The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[electedbyHim]

Yes, we have been down this path and this has noting to do with the OP.

I was just replying to your post which has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[for_his_glory]

I was just replying to your post which has nothing to do with the OP.

which post would that be of mine?

 

[electedbyHim]

#478

You are trying to say woman are called to Pastor/teachers in your post by posting Scripture that has nothing to do with Pastor/teachers.

I understand you were answering Iconoclast.

Woman will believe they are called by the Holy Spirit to teach and preach His word. But that is definitely not the Holy Spirit that is pure pride. Woman are easily deceived as Eve was.

I will leave it be now.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

[Election usually has to do with the nation of Israel of with the choosing for a ministry.

Election has to do with 4 things in scripture

[Here's a question which no one has ever replied to satisfactorily (that it made any sense):
You say that God chooses for HIS GLORY.
How does it give glory to God if He only chooses some and the rest are left to spend eternity in hell?
How is that justice?]
We are all born guilty and dead In Adam...God could have given us all justice and cast us into the second death.

God in perfect wisdom has elected a multitude to be the objects of Hs love and mercy.
He was not obligated to save any. You think God is obligated to save everyone? We cannot do theology by speculation,ie..why did God not make a world of bumble bees, and butterfly's
You are suggesting you have a better way than God? Have you considered all God has ,and have superior thoughts than God in His perfect wisdom?
Perhaps you should read JOB, 38, & 39

[I agree with you about what predestination is.
Do you also believe OR believe that God predestines every little thing that happens here on earth?]

You should not conflate all the words together. Predestined, ordained, decreed, determinate council, foreknow, reprobation are all different. They are used in a particular way.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

 

[Iconoclast]

I,
[You haven't been totally honest with me !
You said that you got all your beliefs from the bible itself.
You stated this in your post no. 430.]

read the last two sentences of post 430

[Now, I did state to you that you were using calvinistic type words, and, lo and behold,
you ARE familiar with the WCF.]

1] the wcf is the 1644 confession which is Presbyterian
I quoted from the 1689 which is Baptist.
My post in 430 was true. I was completely ignorant of theology, I did not know ot, nt, I had no idea of church History I had no knowledge of the historic persons or theological themes. I did not know what Jn.6:44 meant...the numbers did not click at first,lol.
When cults approached me I thought they were Christians, Mormons, JW, The Way International,etc
A friend told me it was Satan trying to steal the seed of the word, and to go to a bookstore, and by Kingdom of the cults. I did then confessed my ignorance of scripture as sin, and asked God to teach me, so I could help others.
I read eph1, saw things were predestined by God. Kept seeing the word election...started to highlight every time I saw the word. Then I began to seek any help I could, books tapes, sermons, bible studies.

 

[Iconoclast]

[The WCF is a reformed manual that teaches what John Calvin believed but put in much softer tones]

John Calvin did not come up with the 5 points.so this is a diversion

[because calvinism is so difficult to swallow to normal human beings that believe God is LOVE, MERCY AND JUSTICE.]

The biblical truths known as Calvinism are derived from scripture itself, not Calvin,
Every biblical Calvinist I know are evangelistic and love scripture.

To suggest CALVINISTS seek to change God into a monster is a profane suggestion on your part, and exposes your ignorance of church history, missions, and evangelism.

[Why a monster? Because a being with as much power as God has, and also gets to CHOOSE who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, is NOT a being anyone would much care to worship.]

You want to invent your own god, that is the problem. You want to invent a god in your image, so of course you recoil AT THE BIBLICAL GOD WHO IS THRICE Holy

 

[Iconoclast]

God calls and equips who He wants that are ready to take His word out into the world.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God saves men and women yes. They are equal in salvation.
If you are suggesting women can be pastors or teachers, that of course is forbidden. 1 tim 2:11-15

 

[Iconoclast]

Didn't Moses talk God out of destroying the Israelites a couple of times?

No. Believing prayer and answers to prayer are ordained good works for believers, Eph 2:10

 

[Iconoclast]

[OK.
I think you're going to have to use your own words because I'd really like to understand.
The above explains what the reformed believe, but it doesn't tell me why.

Could you explain HOW God predestined unto life some (because certainly not all are saved)
but at the end it states that yet they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

IF God predestines me to life...
HOW can I also come freely?]

Just read what these pastors wrote in the confession:
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,
by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone,

and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.


( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
Read each statement and open your bible and see the verses explain how they saw that in the verses.

[What does GOD'S SPECIAL GRACE mean?
The bible speaks of God's grace, what is SPECIAL GRACE?
And what does grace mean to YOU?]

People experience "common grace". they live on God's earth, Marry, have children, enjoy food, it rains on the just and the unjust.
They can wander into a church and externally hear the words of a sermon outwardly and appear to be religious,
this is known as the outward or external general call, then go and split hell wide open.

Saving or effectual grace is inward by the Holy Spirit. All those things in the confession of faith take place as it says.
It is called EFFECTUAL GRACE, because it is not ultimately resisted as the general call always is.

The above also states that we must be quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit so that we can be enabled to answer this effectual call of God.

Do we have a choice when we answer to this effectual call?
Can we reply with a no?
What if I don't want to be saved?

the ungodly, non elect, always resist as in Acts7:51....but that is NOT THE EFFECTUAL CALL.
JESUS TAUGHT THE EFFECTUAL CALL..jn.10:27

Some infants go to hell?
Why?
Did they commit a sin?

Where did it say babies go to Hell? It spoke of elect infants, that leaves it up to God. Gen.18:25

[Revelation states that nothing unclean will enter into heaven.
Is a newborn baby unclean?
How?]

All sinned and died in Adam, at one point in time Rom3:23...the fall

[If the above is true,
how would you explain
Romans 1:19-20 which states that God has always been known by man through God's own revelation.
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,..

It states that man always could have known God and that for this reason, man will be without excuse when he appears before Christ for judgment.]

nature and conscience leave man with no excuse, but those two things do not give a saving knowledge to a person , because as fallen sinners they are truth suppressors

 

[GodsGrace]

God in perfect wisdom has elected a multitude to be the objects of Hs love and mercy.
He was not obligated to save any. You think God is obligated to save everyone? We cannot do theology by speculation,ie..why did God not make a world of bumble bees, and butterfly's
You are suggesting you have a better way than God? Have you considered all God has ,and have superior thoughts than God in His perfect wisdom?
Perhaps you should read JOB, 38, & 39

I don't know why it's practically impossible to have a conversation with a reformed believer.
Your post above is in response to this question by me:

HOW does it give God glory to send most of humanity to hell?
(since it is HIS choice as to who is saved and who is not).

Instead you scold me for some reason or other.
If this is your modus operandi, our conversation is going to end very quickly.
Don't worry about whether or not I've read Job...
Just answer my questions please.

You should not conflate all the words together. Predestined, ordained, decreed, determinate council, foreknow, reprobation are all different. They are used in a particular way.

Wow. Thanks for telling me that I.

Since we did not discuss meanings,
what makes you think I'm CONFLATING the words you posted above?
Is it possible for you to stick to the subject at hand???

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

Don't know why y ou posted the above.

Perhaps you could pick a verse and we could discuss it.

 

[GodsGrace]

read the last two sentences of post 430

Here is the entire post no. 430:

Calvin is not an easy read at all I get my teaching from scripture mostly from Jesus and the apostles and then the prophet spoke of the things that Jesus and the apostles unfolded. The doctrines of grace can be shown from the Gospels alone and the book of Acts
I believed in the biblical truths of election and predestination before I heard any formal terms and historic theology.
I did not understand fully, but the truth was quite obvious.


Allow me to say something here I,
There is no way anyone reading the NT on their very own would come to the conclusion that God predestinates persons to hell.
The words: Doctrine of Grace is reformed usage.
The truth you speak of could not be quite obvious because it is not the truth.
If you read the NT on your own, you would have encountered a God of love that would wish for the entire world to be saved. You'd know that you're a sinner in need of a Savior.
It is NOT NATURAL for anyone reading the NT to come to the conclusion that God chooses the saved and the lost.
There is indoctrination involved in the language you use.

1] the wcf is the 1644 confession which is Presbyterian
I quoted from the 1689 which is Baptist.
My post in 430 was true. I was completely ignorant of theology, I did not know ot, nt, I had no idea of church History I had no knowledge of the historic persons or theological themes. I did not know what Jn.6:44 meant...the numbers did not click at first,lol.
When cults approached me I thought they were Christians, Mormons, JW, The Way International,etc
A friend told me it was Satan trying to steal the seed of the word, and to go to a bookstore, and by Kingdom of the cults. I did then confessed my ignorance of scripture as sin, and asked God to teach me, so I could help others.
I read eph1, saw things were predestined by God. Kept seeing the word election...started to highlight every time I saw the word. Then I began to seek any help I could, books tapes, sermons, bible studies.

Do you know about history now?
Do you know that no theologian in the early church and up till 1,500AD believed in predestination?
So how do you think Calvin came up with such an idea?

In seeing the word ELECTION, you must surely have come across the concept that the nation of Israel was elected by God to be used as His nation of revelation.

You brought up John 6:44 and Ephesians 1 and saw that things are predestined.

Let's check it out:

John 6:44-45
44For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
45As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.


So the question is: Who does God Father draw?
Verse 45 states that ALL will be taught by God.
This refers back to Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
Other shepherds lead God's flock astary...
but HE will guide them in the future.
In fact, we know Jesus to be the Good Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34
This is speaking about the flock of God...Israel.
They were scattered and not brought back by the shepherds.
The shepherds were the leaders or rulers of Israel, for instance
Joshua was called a shepherd. It also refers to spiritual leaders.

So God is proclaiming that HE HIMSELF will seek for His flock,
the people of Israel and teach them HIMSELF since the other shepherds were lacking
in teaching the word of God.

God Father draws all to Himself.
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and pleases God our Savior,
4who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

God draws everyone because He would like everyone to be saved.
Unfortunately, not everyone WANTS to be saved.

Then read a little further on and see what Jesus says:


John 6:45-51
. 45As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
46(Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)
47“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.
48Yes, I am the bread of life!
49Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died.
50Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh.”


Read the above verses carefully.
Jesus is stating that ANYONE who eats HIS BREAD will have eternal life.
EVERYONE who listens to the Father and LEARNS FROM HIM,
will GO TO JESUS.

You cannot stop at one verse.
This is not correct exegesis.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Calvin did not come up with the 5 points.so this is a diversion

Did I say he did?

The biblical truths known as Calvinism are derived from scripture itself, not Calvin,
Every biblical Calvinist I know are evangelistic and love scripture.

Calvin derived his beliefs from a 5th century Catholic named Augustine.
He brought up the idea of predestination....
which was NOT accepted by the church at the time.

Calvinism is NOT biblical...it is a heretical faith and changes the very nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just read what these pastors wrote in the confession:
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,
by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone,

and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.


( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

To be honest I,
I don't really care what some pastors wrote in the 17th century, 1,600 years after Jesus death and ascension,
I like to go by what the bible states.

Where is it written in the NT that there is effectual calling?
I've never read that word and can't even find the concept there.

Read each statement and open your bible and see the verses explain how they saw that in the verses.

People experience "common grace". they live on God's earth, Marry, have children, enjoy food, it rains on the just and the unjust.
They can wander into a church and externally hear the words of a sermon outwardly and appear to be religious,
this is known as the outward or external general call, then go and split hell wide open.

Saving or effectual grace is inward by the Holy Spirit.

Where does the NT state that the Holy Spirit gives us grace??
The Holy Spirit has His work to do, but giving grace is not one of them.
This is something that God Father does.
Throughout the OT and NT we read about God Father's love and mercy. (which is grace).
I don't know of any scripture that states that the Holy Spirit does this.

See John 16:7 for the works of the Holy Spirit:
7But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocatea won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.
8And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

All those things in the confession of faith take place as it says.
It is called EFFECTUAL GRACE, because it is not ultimately resisted as the general call always is.

the ungodly, non elect, always resist as in Acts7:51....but that is NOT THE EFFECTUAL CALL.
JESUS TAUGHT THE EFFECTUAL CALL..jn.10:27



Where did it say babies go to Hell? It spoke of elect infants, that leaves it up to God. Gen.18:25

YOU said that elect babies go to heaven.
Where would you think the other babies go?

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is the entire post no. 430:

Calvin is not an easy read at all I get my teaching from scripture mostly from Jesus and the apostles and then the prophet spoke of the things that Jesus and the apostles unfolded. The doctrines of grace can be shown from the Gospels alone and the book of Acts
I believed in the biblical truths of election and predestination before I heard any formal terms and historic theology.
I did not understand fully, but the truth was quite obvious.


Allow me to say something here I,
There is no way anyone reading the NT on their very own would come to the conclusion that God predestinates persons to hell.
The words: Doctrine of Grace is reformed usage.
The truth you speak of could not be quite obvious because it is not the truth.
If you read the NT on your own, you would have encountered a God of love that would wish for the entire world to be saved. You'd know that you're a sinner in need of a Savior.
It is NOT NATURAL for anyone reading the NT to come to the conclusion that God chooses the saved and the lost.
There is indoctrination involved in the language you use.

Do you know about history now?
Do you know that no theologian in the early church and up till 1,500AD believed in predestination?
So how do you think Calvin came up with such an idea?

In seeing the word ELECTION, you must surely have come across the concept that the nation of Israel was elected by God to be used as His nation of revelation.

You brought up John 6:44 and Ephesians 1 and saw that things are predestined.

Let's check it out:

John 6:44-45
44For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
45As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.


So the question is: Who does God Father draw?
Verse 45 states that ALL will be taught by God.
This refers back to Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
Other shepherds lead God's flock astary...
but HE will guide them in the future.
In fact, we know Jesus to be the Good Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34
This is speaking about the flock of God...Israel.
They were scattered and not brought back by the shepherds.
The shepherds were the leaders or rulers of Israel, for instance
Joshua was called a shepherd. It also refers to spiritual leaders.

So God is proclaiming that HE HIMSELF will seek for His flock,
the people of Israel and teach them HIMSELF since the other shepherds were lacking
in teaching the word of God.

God Father draws all to Himself.
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and pleases God our Savior,
4who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

God draws everyone because He would like everyone to be saved.
Unfortunately, not everyone WANTS to be saved.

Then read a little further on and see what Jesus says:


John 6:45-51
. 45As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
46(Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)
47“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.
48Yes, I am the bread of life!
49Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died.
50Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh.”


Read the above verses carefully.
Jesus is stating that ANYONE who eats HIS BREAD will have eternal life.
EVERYONE who listens to the Father and LEARNS FROM HIM,
will GO TO JESUS.

You cannot stop at one verse.
This is not correct exegesis.

Start at vs.37-44
All that The Father gives to me shall come to me and Him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out for I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me and this is the Father's will that if all he had given me I should lose nothing but raise them up again at the last day.
The only people who are going to be saved are all that the Father gave to the Son there's gonna be no more and no less than all the Father gave to the Son.
The Apostles and prophets of the early church all believed in election and predestination it's obvious when you read the fusions one when you read the introduction to the letters press that's loneliness 213 and 14 Titus 1 you see the word elect election all through the letters so for you to suggest no one believed it for 1500 years it's complete nonsense.
Peter wrote to the beginning church the early church make your calling an election sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

Start at vs.37-44
All that The Father gives to me shall come to me and Him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out for I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me and this is the Father's will that if all he had given me I should lose nothing but raise them up again at the last day.
The only people who are going to be saved are all that the Father gave to the Son there's gonna be no more and no less than all the Father gave to the Son.

It states, as I've posted, that THOSE THAT LEARN from the Father, that LISTEN to Him, will be given to the Son.
You have to read everything, not just one verse.
EVERYONE that eats the flesh of Jesus will be saved.

John 6:43-56
43But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said.
44For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
45As it is written in the Scriptures,i ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
46(Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)

47“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.
48Yes, I am the bread of life!
49Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died.
50Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh.”

52Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” they asked.

53So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.
54But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

The Apostles and prophets of the early church all believed in election and predestination it's obvious when you read the fusions one when you read the introduction to the letters press that's loneliness 213 and 14 Titus 1 you see the word elect election all through the letters so for you to suggest no one believed it for 1500 years it's complete nonsense.
Peter wrote to the beginning church the early church make your calling an election sure.

Please don't tell me church history is complete nonsense.
This just shows me that you have not studied church history.

Could you please post some Early Church Fathers (theologians) in the years after Jesus died that believed in predestination and personal election?
Be careful not to post any gnostics because they were the ONLY ones that believed in this heretical teaching.

I'll be happy to post some if you care to read what the church believed after Jesus died.

I'd also be curious to know where you're getting your information from because it's not correct.


Thus, we may notice a trend in each of the writings from the century after the New Testament was written: all of these Christian thinkers viewed the believer’s calling and election as something that was contingent on their choices. One’s willingness to live a life of obedience to God in Christ and to persevere in the faith was the deciding factor, and even the most sincere believer could be at risk of failing to attain final salvation by committing apostasy.

While none of the Apostolic Fathers writes in any kind of detailed, systematic fashion about how election works or whether God’s initial justification of a Christian is unconditional, they unanimously assert the contingency of final salvation. And their understanding of God’s offer of repentance is that it is genuinely universal, extended to all people and effective for those who believe (which is foreknown by God).

When we turn in a future post to look at the early Christian Apologists from the second century, such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, we will see an even more explicit emphasis on this universal offer of salvation and the freedom of humanity to accept or reject it. Indeed, in the face of the prevailing Greek notions of Fate, the Christian Apologists’ constant refrain will be that every person is responsible for his or her own choices, “for there is no coercion with God.”
source: https://derekdemars.com/2021/08/31/...on-predestination-part-two-apostolic-fathers/

 

[Iconoclast]

It states, as I've posted, that THOSE THAT LEARN from the Father, that LISTEN to Him, will be given to the Son.
You have to read everything, not just one verse.
EVERYONE that eats the flesh of Jesus will be saved.

John 6:43-56
43But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said.
44For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
45As it is written in the Scriptures,i ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
46(Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.)

47“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.
48Yes, I am the bread of life!
49Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died.
50Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh.”

52Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” they asked.

53So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.
54But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.



Please don't tell me church history is complete nonsense.
This just shows me that you have not studied church history.

Could you please post some Early Church Fathers (theologians) in the years after Jesus died that believed in predestination and personal election?
Be careful not to post any gnostics because they were the ONLY ones that believed in this heretical teaching.

I'll be happy to post some if you care to read what the church believed after Jesus died.

I'd also be curious to know where you're getting your information from because it's not correct.


Thus, we may notice a trend in each of the writings from the century after the New Testament was written: all of these Christian thinkers viewed the believer’s calling and election as something that was contingent on their choices. One’s willingness to live a life of obedience to God in Christ and to persevere in the faith was the deciding factor, and even the most sincere believer could be at risk of failing to attain final salvation by committing apostasy.

While none of the Apostolic Fathers writes in any kind of detailed, systematic fashion about how election works or whether God’s initial justification of a Christian is unconditional, they unanimously assert the contingency of final salvation. And their understanding of God’s offer of repentance is that it is genuinely universal, extended to all people and effective for those who believe (which is foreknown by God).

When we turn in a future post to look at the early Christian Apologists from the second century, such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, we will see an even more explicit emphasis on this universal offer of salvation and the freedom of humanity to accept or reject it. Indeed, in the face of the prevailing Greek notions of Fate, the Christian Apologists’ constant refrain will be that every person is responsible for his or her own choices, “for there is no coercion with God.”
source: https://derekdemars.com/2021/08/31/...on-predestination-part-two-apostolic-fathers/

To answer you might put me in violation of mt7:6.
If i want to debate Leighton Flowers I will do so directly.
I have already done that over a 4 year perion.
Not everyone is given truth.
An example of a effectual grace is seen very clearly in 1st thess.2:13-14


but unless you're gonna read the scripture seriously and they ask and see a questions there's no need for me to even bother answering you the early church fathers
there's like a wax nose you can make them say whatever you want them to say. They left is with a gospel of works and an apostate RC. Church.
So according to you all the reformers , puritans, are all Spurgeon ,all of classic theologians Berkoff, Murray, Owen they're all heretics and wrong ,and you and your little posse of anti Cal persons have it right.
yeah we've heard it before so you continue on with your little posse and I'll stick with the historic faith once delivered to the saints, thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

To answer you might put me in violation of mt7:6.
If i want to debate Leighton Flowers I will do so directly.
I have already done that over a 4 year perion.
Not everyone is given truth.
An example of a effectual grace is seen very clearly in 1st thess.2:13-14

This is how it is Iconoclast.
No one of the reformed faith is willing to discuss in a civilized manner.
You have no pearls to throw....
Your theology is very far from the nature of God.
The God of love, mercy and justice.

I don't know what you think 1 Thes 2:13-14 has to do with this effectual grace you speak of,
but I guess we won't be discussing it.

I also STILL don't have the answer to my original question to you and others:
HOW does God show His glory to men by CHOOSING to send most of humanity to hell?
Guess I won't be getting that answer anytime soon either.

This is because you lack the love necessary to witness to God.
You just parrot what has been taught to you and don't even use your own words.
This is sad.

but unless you're gonna read the scripture seriously and they ask and see a questions there's no need for me to even bother answering you the early church fathers
there's like a wax nose you can make them say whatever you want them to say. They left is with a gospel of works and an apostate RC. Church.
So according to you all the reformers , puritans, are all Spurgeon ,all of classic theologians Berkoff, Murray, Owen they're all heretics and wrong ,and you and your little posse of anti Cal persons have it right.
yeah we've heard it before so you continue on with your little posse and I'll stick with the historic faith once delivered to the saints, thanks

I've been reading scripture very seriously for the past 40 years.
Not necessary that I wait for you to do so.

The Early Fathers were taught by the Apostles and had very definite ideas.
Unfortunately, they don't match with yours.
So, yes, everyone that does not agree with them and mainline Christianity are heretical in nature,
although they might be very intelligent persons, as Calvin was and also Spurgeon and also Sproul.
THEY don't decide what Christianity believes...
Jesus did.
The Apostles
and those they directly taught.

You've heard it before I, because what you're hearing on these forums is the truth.
You are not following the truth that Jesus left us with.

If the God you think you know...
Does not resemble Jesus...
You are following the wrong God.

Blessings

 

[electedbyHim]

Start at vs.37-44
All that The Father gives to me shall come to me and Him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out for I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me and this is the Father's will that if all he had given me I should lose nothing but raise them up again at the last day.
The only people who are going to be saved are all that the Father gave to the Son there's gonna be no more and no less than all the Father gave to the Son.
The Apostles and prophets of the early church all believed in election and predestination it's obvious when you read the fusions one when you read the introduction to the letters press that's loneliness 213 and 14 Titus 1 you see the word elect election all through the letters so for you to suggest no one believed it for 1500 years it's complete nonsense.
Peter wrote to the beginning church the early church make your calling an election sure.

Please understand that these people do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. They truly think they do, but they really do not. They do not see that Jesus and the Apostles taught these doctrines first. Look at all of Paul's writings,
all about Predestination, election and so on.

You will see countless threads on the forum in the Calvinism section where they will TRY to refute what the Bible teaches on Election, Predestination and the like. The do not understand Gods wrath, justice and love. That He does what He please without any input from sinful man.

They do not understand the Sovereignty of God at all. They will tell you the Reformed faith is heresy. They believe they play some part in salvation, you know, they chose God. We understand that is not Biblical in any way.
Jesus compared the new birth to physical birth.

John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.

No human had a choice in their physical birth and no human has a choice in the Spiritual birth. That is just absurd.

Some of the people here say they do not go by man made doctrine and get their theology from the Holy Spirit and the Bible only. No Pastors or theologians allowed. That is extremely dangerous territory especially if one cannot discern between truth and feelings. In the end they are trusting in a man made theology, one they have made of their own thought process.

But hey, I am wrong and they are right.

Ha, this is all to sad.

I am done with my rant.

Jeff

 

[Iconoclast]

Please understand that these people do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. They truly think they do, but they really do not. They do not see that Jesus and the Apostles taught these doctrines first. Look at all of Paul's writings,
all about Predestination, election and so on.

You will see countless threads on the forum in the Calvinism section where they will TRY to refute what the Bible teaches on Election, Predestination and the like. The do not understand Gods wrath, justice and love. That He does what He please without any input from sinful man.

They do not understand the Sovereignty of God at all. They will tell you the Reformed faith is heresy. They believe they play some part in salvation, you know, they chose God. We understand that is not Biblical in any way.
Jesus compared the new birth to physical birth.

John 3:6 “That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.

No human had a choice in their physical birth and no human has a choice in the Spiritual birth. That is just absurd.

Some of the people here say they do not go by man made doctrine and get their theology from the Holy Spirit and the Bible only. No Pastors or theologians allowed. That is extremely dangerous territory especially if one cannot discern between truth and feelings. In the end they are trusting in a man made theology, one they have made of their own thought process.

But hey, I am wrong and they are right.

Ha, this is all to sad.

I am done with my rant.

Jeff

Sadly Every single thing you said is correct.
1 cor2:14 is the verse of the day.

They trample on truth, and elevate false ideas such as the myth of free will.
That means they offer people a defective gospel.
Thankfully God is sovereign and will not be hindered but such vain ideas.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jeff, Do you also find it odd how they disregard those gifted men God has given to the church saying I just go by what the bible says,lol.
As if the Puritans did not study the bible at all.
This allows them to make their own rules and call error truth, and truth error