The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Hopeful]

Reformed understanding of salvation is not a FORCING of an individual to convert. It is convincing (them) that God is who He says He is per the Bible.

What if they won't be "convinced"?
Their fate is with all who are unbelieving.

Your concept IMO is a God that loves (favors) you but not enough to convince you that He is who He says He is. My concept of God is one who loves (favors) me so much that He convinces me (I believe willing, not because there is a gun to my head) that He is who He says he is.

Doesn't that imply that God doesn't love enough those who won't be convinced?

(You can google 'reformed compatibilism' to fix up your misconception or accept my cut&paste definition: "reformed compatibilism is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice." https://www.monergism.com/topics/free-will/compatibilism

My Shepherd efficaciously shows me the way to salvation and I follow willingly, your shepherd says, come and find me and if you do you will be saved.

Who was Hitler's "Shepherd"?
Wasn't God "determined" enough?

If you are a consistent Arminian you may leave the fold.

I don't label myself with man's titles.

God has made Himself available to all who seek after Him.
His existence is unignorable to anyone who has seen a sunrise.
They are the flock of Christ.
Those who choose not to follow Him are the sheep of a different shepherd.

 

[JLB]

JLB, quite frankly, you seem posed to use your position of authority to silence what has been considered orthodox Christianity since the Reformation.

So you also believe a person is born again apart from believing the Gospel? That is what he is promoting.

You think that is orthodox Christianity?



JLB

 

[JLB]

What part of this is "another Gospel"?

The part that says we are born again by the Spirit, “some time in our life”, and then later on we believe the Gospel.


IOW, being born again is not the result of believing the Gospel, but some other action taken by God.

Is this what you believe?


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Do you agree or disagree that being born again, saved, regenerated are synonymous terms?

Only in the sense that they are all facets of the same jewel.

 

[JLB]

Only in the sense that they are all facets of the same jewel.

Is being born again something different than being saved through faith?


JLB

 

[Hospes]

Do you agree or disagree that being born again, saved, regenerated are synonymous terms?

Words only matter if they have definitions. I do not mind using anyone's definitions as long as they give them to me. From what I can tell, you assume everyone is working off of your definitions. Have you asked for any clarity on what others mean when they use a term?

If you want to define born again, saved, and regenerated as all the same thing, then I am good with that. We just need the humility to accept that definitions you and I use do not set the standard for the rest of mankind.

 

[Hopeful]

Is being born again something different than being saved through faith?


JLB

Yes.
Putting one foot forward doesn't mean you are walking.
Our "saving" won't be assured till after the final judgement.
If my faith is unbreakable till death, then I will claim "I am saved".

I can believe everything written concerning salvation, but if I don't act on it I will be lost.

 

[for_his_glory]

This thread is being closed because of the division from teaching another gospel other than the doctrines of Christ. To many misunderstandings, misinterpretations of others post and questions not being answered with scripture. Unless the other two Administrators decide to reopen the thread, it will remain closed as it's becoming a battlefield in here.

 

[JLB]

Words only matter if they have definitions. I do not mind using anyone's definitions as long as they give them to me. From what I can tell, you assume everyone is working off of your definitions. Have you asked for any clarity on what others mean when they use a term?

If you want to define born again, saved, and regenerated as all the same thing, then I am good with that. We just need the humility to accept that definitions you and I use do not set the standard for the rest of mankind.

brightfame52 has openly stated that we are first born again by the will of the Spirit, apart from believing the Gospel, then later on we believe the Gospel because we are already born again.


Is that what you believe?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Our "saving" won't be assured till after the final judgement.

Amen sir!

 

[brightfame52]

Even the ability to come to Christ in faith is a gift based upon the cross of Calvary. At the cross, Christ purchased for His people the Grace to believe in His name Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ death results in the salvation of those He died for, so much so, He is called the Captain of their Salvation Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Mine you, this is in the context of having tasted death for every man in Vs 9. Through and by His death, or His suffering unto death, He became the Captain of their Salvation, through tasting[experiencing] death. Now the word captain is the greek word archēgos and means:

the author, that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

So by His sufferings, tasting death, He became the originator, the active cause, Captain of their Salvation. It was by this means the Father ordained many sons to Glory.

BTW the word captain is the same word author in Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ is the author/source of our Faith. This would include the OT Saints that went before in Heb 11 as well. Christ their Mediator was the source of their faith. 4

 

[brightfame52]

Christs death produces saving results in that by it the Children of God/Sheep/Church is gathered unto God Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that [in order that] also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Clearly the purpose of His dying for that nation [jews] but not them only[gentiles] was for the gathering of them together to form them into One People unto God. This is also expressed earlier in John here Jn 10:16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The word bring here serves the same purpose as the word gather in Jn 11:52.

The word gather means συνάγω:

to lead together, bring together, come together (pass.), entertain
Usage: I gather together, collect, assemble, receive with hospitality, entertain.

to join together, join in one (those previously separated):

This speaks to the jews and gentiles being once separated, now being brought together by the death of Christ Eph 2:11-19

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

This gathering was prophesied in the OT here Gen 49:9-10

9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Christ is Shiloh. This is probably what Caiaphas the high priest was moved to utter about Jn 11:49ff

The word for gathering in Gen 49:10 is the word yᵊqāhâ:

obedience, cleansing, purging,; obedience:—gathering, to obey.

The Death of Christ was designed to bring together the people of God from among all nations to the obedience of the Faith, under One Head.

 

[brightfame52]

It is a heresy and false teaching if Christ's death alone does not guarantee a saving result for them He died for ! This applies to those who also teach that Christ died in some non redemptive way for the non elect ! That is, God had subordinate purposes to redemption, which Christs death did not ensure a saving, converting result ! 5

 

[brightfame52]

The positive effect of Christ dying, giving of Himself, or offering of Himself for those He died for, is actual absolute redemption from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The word that, the conjunction hina which means:

in order that, so that, in order that (denoting the purpose or the result

So His giving of Himself produces redemptive results, which God purposed, one such result was redeem them from all iniquity, that's Salvation right there !

This was promised in the OT Ps 130:8

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. The Israel here is not physical national israel, its Spiritual Israel the Church as seen in Titus 2:14

In other words the promise of Ps 130:8 found its fulfillment in Christ and the Church, and so its a sure result of Christ redeeming death !

 

[brightfame52]

The harvest of Christ's Death. Peace, the outcome of the cross. We believe that the Savior's finished work has rendered our[Gods Elect] damnation impossible, and our salvation certain,

 

[The Gallant Saint]

The harvest of Christ's Death. Peace, the outcome of the cross. We believe that the Savior's finished work has rendered our[Gods Elect] damnation impossible, and our salvation certain,

Does that come with any conditions?

 

[Hopeful]

The harvest of Christ's Death. Peace, the outcome of the cross. We believe that the Savior's finished work has rendered our[Gods Elect] damnation impossible, and our salvation certain,

As those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin, (1 John 3:9), you are correct.

 

[The Gallant Saint]

As those reborn of God's seed cannot commit sin, (1 John 3:9), you are correct.

"Anyone having been born of God, does not practice sin, because the seed of Him abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning (ἁμαρτάνειν) , because he has been born of God."

This word ἁμαρτάνειν with "νειν" suffix, is like a continuous tense, this is why the word "continue" was inserted. It is to convey someone continually sinning with no repentance. So we are not able to continually sin, having been born of God. But sadly, we do sin from time to time, and it is something we need to work on.

 

[Hopeful]

"Anyone having been born of God, does not practice sin, because the seed of Him abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning (ἁμαρτάνειν) , because he has been born of God."

This word ἁμαρτάνειν with "νειν" suffix, is like a continuous tense, this is why the word "continue" was inserted. It is to convey someone continually sinning with no repentance. So we are not able to continually sin, having been born of God. But sadly, we do sin from time to time, and it is something we need to work on.

Your interpretation of the scripture is just another accommodation for sin, and not of God.
Can an apple tree ever bear watermelons?
If not, why can God's seed ever bear the fruit of the devil?
"Seed" can only bring forth after itself.