The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[GodsGrace]

Election is simply God choosing a multitude of sinners to be saved not for anything in themselves but according to God's own pleasure and for his glory . Predestination is once the sinners are brought to faith they are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son as it read in Romans 8 :29- 30 which is called the golden chain of redemption

Election usually has to do with the nation of Israel of with the choosing for a ministry.
Here's a question which no one has ever replied to satisfactorily (that it made any sense):
You say that God chooses for HIS GLORY.
How does it give glory to God if He only chooses some and the rest are left to spend eternity in hell?
How is that justice?

I agree with you about what predestination is.
Do you also believe OR believe that God predestines every little thing that happens here on earth?

 

[GodsGrace]

All men have a will The Bible says men are self willed. That does not mean that will is free they are bound because of sin when Adam sinned , sin and death came to ALL men, to the whole human race .
Death is alienation from the life of God
Dead in sin the word is necros which means a corpse .
They are a spiritual corpse. That's why he goes on to say and you have the quickened who were dead in sin but God who is rich in mercy saved us.

I agree that before salvation we are bound by satan's will for us and we are slaves to him.
Romans 6:16 tell us that we are slaves to the one to whom we give our obedience.

It DOES say that we GIVE OUR OBEDIENCE.

We PRESENT ourselves to the one we will obey.
I don't read there that God drags us to Himself of the enemy.

And,yes, we are spiritually dead.
But where does it state that we are unable to present ourselves to God?
I just don't see it.

 

[Hopeful]

The only ones seeking are those being drawn.jn6:37-44.
God seeks those who are His.
All that are given....will come.
Acts. 13:48
As many as were ordained to life believed

I sought and found what I desired.
It was in Jesus Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

The substitution is part of most of the atonement theories.
I also find that each one is correct in one way or another.
Actually, I don't care for the penal substitution theory for this reason:

The penal substitution theory is a result of the reformation.
The cross is still seen as satisfaction as in the Satisfaction Theory but it focuses more
on God's wrath, whereas the Satisfaction Theory is understood more to be a satisfaction of
God's justice.

I guess I believe more that God is just than He is wrathful.
However, He is both, of course.

Well yeah he is holy and he is just so his wrath is propitiated it's an actual propitiation which means to turn away the wrath of God so Jesus has a divine substitute absorbed that wrath in our place so we can receive the righteousness of God in him his active obedience in being a law keeper is put to our account Meanwhile all of our sins have to be punished or God would not be dressed when the unsaved going to 2nd death they are punished throughout all eternity because they never repent of their sins and they have to suffer the punishment of the wrath of God

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree that before salvation we are bound by satan's will for us and we are slaves to him.
Romans 6:16 tell us that we are slaves to the one to whom we give our obedience.

It DOES say that we GIVE OUR OBEDIENCE.

We PRESENT ourselves to the one we will obey.
I don't read there that God drags us to Himself of the enemy.

And,yes, we are spiritually dead.
But where does it state that we are unable to present ourselves to God?
I just don't see it.

You correctly have went to Roman 6 but pay a little more attention to verse 20 for when you were the servants of sin you were free from righteousness.
in other words the willing bondslave to sin, you were bound by it that's why when we're saved it says verse 17 but God be thanked that you were the servants of sin a willing bond slave of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto you being then made free from sin you became the servants of righteousness .
No the idea is God has to give that new heart and we are transformed and made willing like psalm 1103 says thy people will be willing in the day of thy power .
so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness for when you were the servants of sin you were free from righteousness another words you didn't you didn't do any righteousness and you know what fruit have you've known things of which are now ashamed the end of those things is death.
but now Being made free from sin and become the servants to God you have your fruit unto holiness and have everlasting life so God set you free.
Jesus told those Jews and John 8 if the Son set you free you'll be free indeed .
We are free to serve we are never free to sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree that before salvation we are bound by satan's will for us and we are slaves to him.
Romans 6:16 tell us that we are slaves to the one to whom we give our obedience.

It DOES say that we GIVE OUR OBEDIENCE.

We PRESENT ourselves to the one we will obey.
I don't read there that God drags us to Himself of the enemy.

And,yes, we are spiritually dead.
But where does it state that we are unable to present ourselves to God?
I just don't see it.

It does not say satan...it says slaves to sin,not satan

 

[Iconoclast]

I sought and found what I desired.
It was in Jesus Christ.

Amen to that, we can rejoice in all who come to Jesus.
Later we find out it was Jesus saving us by the unseen work of the Spirit.Ezk36:25-27.
We are given a new heart.
The new heart welcomes scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hopeful,
God does not have "free will".
God is not free to sin
God is not free to change
God is not free to lie
God is not free to do evil

HIS HOLY NATURE does not allow it.

In Heaven we will not be able to sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Amen to that, we can rejoice in all who come to Jesus.
Later we find out it was Jesus saving us by the unseen work of the Spirit.Ezk36:25-27.
We are given a new heart.
The new heart welcomes scripture.

"Knock, and I will answer." (paraphrased Matt 7:8, Luke 11:9)

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,
God does not have "free will".

He has repented of impending actions, so you are not entirely correct.

God is not free to sin
God is not free to change

Again, He has changed on occasion.

God is not free to lie
God is not free to do evil

True, thankfully.

HIS HOLY NATURE does not allow it.
In Heaven we will not be able to sin.

If we have His holy nature we won't sin here either.
I, by the grace of God, have His divine nature here and now.
Rebirth from God's seed was a wonderful thing !

 

[Iconoclast]

"Knock, and I will answer." (paraphrased Matt 7:8, Luke 11:9)

Yes of course.faith and repentence are God given gifts.
No oneknocks who is not enabled by the Spirit.
The gospel is freely offered to all who here the command to repent and believe

 

[Iconoclast]

He has repented of impending actions, so you are not entirely correct.

Again, He has changed on occasion.

True, thankfully.

If we have His holy nature we won't sin here either.
I, by the grace of God, have His divine nature here and now.
Rebirth from God's seed was a wonderful thing !

I'm glad we have partial agreement and I still would like to Push forward a little bit God uses language we can understand they call it anthropomorphic language where God speaks in a way that we understand what hes doing. God is perfect his plan is perfect he never has to change in Malachi 3 :6 says I am God I change not Therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.
And Hebrews 6 speaking about the covenant salvation God is provided for 17 and 18 says we're in God willing more abundantly to show one to the as of the promise the immutability of his counsel Confirmed it by an oath that by 2 immutable things in which it was impossible for God to lie we might have a strong consolation who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us which hope we have as an anchor of the soul while sure and steadfast which enter it into that within the veil

 

[Iconoclast]

He has repented of impending actions, so you are not entirely correct.

Again, He has changed on occasion.

True, thankfully.

If we have His holy nature we won't sin here either.
I, by the grace of God, have His divine nature here and now.
Rebirth from God's seed was a wonderful thing !

We learn from Roman 6 we're saved from the reigning power of sin it doesn't have dominion over us but regrettably was still able to sin as Paul wrote in the 2nd half of Romans 7 and so he declares with the mind he serves the law of God his body is an unredeemed body until hes glorified. He desires to be delivered from remaining sin glorified on the last day

 

[GodsGrace]

Well yeah he is holy and he is just so his wrath is propitiated it's an actual propitiation which means to turn away the wrath of God so Jesus has a divine substitute absorbed that wrath in our place so we can receive the righteousness of God in him his active obedience in being a law keeper is put to our account Meanwhile all of our sins have to be punished or God would not be dressed when the unsaved going to 2nd death they are punished throughout all eternity because they never repent of their sins and they have to suffer the punishment of the wrath of God

OK.
I understand and accept what you believe re penal substitution...
It does have biblical support. No problem.

 

[GodsGrace]

It does not say satan...it says slaves to sin,not satan

Romans 6:16 states that we are slaves OF THE ONE whom we obey.
Besides that, there are two forces in the universe....
One is good: God
One is evil: satan
sorry for the simplicity, but actually it is this simple.

So when we lead a sinful life, we are obeying satan.

But that wasn't my real point.
My point is that Paul said that WE PRESENT OURSELVES...
IOW, we take our very soul, and go to the ONE (as above) that we wish to serve.
It'll be either God or satan.
Choose this day whom you will serve.
Joshua 24:15
We are to CHOOSE whom we will serve.
Does choice denote freedom of the will?

We are slaves to satan until we are set free from him by accepting God and Jesus' sacrifice.
This is why I like the ransom theory....Jesus BUYS US BACK from satan. Satan "stole" us in the Garden,
and Jesus is buying us back.

The point, I think, is that we are able to decide for ourselves who we want to serve: God or satan.
This is why we're told to choose.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes of course.faith and repentence are God given gifts.
No oneknocks who is not enabled by the Spirit.
The gospel is freely offered to all who here the command to repent and believe

I agree with your post above written for Hopeful .

We are certainly given grace...
maybe throughout our lives, maybe at certain times as some believe...
Without grace we can do nothing...just as Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing.

So, yes, we DO need grace to see God.
But doesn't He allow all to have this first grace that He gives to all?
Some will reply to it and others will not.

So, yes, the gospel is offered to all who hear it,
and who repent and believe.
Romans 10:17
17Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

You correctly have went to Roman 6 but pay a little more attention to verse 20 for when you were the servants of sin you were free from righteousness.
in other words the willing bondslave to sin, you were bound by it that's why when we're saved it says verse 17 but God be thanked that you were the servants of sin a willing bond slave of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto you being then made free from sin you became the servants of righteousness .
No the idea is God has to give that new heart and we are transformed and made willing like psalm 1103 says thy people will be willing in the day of thy power .
so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness for when you were the servants of sin you were free from righteousness another words you didn't you didn't do any righteousness and you know what fruit have you've known things of which are now ashamed the end of those things is death.
but now Being made free from sin and become the servants to God you have your fruit unto holiness and have everlasting life so God set you free.
Jesus told those Jews and John 8 if the Son set you free you'll be free indeed .
We are free to serve we are never free to sin.

I agree with the above.
You use some wording I could maybe need some clarification on only because you stated that you're a calvinist.
You said that God gives us a new heart and we are transformed and made willing to serve Him.

If you mean that we turn to God, with the help of His grace, and He then gives us a new heart which allows us to understand the ways of God and we are thus made willing because we WANT to be willing to serve the God we love,
then I agree with you 100%.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello FHG,
Thanks for taking time to respond to my posts. Ezekiel 34 in part was against the fall Shepherds the false priests and teachers in Israel. But the way I read it 17 times God himself says he's going to seek and save that which is lost he identifies them as His sheep that they're scattered they've been miss taught and abused and he himself is going to seek and save his sheep Jesus is identified as the Good Shepherd the great Shepherd the Good Shepherd and John 10 and in Luke 19 he says the son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost. Of course it was spoken to the Old Testament nation of Israel because we learn in Romans 3 that they alone of all the nations had the Oracle so the written word of God you offered a lot of good verses on the history and all that but the key thing to remember is Jesus when he comes in the Incarnation he's going to the Cross to accomplish Redemption but he's also performing the second Exodus the true and new and the second exodus. What do I mean in John 6 he says Moses gave you Mana I'm the true manner that's come down from heaven he says in John 7 out of your belly will flow rivers of Living Water you know almost like as Moses had the water come out of the Rock and 1st Corinthians 5:7 Christ Our Passover is sacrificed for us at the Transfiguration He spoke of His Exodus. He is forming and is the new and true Israel the Covenant Son and Us in him so he's the head with a body .
It's a new Exodus.
It's the Fulfillment of the type of the first Exodus which was a historical event but now this is a superior and true and final Exodus. This in and of itself is a whole thread topic but I'm just trying to give you an idea of how you can see it one way you know the historical narrative and you could also see what's being explained and taught .
All of the Old Testament prophets obviously pointed to Jesus that's why in Luke 24:25-27
when Jesus does that Bible study with the apostles he he goes through the whole Old Testament and shows how it spoke of Him.
Thanks for your post.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost calling all to repentance, but not everyone will heed His calling.

Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[for_his_glory]

We can openly discuss these things it's not meant to be kept a secret or mysterious it's openly declared and openly believed and I don't see where there's any harm you can raise whatever questions and whatever else you want to do because I don't think you can be consistent with your answers and I'm not saying that in the Hostile way I'm just saying I've talked with many people posted with many people on these issues and eventually they either change their mind or they just go away and you know call names and everything else

Nothing is a secret or a mystery in the word of God if we are truly listening to what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us either directly or through those He speaks through to help teach us. I don't follow a man's religion no matter what they want to label themself as or who they follow, but only want to discuss the doctrines of Christ in what He has already taught. Everyone has a view, an opinion and a doctrine and I do take in consideration of what others present, but unless what they say lines up with scripture then it is only a man's doctrine.

I am opened to discuss various topics, but not by man's doctrines, but by the word of God only.

 

[Iconoclast]

"wondering,

Hello Wondering,
I am enjoying our interaction, and discussing these great verses.

[Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps the elect means the Jews or Israelites?
I'm sure you've heard of the SEED OF ABRAHAM.]

Yes indeed. Deut7:
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Amos
3 Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Sometimes I notice that when God choose one nation....no one objects and says this is not fair.
Why did God single out only one nation to elect some of those in that nation to become saved!


[The remnant are those Israelites that were not destroyed by another nation,
or instance the Babylonians or the Assyrians.
Isaiah 1:9 speaks to the King of Judah, probably Jotham, and tries to warn them of the coming attack of Assyria.
8The daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard,
Like a watchman’s hut in a cucumber field, like a besieged city.

9Unless the LORD of hosts
Had left us a few survivors,
We would be like Sodom,
We would be like Gomorrah.
The above is about the nation of Judah and Israel. (kingdoms).
It is not about personal salvation.]

While one nation was chosen, indeed not all Israelites in that nation were chosen to salvation.
We see that in Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:27-30
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”


[30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,


The above is also about nations.
It's about how God is keeping His promise to allow the Gentiles into the fold,
and not only the Jews.

Paul is comparing the Gentiles way to righteousness to the Jews way to righteousness.

He is saying there is only one way of righteousness