The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[GodsGrace]

The children of God are scattered worldwide as in John 11:49 -52.
Propitiation is only made on behalf of believers. As the gospel goes worldwide and God effectually draws the elect to saving faith propitiation is applied to them turning away God's wrath from them.

Apparently you believe in the theory of penal substitution.
I do not.

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for everyone that ever lived, past, present and future.
Even some calvinist theologians agree with this.

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
By one man, Adam, mankind was lost to satan.
By one man, Jesus, mankind was redeemed from satan.
So that now, each person has the ability to believe or not believe,
and to be totally freed from the grip of satan.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God does not effectually draw.
God draws everyone in the sense that His grace and mercy fall on everyone that ever lived.


Romans 3:22-25
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

Titus 2:11
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people...

Matthew 9:13
13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Psalm 145:9
9The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.
Luke 6:36
36“Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.”

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe you're true what you said you don't understand how they come to these truths . You are set to oppose whatever's presented you're not even trying to understand it if you try and understand it you might begin to put some of the puzzle pieces together

I said that I don't understand calvinism because it makes no sense and do not know how anyone could come to believe that heretical teaching.

I understand calvinism very well.
This is why I cannot agree with it.

There are no puzzle pieces to put together.
This is the God of the bible:

5 men are drowning.
God throws down 5 ropes.
3 take hold of the ropes and 2 do not.
3 are saved and 2 drown.

This is the God of calvinism:

5 men are drowning.
God throws down 3 ropes.
3 get saved and
2 drown.

Which seems more like the God of the bible to you?
The one that purposefully makes 2 drown?

If so, please explain to me why Jesus had to die to save the world??

 

[Iconoclast]

Apparently you believe in the theory of penal substitution.
I do not.

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for everyone that ever lived, past, present and future.
Even some calvinist theologians agree with this.

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
By one man, Adam, mankind was lost to satan.
By one man, Jesus, mankind was redeemed from satan.
So that now, each person has the ability to believe or not believe,
and to be totally freed from the grip of satan.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God does not effectually draw.
God draws everyone in the sense that His grace and mercy fall on everyone that ever lived.


Romans 3:22-25
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

Titus 2:11
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people...

Matthew 9:13
13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Psalm 145:9
9The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.
Luke 6:36
36“Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.”

Psa is the clear biblical teaching.
The ransom theory is totally defective.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is not one verse that proves or suggest that free will exists. Free will is a false philosophical concept that people try to foist upon the scripture. Men are self willed but their will is bound by the nature so people go to a false philosophical concept as the default position to avoid the truth of the doctrines of grace

Free will can be discussed philosophically - which I find that calvinists LOVE to do.
They have all sorts of complicated ways to describe our will and why it's not free.

Of course, calvinism lives or dies on the concept of free will.
All of the acronym of TULIP lives on the fact that man does not have free will.
If John Calvin believed man had free will, non of his theories would have held up.

So, free will is the enemy of calvinism.

Here's a question for you:

If GOD gives you a choice,
how does that NOT denote free will?

IOW, If God gives you a choice, it must surely mean that you have free will.
Otherwise why would God give you a choice? To play games with you?

How do you explain Jesus crying over Jerusalem?
Didn't He KNOW that they would not come to Him?

Matthew 23:37

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


Jesus says that Jerusalem was UNWILLING to come to Him.
Did God Father forget to tell God Jesus that it was Father that had predestined Jerusalem to not go to Jesus?

 

[Iconoclast]

I said that I don't understand calvinism because it makes no sense and do not know how anyone could come to believe that heretical teaching.

I understand calvinism very well.
This is why I cannot agree with it.

There are no puzzle pieces to put together.
This is the God of the bible:

5 men are drowning.
God throws down 5 ropes.
3 take hold of the ropes and 2 do not.
3 are saved and 2 drown.

This is the God of calvinism:

5 men are drowning.
God throws down 3 ropes.
3 get saved and
2 drown.

Which seems more like the God of the bible to you?
The one that purposefully makes 2 drown?

If so, please explain to me why Jesus had to die to save the world??

In The Bible the 5 men are all dead already. God chooses those he intends to save and brings them to life. You think you understand Calvinism but I'm pretty sure you do not I will be willing to help if you ask Sincere questions you might not like the answers but they will be biblical.
I am not sure you have heard the teaching from someone who actually holds to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Psa is the clear biblical teaching.
The ransom theory is totally defective.

Are you just going to make statements or are you going to explain WHY
you believe as you do?

Why is the ransom theory defective?

 

[GodsGrace]

In The Bible the 5 men are all that God chooses those he intends to save and bring them to life. You think you understand Calvinism but I'm pretty sure you do not I will be willing to help if you ask Sincere questions you might not like the answers but they will be biblical.
I am not sure you have heard the teaching from someone who actually holds to it.

How does John Calvin sound to you?
Have YOU read his institutes?

 

[Iconoclast]

Free will can be discussed philosophically - which I find that calvinists LOVE to do.
They have all sorts of complicated ways to describe our will and why it's not free.

Of course, calvinism lives or dies on the concept of free will.
All of the acronym of TULIP lives on the fact that man does not have free will.
If John Calvin believed man had free will, non of his theories would have held up.

So, free will is the enemy of calvinism.

Here's a question for you:

If GOD gives you a choice,
how does that NOT denote free will?

IOW, If God gives you a choice, it must surely mean that you have free will.
Otherwise why would God give you a choice? To play games with you?

How do you explain Jesus crying over Jerusalem?
Didn't He KNOW that they would not come to Him?

Matthew 23:37

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


Jesus says that Jerusalem was UNWILLING to come to Him.
Did God Father forget to tell God Jesus that it was Father that had predestined Jerusalem to not go to Jesus?

Notice it was the religious leaders who were unwilling to allow the people to come they hid the truth from them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you just going to make statements or are you going to explain WHY
you believe as you do?

Why is the ransom theory defective?

Satan is not a control of anything, God is. Paul In Romans 1:16 one says it's the wrath of God that's revealed from heaven not the wrath of satan.
Jesus was sent by the Father to accomplish redemption and satisfy the wrath of God against sinners. The Bible speaks of direct substitution as Jesus died a covenant death on behalf of all the Father gave to him.

 

[Iconoclast]

How does John Calvin sound to you?
Have YOU read his institutes?

Calvin is not an easy read at all I get my teaching from scripture mostly from Jesus and the apostles and then the prophet spoke of the things that Jesus and the apostles unfolded. The doctrines of grace can be shown from the Gospels alone and the book of Acts
I believed in the biblical truths of election and predestination before I heard any formal terms and historic theology.
I did not understand fully, but the truth was quite obvious.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for your questions.The truth delights to be investigated.I can only remove some obstacles for you.
It is the Spirit alone that can reveal truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvin is not an easy read at all I get my teaching from scripture mostly from Jesus and the apostles and then the prophet spoke of the things that Jesus and the apostles unfolded. The doctrines of grace can be shown from the Gospels alone and the book of Acts
I believed in the biblical truths of election and predestination before I heard any formal terms and historic theology.
I did not understand fully, but the truth was quite obvious.

I'm on a phone right now,
You use terms that are used in the reformed faith.
Like the doctrine of grace.
What is grace in your understanding and why would a God of grace not send down 5 ropes?

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvin is not an easy read at all I get my teaching from scripture mostly from Jesus and the apostles and then the prophet spoke of the things that Jesus and the apostles unfolded. The doctrines of grace can be shown from the Gospels alone and the book of Acts
I believed in the biblical truths of election and predestination before I heard any formal terms and historic theology.
I did not understand fully, but the truth was quite obvious.

Maybe election and predestination mean something different?

 

[GodsGrace]

Notice it was the religious leaders who were unwilling to allow the people to come they hid the truth from them.

The point is that Jesus said the were UNWILLING.

This means they had the free will to go to Jesus or not.

I believe you know that maybe 95% of Jesus' disciples were Jewish. The ones that wanted to go to Him did. In Jerusalem they were not willing...

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm on a phone right now,
You use terms that are used in the reformed faith.
Like the doctrine of grace.
What is grace in your understanding and why would a God of grace not send down 5 ropes?

Grace is unmerited favor in the place of God's wrath.
In Genesis 18:25 the statement is made that God the God of the whole Earth will do right. So I have to trust that God's wisdom and omnipotence is Great and he never makes mistakes and his plan is perfect according to his own wisdom for his own glory. To say that God is perfect means he cannot gain or lose wisdom and everything he does and everything he purposed to do is completely perfect .
it cannot be bettered or improved upon in anyway .
Do you agree with the statement that God is perfect, And we could always trust him to do what is right?

 

[Iconoclast]

Maybe election and predestination mean something different?

Election is simply God choosing a multitude of sinners to be saved not for anything in themselves but according to God's own pleasure and for his glory . Predestination is once the sinners are brought to faith they are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son as it read in Romans 8 :29- 30 which is called the golden chain of redemption

 

[Iconoclast]

The point is that Jesus said the were UNWILLING.

This means they had the free will to go to Jesus or not.

I believe you know that maybe 95% of Jesus' disciples were Jewish. The ones that wanted to go to Him did. In Jerusalem they were not willing...

All men have a will The Bible says men are self willed. That does not mean that will is free they are bound because of sin when Adam sinned , sin and death came to ALL men, to the whole human race .
Death is alienation from the life of God
Dead in sin the word is necros which means a corpse .
They are a spiritual corpse. That's why he goes on to say and you have the quickened who were dead in sin but God who is rich in mercy saved us.

 

[Iconoclast]

The point is that Jesus said the were UNWILLING.

This means they had the free will to go to Jesus or not.

I believe you know that maybe 95% of Jesus' disciples were Jewish. The ones that wanted to go to Him did. In Jerusalem they were not willing...

Those who went to Him were the elect remnant.
Paul quotes Isa.1:9...in Rom9:27-29
The elect remnant,the elect seed.The Apostles were quite comfortable using the terms elect, ordained, seed,predestined.
Thats why I say they wete Calvinists before Calvin was even born.
It is straight bible teaching.

 

[GodsGrace]

Satan is not a control of anything, God is. Paul In Romans 1:16 one says it's the wrath of God that's revealed from heaven not the wrath of satan.
Jesus was sent by the Father to accomplish redemption and satisfy the wrath of God against sinners. The Bible speaks of direct substitution as Jesus died a covenant death on behalf of all the Father gave to him.

The substitution is part of most of the atonement theories.
I also find that each one is correct in one way or another.
Actually, I don't care for the penal substitution theory for this reason:

The penal substitution theory is a result of the reformation.
The cross is still seen as satisfaction as in the Satisfaction Theory but it focuses more
on God's wrath, whereas the Satisfaction Theory is understood more to be a satisfaction of
God's justice.

I guess I believe more that God is just than He is wrathful.
However, He is both, of course.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who went to Him were the elect remnant.
Paul quotes Isa.1:9...in Rom9:27-29
The elect remnant,the elect seed.The Apostles were quite comfortable using the terms elect, ordained, seed,predestined.
Thats why I say they wete Calvinists before Calvin was even born.
It is straight bible teaching.

Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps the elect means the Jews or Israelites?
I'm sure you've heard of the SEED OF ABRAHAM.

The remnant are those Israelites that were not destroyed by another nation,
or instance the Babylonians or the Assyrians.
Isaiah 1:9 speaks to the King of Judah, probably Jotham, and tries to warn them of the coming attack of Assyria.
8The daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard,
Like a watchman’s hut in a cucumber field, like a besieged city.

9Unless the LORD of hosts
Had left us a few survivors,
We would be like Sodom,
We would be like Gomorrah.
The above is about the nation of Judah and Israel. (kingdoms).
It is not about personal salvation.

Romans 9:27-30
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”


30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,


The above is also about nations.
It's about how God is keeping His promise to allow the Gentiles into the fold,
and not only the Jews.

Paul is comparing the Gentiles way to righteousness to the Jews way to righteousness.