Iconoclast
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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Correct, people have hijacked believing and make it a condition one must meet in order to come into salvation, yet believing is the result of having already partook of salvation. In Jn 3:16 those believing are the ones God so loved and gave His Son for, they believe because of that.
I believe the drawing of Jn 12:32 and 6:44 is the initial evidence of the new birth conversion
Amen, they come to God by Him. That is by His Death for them, the consequences of that bring them to God in a conversion experience 1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
If we come to the True God in a conversion experience, we must give all the glory to the fact that Christ suffered and died for our sins as our Surety
You use the Rom 3 verse about "no man" out of its context.
Plenty of folks have sought after God.
It is written..."But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matt 6:33)
Jesus doesn't command the impossible when He tells us to seek.
And..."But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Heb 11:6)
The writer of Hebrews tells us what comes from seeking.
Paul's Rom 3 use of the OT verses that cast aspersions are directed at the Jews who mistakenly believed that adherence to the Law made them better than any unbeliever.
It was meant to "even the ground", so to speak, between Jew and Gentile.
Both needed a Redeemer, in spite of the Law.
Ezekiel 34 is about the prophecy against the shepherds of Israel. The shepherds were more concerned for their own selves and did not feed their flock/congregation.
Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.
God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.
The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.
God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.
The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Gentiles Grafted In
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Sorry, but the doctrines of Christ are not nicknamed Calvinism. It is not the doctrine of Calvinism or any of the 5000 + religions in the world that claim they are the only one who holds all truth, but only the doctrines of Christ Jesus for what God gave Jesus to speak and do as it is written.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
It's not what a man speaks, but what the Holy Spirit through man wants to teach us.
No, many of us oppose some of the doctrines of Calvinism who claim only they have all truths. There are no other doctrines then that of the doctrines of Christ.
I will let wondering answer for herself, but this stands to be only your opinion about freewill and not supported with scripture.
The saving results of the death of Christ is that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16. It's just as simple as that as not everyone will turn back to God even though He would hope that none should perish, but knows that many have damned their own selves.
May I ask why you use Iconoclast as a user name since it means a person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions. I have noticed since you became a member this is what you do towards others who oppose what you believe. I would suggest you go back and read the Terms of Service, especially 1.1; 1.3 and 1.4 that you agreed with when becoming a member.
To all by the grace of God that is freely given through faith that is Christ Jesus is accepted by whosoever will believe.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
How can anyone dispute what already has been written. Truth does not come by Calvinism, but by the very word of God.
forhisglory
Thats wrong.
Thats wrong.
If you want to disagree with John 3:5-7, 16; Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8-10 then you are climbing up another way as Jesus is the way, the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father, but by me, John 14:6. If one does not turn back to God then they are lost from Him forever.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Iconoclast
Member
Hello Hopeful,
Paul quoted psalm 14 in Romans 3.
He did use it out of context but rather used it to point out that God looked and saw no man, jew or gentile seek God...no not one.
Those who seek God are being or have been saving drawn by The Father,by the Spirit, to the Son.
Iconoclast
Member
Hello FHG,
Thanks for taking time to respond to my posts. Ezekiel 34 in part was against the fall Shepherds the false priests and teachers in Israel. But the way I read it 17 times God himself says he's going to seek and save that which is lost he identifies them as His sheep that they're scattered they've been miss taught and abused and he himself is going to seek and save his sheep Jesus is identified as the Good Shepherd the great Shepherd the Good Shepherd and John 10 and in Luke 19 he says the son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost. Of course it was spoken to the Old Testament nation of Israel because we learn in Romans 3 that they alone of all the nations had the Oracle so the written word of God you offered a lot of good verses on the history and all that but the key thing to remember is Jesus when he comes in the Incarnation he's going to the Cross to accomplish Redemption but he's also performing the second Exodus the true and new and the second exodus. What do I mean in John 6 he says Moses gave you Mana I'm the true manner that's come down from heaven he says in John 7 out of your belly will flow rivers of Living Water you know almost like as Moses had the water come out of the Rock and 1st Corinthians 5:7 Christ Our Passover is sacrificed for us at the Transfiguration He spoke of His Exodus. He is forming and is the new and true Israel the Covenant Son and Us in him so he's the head with a body .
It's a new Exodus.
It's the Fulfillment of the type of the first Exodus which was a historical event but now this is a superior and true and final Exodus. This in and of itself is a whole thread topic but I'm just trying to give you an idea of how you can see it one way you know the historical narrative and you could also see what's being explained and taught .
All of the Old Testament prophets obviously pointed to Jesus that's why in Luke 24:25-27
when Jesus does that Bible study with the apostles he he goes through the whole Old Testament and shows how it spoke of Him.
Thanks for your post.
Iconoclast
Member
You can say that the doctrines of Christ are not nicknamed Calvinism if you want but the fact is just from the gospels alone the teaching that is known as Calvinism can be clearly shown without any doubt. Now what has happened over time is people attack the teaching and so you get a lot of people teaching false things about it making caricatures and Straw Men but the actual teaching stands the test of time that's why all the reformers all the Puritans and many to the current day Spurgeon and all these people they all saw these truths they all the historic confessions of Faith were based on these truths not the other false ideas that are being offered today. Most people in the churches now have only heard the false ideas and attacks rather than hearing the truth actually spoken of and declared clearly. I don't mind if people have questions wanted debated want to disagree with it doesn't bother me at all I try to help if I can if the people get hostile I will answer directly and kind of shut it down yes but if the people want to really discuss and look into it and have good questions and sincere questions they'll get us sincere answer in which I offer scripture and try to plant seed that between themself in God they can sort that out
I don't agree.
Many, including myself, have sought after God.
Then you must agree some are seeking.
Paul's whole point was that the Jews, who thought they were better than Gentiles because they had the Law, were just as guilty as the Gentiles and in need of a Redeemer.
Iconoclast
Member
We can openly discuss these things it's not meant to be kept a secret or mysterious it's openly declared and openly believed and I don't see where there's any harm you can raise whatever questions and whatever else you want to do because I don't think you can be consistent with your answers and I'm not saying that in the Hostile way I'm just saying I've talked with many people posted with many people on these issues and eventually they either change their mind or they just go away and you know call names and everything else
Iconoclast
Member
Now once again what I write and say about free will it's not my opinion it's fact if you Google the term free will you find that even Google will tell you it's a philosophical term it's not a biblical term. There are 17 times in the scripture when the words free and Will are put together and in no case is a talking about man's will being free it was talking about offerings what will call Free Will offerings like they were not commanded by the law as the other tithes and offerings were these were if you wanted to offer something without it being you know in the law without it being commanded you could freely offer that's what it was.
There's no place in scripture where man is said to have a free will .
Matter of fact Jesus told those religious Jews inJohn 8 that they were Bound by sin in Romans 6 it could be clearly seen that before a person was saved the word free is in there but it says you were free from righteousness like in other words you couldn't do what's righteous Romans 8:7 says the carnal mind is enmity against God not subject to the law of God neither indeed can it be so this assumption that Free Will is readily available and all men have free will and they they can do things to please God is a false carnal assumption not a Biblical truth.
Yes I know the Bible says to choose but that that has nothing to do with your will it has to do with your nature you're going to choose according to your nature and God says that the unsaved cannot understand the things of the spirit of God they cannot do anything that pleases God so that's a whole again a separate discussion now. You asked about my username iconoclast somewhere along the line I read that iconoclasts would go around and when they saw statues relics and idols and pictures or images of what was supposed to be Jesus they went around destroying them .
Now was that the most spiritual thing to do no but I like this spirit I like the idea that it wasn't just institutions they were attacking they were attacking the False Church and the idolatry and everything else they saw they reacted strongly against it .
I like that. I like the idea of when people I've seen on this forum people question God suggest that God caused man to sin,
try to blame God for man's sin,
use free will every other sentence this to me is borderline idolatry
so when I see that I react against it I'm not reacting against people who might see things different or oh they they believe differently from me so I'm going to attack them no.
I'm going to react when people blaspheme the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ the Triune God and suggest that God is anything but Holy
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Iconoclast
Member
The only ones seeking are those being drawn.jn6:37-44.
God seeks those who are His.
All that are given....will come.
Acts. 13:48
As many as were ordained to life believed
Iconoclast
Member
Jn 3:15
Jn3:16
Deepen your knowledge of Scripture.
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
Read full chapter
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 2&version=YLT
Jn3:16
Deepen your knowledge of Scripture.
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
Read full chapter
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 2&version=YLT