The Seven Seals

[whirlwind]

Now the PRINCE will again come against Jerusalem. But this time, its spiritual Jerusalem. The church. This time it will not be little Rome, but the revived Roman Empire (UN) that will be the driving force behind the persecution of the saint of God.

:yes Exactly!

 

[whirlwind]

I totally agree with and understand spiritual Israel. But we still have a remnant coming into the Kingdom of physical Israel too. I am happy to stand alone on this, LOL , because this is one understanding that is neither here, nor there. As long as people do see the first fruits 144000 of Rev 14 as the man child ministry, I am happy to not bring in the 144000 of Rev 7.

On the point of there being two groups of 144,000....you don't stand alone. On your second point, I also see the second group of 144,000 as the ministry of the man child...but I don't see them as being THE man child.

The difference to me is found in.........

• * Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings AND priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
  
  * Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings AND priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The "ministry of" are the priests, the 144,000 but the man child, of that group and yet separate, are the kings. They were chosen to follow the Savior in every way...and they will.

 

[Cornelius]

So are you saying that there are two groups that can be first fruits? The 144000 and the manchild ministry?

 

[whirlwind]

So are you saying that there are two groups that can be first fruits? The 144000 and the manchild ministry?

They are not two separate groups per se but are a group within a group. The firstfruits are the two witnesses...all of the 144,000. But the man child are the kings while the others are the princes. The man child are the seventy within the 144,000.

 

[Cornelius]

They are not two separate groups per se but are a group within a group. The firstfruits are the two witnesses...all of the 144,000. But the man child are the kings while the others are the princes. The man child are the seventy within the 144,000.

Here we have the type of the man-child (Jesus) sending out the two witnesses:

Mar 6:7 And he calleth unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits;


After the two witnesses finish their testimony, they are killed.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that cometh up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

but you also have the group that is not killed, because they remain alive unto the coming of the Lord. They are not killed:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

The man-child stays alive, because they have already "died to self" They are the first fruits to manifest Christ. (Christ is immortal and if we think that manifesting Christ 100% does not include immortality, we must think again. These are they that are changed in the "twinkling of an eye" from mortal into immortal )

So: The group that gets killed is not part of the man-child. Who are they?

 

[Cornelius]

The Two witnesses in the Gospels are disciples that are sent out "two by two" (in type) So this time , they will again be disciples (we are all suppose to be disciples) So the understanding is easy if we look at Jesus and the disciples. in type: Jesus (man-child ministry) sends out the two witnesses (all the disciples, all of the church, Jewish remnant and Gentile church: ONE church now)

 

[whirlwind]

They are not two separate groups per se but are a group within a group. The firstfruits are the two witnesses...all of the 144,000. But the man child are the kings while the others are the princes. The man child are the seventy within the 144,000.

Here we have the type of the man-child (Jesus) sending out the two witnesses:

Mar 6:7 And he calleth unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits;


After the two witnesses finish their testimony, they are killed.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that cometh up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

but you also have the group that is not killed, because they remain alive unto the coming of the Lord. They are not killed:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

The man-child stays alive, because they have already "died to self" They are the first fruits to manifest Christ. (Christ is immortal and if we think that manifesting Christ 100% does not include immortality, we must think again. These are they that are changed in the "twinkling of an eye" from mortal into immortal )

So: The group that gets killed is not part of the man-child. Who are they?

Where it is written that the two witnesses finish their testimony and are killed still holds true if it is as I believe it is....for the man child are OF the two witnesses. They are also the two witnesses. From [Revelation 2:9-11 and 3:7-11] we are shown the separation in the destiny of the witnesses. One group (which I see as the seven thousand) will suffer in tribulation ten days and must be "faithful unto death." The other group (still the witnesses/first fruits) must "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." They are those that are "alive and left." All are the two witnesses but the man child segment of the two witnesses are slain.

 

[Cornelius]

So the man child dies twice ?

 

[whirlwind]

The Two witnesses in the Gospels are disciples that are sent out "two by two" (in type) So this time , they will again be disciples (we are all suppose to be disciples) So the understanding is easy if we look at Jesus and the disciples. in type: Jesus (man-child ministry) sends out the two witnesses (all the disciples, all of the church, Jewish remnant and Gentile church: ONE church now)

I agree that the two witnesses are His disciples and that it is Jesus that sends us out. But, the difference I see in both segements is that it is the man child that will follow Jesus' example as it is they that will be slain. From Scripture it appears that the number of the man child is seven thousand. We are told....

• * Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies; and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

After the "two witnesses" (seven thousand men children) are killed and then "stood upon their feet" we read....

• * 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The number of the "men slain" after the witnesses are killed (because they killed the witnesses) are seven thousand. As it is written, "if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed," we can assume that the number killed was the same number slain....seven thousand of both camps.

 

[whirlwind]

So the man child dies twice ?

No....they have already died to self but they are still in flesh bodies.

• * 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

• * Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They have died to self but their flesh must also perish. That is part of the first death.

• * Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
  
  10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Cornelius]

So the man child dies twice ?

No....they have already died to self but they are still in flesh bodies.

• * 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

• * Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They have died to self but their flesh must also perish. That is part of the first death.

• * Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
  
  10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

No, that would contradict Scripture , as the reason why they are indeed the First Fruits is that they have died to self.(God sees this death as death of the flesh too. So in God's eyes they can enter the Kingdom and they have indeed entered here: Rev 12:5 ..... her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. (Into the Kingdom they go !)



The Two Witnesses on the other hand have not . They must still die, thus they are killed after they have given their testimony

The man-child ministry is the leadership ministry, so they get to remain alive until the coming of the Lord

 

[Cornelius]

By the way, the second death is the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

 

[whirlwind]

So the man child dies twice ?

No....they have already died to self but they are still in flesh bodies.

• * 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

• * Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They have died to self but their flesh must also perish. That is part of the first death.

• * Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
  
  10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

No, that would contradict Scripture , as the reason why they are indeed the First Fruits is that they have died to self.(God sees this death as death of the flesh too. So in God's eyes they can enter the Kingdom and they have indeed entered here: Rev 12:5 ..... her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. (Into the Kingdom they go !)

But....the others are also the firstfruits and you believe they are those that will be slain. Would the dying to self not also apply to them? Although "her child was caught up unto God" is that their physical bodies? Remember, flesh can't enter. Is the being "caught up" when they die to self, their spirit, or does it mean they are caught up after their physical deaths?

The Two Witnesses on the other hand have not . They must still die, thus they are killed after they have given their testimony

They are termed "firstfruits" as the man child is. All 144,000 are firstfruits but not all are the man child.

The man-child ministry is the leadership ministry, so they get to remain alive until the coming of the Lord

That may be but, that isn't written. To me, it is the opposite in that they, as leaders, follow Jesus and it is they that are slain. It is they that rise after three and one half days and it is they that ascend before those still living and it is they that are with Him wearing the many crowns....

• * Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I just had a thought.... I am seeing another division in the witnesses. Those that come with Christ are "His eyes" that are "as a flame of fire." They are the reason for the "many crowns." They are the kings of [Revelation 1:6] Those still on earth, those that shall be changed in an instant, are "His feet!" They are the princes. All are the witnesses, all are firstfruits. The "feet" stand upon the mount of Olives....which is symbolic of the woman that fled into the wilderness. His mountain/nation of believers.

• * Zechariah 14:3-4 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east.....

By the way, the second death is the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

:yes And...they won't be hurt of that death for their spirit will never die. They have already died to self....but, their flesh must perish. Our example....

• * Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit:" and having said thus, He gave up the ghost.
  
  * Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

 

[Cornelius]

But....the others are also the firstfruits and you believe they are those that will be slain. Would the dying to self not also apply to them? Although "her child was caught up unto God" is that their physical bodies? Remember, flesh can't enter. Is the being "caught up" when they die to self, their spirit, or does it mean they are caught up after their physical deaths?

First-fruits are just that: The first to manifest the fruit of Christ. That is what it takes to be part of the man child, not the witnesses.

Being caught up is spiritually entering the Kingdom and place of authority (throne). This is the moment of manifestation. They (the First fruits) are the overcomers who gets to sit in the throne with Jesus.

I remember that you believe the two witnesses are the 144000 and so you cloud your understanding a bit, regarding the "first fruits" issue. Once you remove what you believe (even for a moment) you will see that the man child is the 144000 and they are the leadership of the WHOLE rest of Christianity , who are now the witnesses. (small group (man child) leading the large group (witnesses) )

Just picture it in your mind: The gospel must be preached to the whole world. If you were God, would you send a 144000 to do the job , or would you send ALL the disciples after you have anointed them with power ? Obviously even 144000 good witnesses will not make a dent in the present world, but if ALL the church (true church) is anointed, then it will happen. The man-child is nourishing (teaching) the woman in the desert . They are preparing her , so that she can go into the world as the witnesses. We are also waiting for the Jewish remnant to come in, so that we all can do this job in the end of time.

 

[Cornelius]

That may be but, that isn't written. To me, it is the opposite in that they, as leaders, follow Jesus and it is they that are slain.

You forget, they have already done this 100% so they cannot do it again.

They were fully obedient to:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Also it is written, although not in so many words. Its written in the spiritual understanding about death to self. Also their authority as "Christ manifest". We can barely understand what it will be like although the Bible does tell us:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.


It also tells us that we can be like Him ..........in this world.

1Jn 4:17 ............ as he is, even so are we in this world.

 

[Cornelius]

You have to be an overcomer to be part of this verse.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

 

[whirlwind]

But....the others are also the firstfruits and you believe they are those that will be slain. Would the dying to self not also apply to them? Although "her child was caught up unto God" is that their physical bodies? Remember, flesh can't enter. Is the being "caught up" when they die to self, their spirit, or does it mean they are caught up after their physical deaths?

First-fruits are just that: The first to manifest the fruit of Christ. That is what it takes to be part of the man child, not the witnesses.

Being caught up is spiritually entering the Kingdom and place of authority (throne). This is the moment of manifestation. They (the First fruits) are the overcomers who gets to sit in the throne with Jesus.

I remember that you believe the two witnesses are the 144000 and so you cloud your understanding a bit, regarding the "first fruits" issue. Once you remove what you believe (even for a moment) you will see that the man child is the 144000 and they are the leadership of the WHOLE rest of Christianity , who are now the witnesses. (small group (man child) leading the large group (witnesses) )

That doesn't follow the types we are given. Those that are gathered, to the leadership position, are seventy and they are those that are slain.

• * Numbers 11:16-17 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the People, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the People with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
  
  * 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the People the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the People, and set them round about the tabernacle
  
  
  * Judges 9:4-5 And they gave him threescore and ten pieces of silver out of the house of Baal-berith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him. And he went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.

 

[whirlwind]

That may be but, that isn't written. To me, it is the opposite in that they, as leaders, follow Jesus and it is they that are slain.

You forget, they have already done this 100% so they cannot do it again.

They were fully obedient to:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Could "taking up his cross" literally mean....taking up his cross upon which he will die? That is "being like Him" in every way.

They have spiritually died but not physically.

• 1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
  
  15:44 It is sown a natural body,; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Dying to self speaks of the spiritual but...there is still a natural body that must be reckoned with.

Also it is written, although not in so many words. Its written in the spiritual understanding about death to self. Also their authority as "Christ manifest". We can barely understand what it will be like although the Bible does tell us:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.


It also tells us that we can be like Him ..........in this world.

1Jn 4:17 ............ as he is, even so are we in this world.

 

[Cornelius]

I am going to stop here now

At the moment you are moving away from any known revelation on the man child. You are seeing types and shadows where there are no types relating to this matter.
We have also moved away very far, from the Seven Seals . I apologize !!!

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
That is my point. Of course He knew the covenant would be broken. The covenant is NOT the temple written of in Ezekiel. Because the old covenant would be broken and a New Covenant made does that in any way negate the building of a temple? Knowing that we are now His temple, does that mean that in the millennium there will be a literal temple built or is it all spiritual? I don't know. But, I do know that....

* Revelation 10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

* Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

From those passages we see that the "kings and priests" will reign on earth (earth = people and/or our actual planet earth). We also see that the "beloved city "is here as well as the "camp of the saints." Is that the temple, or should I ask....are they the temple? There are many questions but nevertheless....there is still a temple on earth during the millennium and the temple isn't the covenant but is filled with those with which His covenant was made.

OK . I'm not sure how this is relevant to Ezekiel's vision of the Millennium becoming obsolete, and I'm not sure what your point is here.

Originally posted by Cornelius
You are seeing types and shadows where there are no types relating to this matter.
We have also moved away very far, from the Seven Seals. I apologize !!!

No need to apologize. It's my thread, and I don't mind the little side trips. But as for "moving far away" - you are both moving far away from the Scriptures. Though an interesting discussion; you're both interjecting your own ideas into God's Word that just aren't there. I think a thorough study on what actually changed when the New Covenant was implemented is in order before you decide to move on, because you're both missing it completely.