behind atonement is life for life. Since the wages of sin is death, symbolized by the shedding of blood, so “without the shedding of blood is no remission.†Forgiveness does not come because the penalty of sin is excused, but because it is transferred to a sacrifice whose lifeblood is poured out. Verse 11 is one of the key verses in Leviticus and should be memorized. When an animal was slaughtered, its blood was drained immediately. An animal that died accidentally was unclean if its blood was not drained right away.
You are so busy trying to prove you have the correct theology that as you go through these verses, you are missing the richness of them.

Hi JG,
This scripture is a pointer to what 'Nephesh' is from a Hebrew perspective and not the Greek idea.
I have stated all along that the bible view of 'soul' is linked to life, the blood and the whole person in a physical form in all these threads. It has nothing to do that the definition of soul is an immaterial substance that survives death and carries our thoughts, memories and personality with it.

 

[jgredline]

Hi JG,
This scripture is a pointer to what 'Nephesh' is from a Hebrew perspective and not the Greek idea.
I have stated all along that the bible view of 'soul' is linked to life, the blood and the whole person in a physical form in all these threads. It has nothing to do that the definition of soul is an immaterial substance that survives death and carries our thoughts, memories and personality with it.

Mike
If I may ask a personal question.
Are you jewish?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg. Mike believes like a Saducee.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[TanNinety]

Jg. Mike believes like a Saducee.

Can you please substantiate that statement or is it better for the participants of this discussion to ignore the vain ramblings?

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Jg. Mike believes like a Saducee.
May God bless, golfjack

This is creepy.:o
I was thinking the very same thing. This is why I asked. My next question was going to be if he believes in the ressurection and demons. :o

 

[TanNinety]

Re: reply

This is creepy.:o
I was thinking the very same thing. This is why I asked. My next question was going to be if he believes in the ressurection and demons. :o

What is creepy is, Sput, guibox, Drew and myself agree with CP_Mike and after few pages of laying out hebrew concepts on life and soul, he is the only one who gets indentified as believing as the saducees?

On a side note. You believe in heaven and hell, does that mean you believe as a hindu? May be my next question to you should be do you pray to a cow?

 

[guibox]

What is funny is that the Sadducees denied the resurrection. This is why Jesus said the words He did to them 'I am not the God of the dead but of the living'. The Sadducees believed when you died you died. Jesus then told them of the resurrection. The dead are not truly dead for 'death' is an eternal state. They will be resurrected by His power. He reiterates this to Martha in John 6:40, 47

"I am the way the truth and the life. He who believes in me shall never die. Believeth thou this?...And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that whosoever should believe the Son shall have life and I will raise Him up at the last day"

To Jesus and Paul, receiving 'eternal life' was realized and consummately fulfilled at the resurrection and not at death.

The Sadducees denied this truth of life in the resurrection.

I have no idea why they would consider CP a 'Sadducee' when he believes that the 'nephesh' is the whole man that goes down to the grave and is raised back up like Daniel and Job believed. The Sads denied this.