The Sin Nature

[Hopeful]

The Greek word in Rom. 6:6 "destroyed" is "katargeo."
This is what it means. Most theologians agree that #1, in the bold, is the correct interpretation of this verse.
Strong's #2673: katargeo (pronounced kat-arg-eh'-o)
from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
katargeō
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Part of Speech: verb

"Most theologians" is a big red flag to me.
Most of them still commit sin so have no reason to hide it or accept any good word that they don't have to commit sin anymore.
They are on a mission to incorporate sin into Christ.

Thank you for the definition.
Makes it clear nothing of the "old man" can survive...including its nature.
If some part of the old man continued to exist after its destruction, 2 Cor 5:17 would be a lie.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
It also makes sense of Jesus' words in Matt 9:17 and Mark 2:22 concerning new wine being put in new vessels.
If our old vessel (body) has new wine (Spirit) put in it, it will fail.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful

If this is correct and I know it is, the sin nature is not destroyed as in being completely removed, but is placed in the state of dormancy, inactive. But as Paul has shown us, it can become active!

See Jesus' parable about new wine not being put in old vessels. Matt 9:17, Mark 2:22.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 3:6-9 (ESV)
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.

You said that it is silly to believe that a Christian cannot or will not sin.

However, as it is written in 1 John 3:9 (kjv),

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Even as the verse is given as you rendered it, the one who is born of God cannot keep on sinning...which indicates that he will not continue in sin...indicating that he has ceased from sinning.

And "practices" as it is rendered in the version you have presented, accurately represents the fact that we do not sin in the practical sense: however, it is not referring to some kind of scenario where I can say, "I am not practicing it because I only did it this one time." If you did it one time, you will do it again; because whoever sins is a slave of sin (John 8:34). If I commit the same sin once every two weeks, I am still practicing it; it does not matter that each time I say to myself, "I am only doing it this one time"...it is a consistent habit that began with a singular action!

 

[gordon777]

Apostle Paul brought before the council, tells them earnestly how he had lived in all good conscience before God until that day.

Paul is then brought before Governor Felix, and confesses before them, that, that which they call heresy, He so worships the God of his fathers, believing all things written in the law and the prophets, having hope towards God, of a resurrection of the dead, just and unjust. This is how Apostle Paul confesses how he exercises himself, to always have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man. (More verses for never giving offence, and when some give offences to avoid those people. 1 Corinthians 10:32. 2 Corinthians 6:3. James 3:2. Philippians 1:10. Romans 16:17.)

The end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, which is also of a good conscience, sincere faith, which some swerve aside to vanity.

We are to hold the faith and a good conscience, not like some who have put away concerning faith and made shipwreck. ( they are delivered unto satan to learn to not blaspheme.)

We are to draw near to God, with a true heart in full assurance of faith, and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The Apostles had a good conscience in all things, willing to live honestly.

We are beseeched by the workers with Him, to not receive the grace of God in vain. God hears us and accepts us in the day of salvation and succours us, we are to behold as now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

The Apostles giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving themselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses.

Whatever we do it is to, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD.. ( committing sin is not giving glory to God)

Giving no offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God, even as Apostle Paul pleased ALL MEN IN ALL THINGS, not seeking his own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

What saves us is the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ( To assure our hearts before God and our heart to not condemn us. 1 John 3:18-21.)




Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

2 Corinthians 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:





No scripture can be taught against the practical examples of the Apostles, nor against the purpose of that good conscience /belief in the rising of Christ from the dead, and also of non causing of offence to anyone. ( in all things giving glory to God.)

Those who do commit sins, ( those of this world/and any man that is called a brother.) fornicators, covetous, railer, drunkards, are to be judged, and pout away from ourselves those wicked persons.





1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[Tenchi]

You said that it is silly to believe that a Christian cannot or will not sin.

However, as it is written in 1 John 3:9 (kjv),

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Even as the verse is given as you rendered it, the one who is born of God cannot keep on sinning...which indicates that he will not continue in sin...indicating that he has ceased from sinning.

1 John 3:9 does not stand alone, separate from the rest of God's word, nor above it. Rather, the verse is qualified and clarified by all that Scripture has to say about the believer and sin. And because this is so, it's impossible to understand John in the way you're trying to here, justbyfaith.

See: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11:17-34, Galatians 3:1-3, 4:9-12, 1 John 1:7-10, Romans 7:15-25, Revelation 2-3, etc.

As better translations of Scripture have been made, the sense of John's words in 1 John 3:9 has been more clearly rendered and come into fuller accord with the rest of God's word.

1 John 3:8-10 (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God...

John never indicated that the believer will be totally sin-free at some point, only that the genuine believer will not "make a practice of sinning"; that is, the believer will not persist in sin without pang of conscience, or conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3), without the discipline of the God occurring (Hebrews 12:5-11), without ever looking up from the pigpen and thinking, "I will go to my Father and say I have sinned against heaven and before you" (Luke 15:18). Though believers inevitably sin, they distinguish themselves as genuine believers by desiring God (loving Him) more than their sin and so act to overcome their sin by the means God has laid out in His word (repentance, confession, submission, faith). But every person who comes to God has layers of sin in their life, most well-hidden from the person's view, that not even a lifetime of walking with Him is necessarily sufficient to uncover and remove. These are sins of attitude, and motive, and desire, buried deep, complicated and subtle, such that, without God's help, they cannot ever be seen for what they are by the born-again person. That these sorts of sin are instantly eradicated at conversion is obviously nonsense for they are, in their subtlety, complexity and depth, often thought to be good and right things and celebrated by the one claiming to be free of all sin.

Then, too, the idea that sinless perfection is possible for a believer is, on its face, a silly idea because "perfection" is an indescribable condition, unknown in its actual dimensions to human beings. We refer to God as "perfect," but we don't fully understand what we're saying, what it is to be truly without flaw, to be in a condition that is so complete and excellent, so absent of any flaw, or lack, or deviation that it cannot be improved or diminished in the slightest way. And so, the Christian man who tries to assert that he is sinlessly-perfect I understand immediately to be fooling himself, claiming to be what he cannot actually understand, unable to hit the target of perfection he claims that he does because he has no proper, precise, and clear idea what it is.

And then, there are the many questions that arise against the notion of sinless perfection:

Why does God need to discipline His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) if they are perfect in their obedience to His commands, and so, without sin?

Why does the Spirit convict the 7 churches of Asia minor, if they are incapable of sin (Revelation 2-3)?

How is Paul's description of the divisive, contentious, sexually-immoral believers at Corinth as "carnal babes in Christ," "brethren," "temples of God," those who "are Christ's," and so on, possible, if, as such, they were unable to be carnal and sinful? (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11;17-34)

What of 1 John 1:8-10 where John explicitly says that anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived and a liar?

Why is every letter of the New Testament filled with instructions, commands and prohibitions to Christians if they are, as a natural consequence of being saved, unable any more to sin?

And so on.

 

[Hopeful]

1 John 3:9 does not stand alone, separate from the rest of God's word, nor above it. Rather, the verse is qualified and clarified by all that Scripture has to say about the believer and sin. And because this is so, it's impossible to understand John in the way you're trying to here, justbyfaith.

See: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11:17-34, Galatians 3:1-3, 4:9-12, 1 John 1:7-10, Romans 7:15-25, Revelation 2-3, etc.

As better translations of Scripture have been made, the sense of John's words in 1 John 3:9 has been more clearly rendered and come into fuller accord with the rest of God's word.

1 John 3:8-10 (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God...

John never indicated that the believer will be totally sin-free at some point, only that the genuine believer will not "make a practice of sinning"; that is, the believer will not persist in sin without pang of conscience, or conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3), without the discipline of the God occurring (Hebrews 12:5-11), without ever looking up from the pigpen and thinking, "I will go to my Father and say I have sinned against heaven and before you" (Luke 15:18). Though believers inevitably sin, they distinguish themselves as genuine believers by desiring God (loving Him) more than their sin and so act to overcome their sin by the means God has laid out in His word (repentance, confession, submission, faith). But every person who comes to God has layers of sin in their life, most well-hidden from the person's view, that not even a lifetime of walking with Him is necessarily sufficient to uncover and remove. These are sins of attitude, and motive, and desire, buried deep, complicated and subtle, such that, without God's help, they cannot ever be seen for what they are by the born-again person. That these sorts of sin are instantly eradicated at conversion is obviously nonsense for they are, in their subtlety, complexity and depth, often thought to be good and right things and celebrated by the one claiming to be free of all sin.

Then, too, the idea that sinless perfection is possible for a believer is, on its face, a silly idea because "perfection" is an indescribable condition, unknown in its actual dimensions to human beings. We refer to God as "perfect," but we don't fully understand what we're saying, what it is to be truly without flaw, to be in a condition that is so complete and excellent, so absent of any flaw, or lack, or deviation that it cannot be improved or diminished in the slightest way. And so, the Christian man who tries to assert that he is sinlessly-perfect I understand immediately to be fooling himself, claiming to be what he cannot actually understand, unable to hit the target of perfection he claims that he does because he has no proper, precise, and clear idea what it is.

And then, there are the many questions that arise against the notion of sinless perfection:

Why does God need to discipline His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) if they are perfect in their obedience to His commands, and so, without sin?

Why does the Spirit convict the 7 churches of Asia minor, if they are incapable of sin (Revelation 2-3)?

How is Paul's description of the divisive, contentious, sexually-immoral believers at Corinth as "carnal babes in Christ," "brethren," "temples of God," those who "are Christ's," and so on, possible, if, as such, they were unable to be carnal and sinful? (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11;17-34)

What of 1 John 1:8-10 where John explicitly says that anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived and a liar?

Why is every letter of the New Testament filled with instructions, commands and prohibitions to Christians if they are, as a natural consequence of being saved, unable any more to sin?

And so on.

I am saddened that you give more importance to men's rendering of scripture than to the actual effect of rebirth from God's seed.
You seem to think that grape seeds can indeed bring forth figs...once in a while.
The reborn of God cannot ever bring forth the fruit of the devil.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 3:9 does not stand alone, separate from the rest of God's word, nor above it. Rather, the verse is qualified and clarified by all that Scripture has to say about the believer and sin. And because this is so, it's impossible to understand John in the way you're trying to here, justbyfaith.

See: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11:17-34, Galatians 3:1-3, 4:9-12, 1 John 1:7-10, Romans 7:15-25, Revelation 2-3, etc.

As better translations of Scripture have been made, the sense of John's words in 1 John 3:9 has been more clearly rendered and come into fuller accord with the rest of God's word.

1 John 3:8-10 (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God...

John never indicated that the believer will be totally sin-free at some point, only that the genuine believer will not "make a practice of sinning"; that is, the believer will not persist in sin without pang of conscience, or conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3), without the discipline of the God occurring (Hebrews 12:5-11), without ever looking up from the pigpen and thinking, "I will go to my Father and say I have sinned against heaven and before you" (Luke 15:18). Though believers inevitably sin, they distinguish themselves as genuine believers by desiring God (loving Him) more than their sin and so act to overcome their sin by the means God has laid out in His word (repentance, confession, submission, faith). But every person who comes to God has layers of sin in their life, most well-hidden from the person's view, that not even a lifetime of walking with Him is necessarily sufficient to uncover and remove. These are sins of attitude, and motive, and desire, buried deep, complicated and subtle, such that, without God's help, they cannot ever be seen for what they are by the born-again person. That these sorts of sin are instantly eradicated at conversion is obviously nonsense for they are, in their subtlety, complexity and depth, often thought to be good and right things and celebrated by the one claiming to be free of all sin.

Then, too, the idea that sinless perfection is possible for a believer is, on its face, a silly idea because "perfection" is an indescribable condition, unknown in its actual dimensions to human beings. We refer to God as "perfect," but we don't fully understand what we're saying, what it is to be truly without flaw, to be in a condition that is so complete and excellent, so absent of any flaw, or lack, or deviation that it cannot be improved or diminished in the slightest way. And so, the Christian man who tries to assert that he is sinlessly-perfect I understand immediately to be fooling himself, claiming to be what he cannot actually understand, unable to hit the target of perfection he claims that he does because he has no proper, precise, and clear idea what it is.

And then, there are the many questions that arise against the notion of sinless perfection:

Why does God need to discipline His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) if they are perfect in their obedience to His commands, and so, without sin?

Why does the Spirit convict the 7 churches of Asia minor, if they are incapable of sin (Revelation 2-3)?

How is Paul's description of the divisive, contentious, sexually-immoral believers at Corinth as "carnal babes in Christ," "brethren," "temples of God," those who "are Christ's," and so on, possible, if, as such, they were unable to be carnal and sinful? (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11;17-34)

What of 1 John 1:8-10 where John explicitly says that anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived and a liar?

Why is every letter of the New Testament filled with instructions, commands and prohibitions to Christians if they are, as a natural consequence of being saved, unable any more to sin?

And so on.

You would do well to seek to understand scripture in light of the literal meaning of 1 John 3:9 and not the other way around. 1 John 3:9 does in fact stand alone as a bastion of scriptural light and truth; as does every other singular scripture in the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 3:9 does not stand alone, separate from the rest of God's word, nor above it. Rather, the verse is qualified and clarified by all that Scripture has to say about the believer and sin. And because this is so, it's impossible to understand John in the way you're trying to here, justbyfaith.

See: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11:17-34, Galatians 3:1-3, 4:9-12, 1 John 1:7-10, Romans 7:15-25, Revelation 2-3, etc.

As better translations of Scripture have been made, the sense of John's words in 1 John 3:9 has been more clearly rendered and come into fuller accord with the rest of God's word.

1 John 3:8-10 (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God...

John never indicated that the believer will be totally sin-free at some point, only that the genuine believer will not "make a practice of sinning"; that is, the believer will not persist in sin without pang of conscience, or conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3), without the discipline of the God occurring (Hebrews 12:5-11), without ever looking up from the pigpen and thinking, "I will go to my Father and say I have sinned against heaven and before you" (Luke 15:18). Though believers inevitably sin, they distinguish themselves as genuine believers by desiring God (loving Him) more than their sin and so act to overcome their sin by the means God has laid out in His word (repentance, confession, submission, faith). But every person who comes to God has layers of sin in their life, most well-hidden from the person's view, that not even a lifetime of walking with Him is necessarily sufficient to uncover and remove. These are sins of attitude, and motive, and desire, buried deep, complicated and subtle, such that, without God's help, they cannot ever be seen for what they are by the born-again person. That these sorts of sin are instantly eradicated at conversion is obviously nonsense for they are, in their subtlety, complexity and depth, often thought to be good and right things and celebrated by the one claiming to be free of all sin.

Then, too, the idea that sinless perfection is possible for a believer is, on its face, a silly idea because "perfection" is an indescribable condition, unknown in its actual dimensions to human beings. We refer to God as "perfect," but we don't fully understand what we're saying, what it is to be truly without flaw, to be in a condition that is so complete and excellent, so absent of any flaw, or lack, or deviation that it cannot be improved or diminished in the slightest way. And so, the Christian man who tries to assert that he is sinlessly-perfect I understand immediately to be fooling himself, claiming to be what he cannot actually understand, unable to hit the target of perfection he claims that he does because he has no proper, precise, and clear idea what it is.

And then, there are the many questions that arise against the notion of sinless perfection:

Why does God need to discipline His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) if they are perfect in their obedience to His commands, and so, without sin?

Why does the Spirit convict the 7 churches of Asia minor, if they are incapable of sin (Revelation 2-3)?

How is Paul's description of the divisive, contentious, sexually-immoral believers at Corinth as "carnal babes in Christ," "brethren," "temples of God," those who "are Christ's," and so on, possible, if, as such, they were unable to be carnal and sinful? (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11;17-34)

What of 1 John 1:8-10 where John explicitly says that anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived and a liar?

Why is every letter of the New Testament filled with instructions, commands and prohibitions to Christians if they are, as a natural consequence of being saved, unable any more to sin?

And so on.

I also consider that mankind is utterly sinful in the flesh; but that nevertheless he can walk in perfect obedience to the Holy Spirit for as long as Christ is living His life in and through the believer (see Galatians 2:20).

 

[gordon777]

Tenchi and all talkers need to confess their sins and see if their idle chat wont be accountable one day:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Ephesians 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

 

[Charlie24]

"Most theologians" is a big red flag to me.
Most of them still commit sin so have no reason to hide it or accept any good word that they don't have to commit sin anymore.
They are on a mission to incorporate sin into Christ.

Thank you for the definition.
Makes it clear nothing of the "old man" can survive...including its nature.
If some part of the old man continued to exist after its destruction, 2 Cor 5:17 would be a lie.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
It also makes sense of Jesus' words in Matt 9:17 and Mark 2:22 concerning new wine being put in new vessels.
If our old vessel (body) has new wine (Spirit) put in it, it will fail.

Each person has to decide for themselves if I'm teaching truth.

Accept or reject, I have done what the Lord required of me!

 

[Tenchi]

I am saddened that you give more importance to men's rendering of scripture than to the actual effect of rebirth from God's seed.
You seem to think that grape seeds can indeed bring forth figs...once in a while.
The reborn of God cannot ever bring forth the fruit of the devil.

??? Your being saddened doesn't make anything you wrote here about my view at all true. It certainly doesn't make your assertions true, either.

Really, this is a strange and facile response to what I've written in this thread.

 

[Tenchi]

You would do well to seek to understand scripture in light of the literal meaning of 1 John 3:9 and not the other way around. 1 John 3:9 does in fact stand alone as a bastion of scriptural light and truth; as does every other singular scripture in the Bible.

I'm always...puzzled and amused when people make these sorts of bald-faced assertions, as though they somehow rebut everything that has been shown to confound their clearly unbiblical views. They don't. Not even close. A mere assertion doesn't constitute an argument, or defense, of one's views. I can assert that the moon is made of green cheese, but asserting so obviously doesn't prove that it is. More is clearly required to defend such a bizarre idea - just like more is required in defense of your own strange and impossible view than raw, unsupported assertion.

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi and all talkers need to confess their sins and see if their idle chat wont be accountable one day:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Ephesians 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

gordon777, do you seriously believe that these finger-pointing criticisms are useful or effective? Dude, you are the living personification of the pot calling the kettle black. Before you tell others what they need to do, you might try doing it yourself. Sheesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm always...puzzled and amused when people make these sorts of bald-faced assertions, as though they somehow rebut everything that has been shown to confound their clearly unbiblical views. They don't. Not even close. A mere assertion doesn't constitute an argument, or defense, of one's views. I can assert that the moon is made of green cheese, but asserting so obviously doesn't prove that it is. More is clearly required to defend such a bizarre idea - just like more is required in defense of your own strange and impossible view than raw, unsupported assertion.

Obviously, whatever I say to you, you can take it or leave it.

I don't speak on my own authority but on the authority of the One who sent me.

Nevertheless, you have every right to reject His words as I proclaim them to you.

You are not obligated to receive the truth.

Of course, one thing about rejecting the truth is that for those who do so, it is often to their condemnation.

However, our God is all about freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

So, He is not going to force a decision on anyone.

You can obviously pick and choose what you want to believe.

 

[Hopeful]

??? Your being saddened doesn't make anything you wrote here about my view at all true. It certainly doesn't make your assertions true, either.

Really, this is a strange and facile response to what I've written in this thread.

Why not just accept what is written in 1 John 3:9 and 3:10 instead of nullifying it with "practice".
Can God's seed ever bring forth the fruit of the devil?
No.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm always...puzzled and amused when people make these sorts of bald-faced assertions, as though they somehow rebut everything that has been shown to confound their clearly unbiblical views. They don't. Not even close. A mere assertion doesn't constitute an argument, or defense, of one's views. I can assert that the moon is made of green cheese, but asserting so obviously doesn't prove that it is. More is clearly required to defend such a bizarre idea - just like more is required in defense of your own strange and impossible view than raw, unsupported assertion.

Is it really a bizarre idea that reborn men can and will serve God perfectly?

 

[justbyfaith]

Is it really a bizarre idea that reborn men can and will serve God perfectly?

Have you considered Galatians 6:13 and Galatians 3:10?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You would do well to seek to understand scripture in light of the literal meaning of 1 John 3:9 and not the other way around. 1 John 3:9 does in fact stand alone as a bastion of scriptural light and truth; as does every other singular scripture in the Bible.

You would do well to compare scripture with scripture to arrive at true understanding and not take singular sentences out of context. Singular sentences taken out of the whole easily lead to error.

 

[justbyfaith]

You would do well to compare scripture with scripture to arrive at true understanding and not take singular sentences out of context. Singular sentences taken out of the whole easily lead to error.

Scriptures as they are literally read at face value are rarely taken out of context.

Context will never contradict the plain meaning of any singular verse, whether that context is immediate or topical. This is a first rule of hermeneutics. It is based on the concept that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

When we compare the scripture we are looking at with other scripture, at best we will find added insight into the scripture that we are looking at.

However, one thing we will never find in applying the hermeneutic of 1 Corinthians 2:13...we will never find that the scripture we are looking at is nullified by other scripture or that the plain meaning of the verse is changed when we add other scripture to it.

That scripture still stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth; even if, in comparing it with other scripture, we gain added insight so that we find a slightly different meaning in comparing scripture to scripture. The scripture in question does not lose its meaning as it stands as a singular verse in holy scripture.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Scriptures as they are literally read at face value are rarely taken out of context.

You are joking right? gordon777 took "be ye perfect" totally out of context and thinks God DEMANDS perfection in everything we do which is not at all what the author wrote. You take one verse in Jeremiah and think that expresses the whole of the Bible on the subject. I gave you scriptures that show you are taking verses out of the context in which they are written.

Context will never contradict the plain meaning of any singular verse, whether that context is immediate or topical. This is a first rule of hermeneutics. It is based on the concept that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

You are joking right? I can look for further examples as this is SO COMMON here it will not take long to find another who takes ONE verse out of the context and draws a theology that is refuted elsewhere.

Here is a definition of the first rule of hermeneutics: The golden rule of interpretation is: “When the plain sense of the scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.”

When we compare the scripture we are looking at with other scripture, at best we will find added insight into the scripture that we are looking at.

Then you ought to do so. Your position that all men are desperately wicked all the time is NOT in scripture. You stick to ONE line and ignore the various ones that show that is not the view of the Bible.

However, one thing we will never find in applying the hermeneutic of 1 Corinthians 2:13...we will never find that the scripture we are looking at is nullified by other scripture or that the plain meaning of the verse is changed when we add other scripture to it.

Well, except how you interpret it is NOT THE PLAIN meaning of the text.

That scripture still stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth; even if, in comparing it with other scripture, we gain added insight so that we find a slightly different meaning in comparing scripture to scripture. The scripture in question does not lose its meaning as it stands as a singular verse in holy scripture.

OK, I guess no Scripture will convince you to rethink your position. It is rock solid in your mind. No matter how many verses I show you that your view of that one line in Jeremiah is not what the Bible teaches, you will not budge.

I guess the discussion has reached a dead end.