THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

[jeremiah1five]

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. Eph 5:25–30.

Christ definitely had His Church in mind when He came and when He died and when He resurrected and eventually ascended.
His Church is ever in His Mind.
His whole thought was on those the Father gave the Son:

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but dI lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jn 10:14–18.

Christ cried out in a loud voice, "Father, forgive them..."

The "Them" are those that are His Church, past, present, and future.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Jn 17:9–10.

Our High Priest was concentrated on His Ministry of praying for the people of God and offering sacrifice for the people of God.
He was extremely conscientious and well purposed to His work.

 

[journeyman]

Christ cried out in a loud voice, "Father, forgive them..."

The "Them" are those that are His Church, past, present, and future.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Jn 17:9–10.

The passage from Luke is a prophecy from Psa.22, where "they" are the people who mocked and abused him.

Our Savior showed by his enduring their abuse that he gives people time to repent of their sins against him. Just as our Father does.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The passage from Luke is a prophecy from Psa.22, where "they" are the people who mocked and abused him.

Our Savior showed by his enduring their abuse that he gives people time to repent of their sins against him. Just as our Father does.

The High Priest does two things: He prays for the people of God in Covenant and He offers sacrifice for the people of God in Covenant.
John 17 is the prayer for the people of God in Covenant and the cross is the offering of Himself as sacrifice.
When you read John 17 take notice of two groups of people being identified: "THEM" (those for whom Christ died,) and "the world" (those for whom Christ did not die/atone.)

Being High Priest Christ did not pray for the world (Jn. 17:9) neither offer sacrifice for the world.
Pretty much the world is without a prayer as the saying goes.

 

[journeyman]

The High Priest does two things: He prays for the people of God in Covenant and He offers sacrifice for the people of God in Covenant.

I agree my friend, but the people Aaron prayed and offered sacrifice for died in the wilderness. The NT appears to cite this passage from the OT as pertaining to unrepentant sinners who were barred from the promised land. Heb.3:17-18 & 1Cor.10 (the whole chapter) are warnings to believers, or people who think they're Gods' people.

John 17 is the prayer for the people of God in Covenant and the cross is the offering of Himself as sacrifice.

And rightfully so. As the Apostles grew in the knowledge of Christ, they went from angry, cowardly men, to warriors against sins that would be committed against them as Jesus did. Even their own murders...as Jesus did. We need to pray for each other as our Lord did for us. Seriously, aside from any difference we may have about scripture, our hearts should always want the best for other believers. (Pl.2:3)

When you read John 17 take notice of two groups of people being identified: "THEM" (those for whom Christ died,) and "the world" (those for whom Christ did not die/atone.)

Being High Priest Christ did not pray for the world (Jn. 17:9) neither offer sacrifice for the world.
Pretty much the world is without a prayer as the saying goes.

Again you're right, but the gospel of Jesus the Jew who gentiles all over the place believe in the One true God, wasn't known (or forgotten completely) by the descendants of our 1st parents.

Jesus also said he wasn't sent to a gentile dog. And that gentile begged him.

I'd like also for you and others to consider how God doesn't hear the prayers of people who aren't serious about him. Jesus doesn't intercede for anyone who treats God like crap.

When he is judged, let him be found guilty,
And let his prayer become sin. Psa.109:7

That sounds like someone who's under constant judgement taking grace for granted.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree my friend, but the people Aaron prayed and offered sacrifice for died in the wilderness. The NT appears to cite this passage from the OT as pertaining to unrepentant sinners who were barred from the promised land. Heb.3:17-18 & 1Cor.10 (the whole chapter) are warnings to believers, or people who think they're Gods' people.

And rightfully so. As the Apostles grew in the knowledge of Christ, they went from angry, cowardly men, to warriors against sins that would be committed against them as Jesus did. Even their own murders...as Jesus did. We need to pray for each other as our Lord did for us. Seriously, aside from any difference we may have about scripture, our hearts should always want the best for other believers. (Pl.2:3)

Again you're right, but the gospel of Jesus the Jew who gentiles all over the place believe in the One true God, wasn't known (or forgotten completely) by the descendants of our 1st parents.

Jesus also said he wasn't sent to a gentile dog. And that gentile begged him.

I'd like also for you and others to consider how God doesn't hear the prayers of people who aren't serious about him. Jesus doesn't intercede for anyone who treats God like crap.

When he is judged, let him be found guilty,
And let his prayer become sin. Psa.109:7

That sounds like someone who's under constant judgement taking grace for granted.

The Day of Atonement occurred every year for all Israel.

God doesn't hear the prayers of those that are not His and under Covenant:

31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Jn 9:31.

The religious leaders didn't like being schooled by one they considered a sinner. And one cannot be a worshiper of God unless God grants it:

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest,
And causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:
Ps 65:4.

One who is a true believer cannot take grace for granted.
God will not allow it and doesn't.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why not?
If you love someone do your think the person you love might love you back?

God has experienced loving people who do not love Him back and people know what that is like as well. Being loved does not mean one loves in return.

Why in the world would you think that a loving God would not be thinking of you during His greatest sacrifice?

Because humans do not think of others when in extreme pain. You can read about the mind during painful moments. Why is it necessary to think he thought of you? About you thinking of him and his pain for a change?

Also you got the details all wrong about who Jesus referenced while on the cross.

You need to read the whole account. He told John to take care of his mother. You got the details wrong. He said more than one sentence.

Forgive them for they know not what they do... was not directed to His mother.
I thirst... was not directed to His mother.
You asked me to challenge you when you say you know the Bible... and here is a point where you failed that test.

Untrue. It is you who failed the test. "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."

Tendencies are different than narcissism.

Just like apples are different than sandles.

You keep changing your definitions every time you are challenged.

Show me. I do not believe you. I think it is that you do cannot answer.

Yes I went to college and had 3 family members that were teachers. Drilled English into my little brain since I could toddle.

And you still do not know the word "tendencies" or "indications" and how it is used instead of the simple High School "I know" as it shows evidence of the position?

So God did not see you because you were not alive?

We never discussed what God saw. I said I did not sin when Jesus was on the cross because I was not alive. Why is this a difficult concept?

You have a small view of God.

Ah contrar. I have a true and much larger view or understanding of God than you suspect.

The logical working out of your idea that God could not see you from the cross.

Why would he want to do so? There were other more pressing matters.

What theology?
I am using your statements... following them to their end point and expressing the results of that process.

You can do so, but you need to not expand adding to what was not said. If I said Fred has a special house, it does not say anything about Ted's house. You seem to think it does.

So what is the theology you think I was taught?

That Jesus thought of you while dying on the cross or that your personal sin was the reason he went to the cross as though if you had never been born the cross would have been unnecessary.

I often will argue things that I do not believe personally to test the ideas of others.

Bravo. Then you will be an interesting person to discuss things with.

Often I will vehemently defend a position I do not hold to see the conviction of the person on the other side.
So, please, tell me what I believe.
And you say I pass judgement on you without asking questions.

I did not say what you believe and even if I do, that is not a judgment. But I already answered this so can you tell me if I got it right? THat you believe Jesus went to the cross thinking of you all the while?

 

[Paul Timothy]

God has experienced loving people who do not love Him back and people know what that is like as well. Being loved does not mean one loves in return.

Again you misunderstand my point.
I never said what you imply I did.
If you want me to stop using this argument... stop getting my words wrong.

Because humans do not think of others when in extreme pain. You can read about the mind during painful moments. Why is it necessary to think he thought of you? About you thinking of him and his pain for a change?

So Jesus was not God when He was on the cross?
If He didn't think of me then how could He deal with my sin or forgive me?
And the song in question is addressing the pain of Jesus directly.

You need to read the whole account. He told John to take care of his mother. You got the details wrong. He said more than one sentence.

I know... you are the one who said He didn't speak to anyone else.

Untrue. It is you who failed the test. "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."

How is this a fail on.my part? I didn't even address this part of the conversation.

Just like apples are different than sandles.

And you are the one who used the ideas as interchangeable.

Show me. I do not believe you. I think it is that you do cannot answer.

Sorry I seem to have lost the original question. What did you need to explain to you?

And you still do not know the word "tendencies" or "indications" and how it is used instead of the simple High School "I know" as it shows evidence of the position?

Tendencies, indications and knowledge are three different things.
All three of the above are different from evidence of the position.

We never discussed what God saw. I said I did not sin when Jesus was on the cross because I was not alive. Why is this a difficult concept?

So your sins are not forgiven. That is the logical outworking of your position.

Ah contrar. I have a true and much larger view or understanding of God than you suspect.

Share.

Why would he want to do so? There were other more pressing matters.

There were more pressing matters on the cross than Jesus forgiving sins?
That is the position you are going with?
What would these pressing matters be?

You can do so, but you need to not expand adding to what was not said. If I said Fred has a special house, it does not say anything about Ted's house. You seem to think it does.

It does in fact say something about Ted's house.
Special definition:better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.
There is an implication that Ted's house is the usual.
If something is special it is only special because of the contrast against the usual background.

That Jesus thought of you while dying on the cross or that your personal sin was the reason he went to the cross as though if you had never been born the cross would have been unnecessary.

If you where the only sinner on Earth... would Jesus have gone to the cross for you?

Bravo. Then you will be an interesting person to discuss things with.

OK.

I did not say what you believe and even if I do, that is not a judgment. But I already answered this so can you tell me if I got it right? THat you believe Jesus went to the cross thinking of you all the while?

And you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again you misunderstand my point.

You start every post that way! Sigh! Pretty sure I understand perfectly but you have no answer.

I never said what you imply I did.
If you want me to stop using this argument... stop getting my words wrong.

Stop saying I did without clarification on any kind.

So Jesus was not God when He was on the cross?

Who says that? Talk about getting words WRONG!!!!

If He didn't think of me then how could He deal with my sin or forgive me?

That came later.

And the song in question is addressing the pain of Jesus directly.

Where?

I know... you are the one who said He didn't speak to anyone else.

Where did I say that??!!

How is this a fail on.my part? I didn't even address this part of the conversation.

And you are the one who used the ideas as interchangeable.

No I didn’t.

Sorry I seem to have lost the original question. What did you need to explain to you?

What you think you said.

Tendencies, indications and knowledge are three different things.
All three of the above are different from evidence of the position.

So your sins are not forgiven. That is the logical outworking of your position.

Huh?

Share.

There were more pressing matters on the cross than Jesus forgiving sins?
That is the position you are going with?
What would these pressing matters be?

If you don’t understand plain words you won’t understand the answer to the above.

It does in fact say something about Ted's house.
Special definition:better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.

No it doesn’t. It might mean special as compared to his last house.

There is an implication that Ted's house is the usual.
If something is special it is only special because of the contrast against the usual background.

If you where the only sinner on Earth... would Jesus have gone to the cross for you?


OK.

And you.

We might end this soon. I’m weary of the same opening sentence you post.

 

[Paul Timothy]

You start every post that way! Sigh! Pretty sure I understand perfectly but you have no answer.

Answer to what? I don't recall a question.

Stop saying I did without clarification on any kind.

I clarified that you got my words wrong. There is your clarification.

Who says that? Talk about getting words WRONG!!!!

When talking about Jesus on the cross you only spoke of His human aspects.
So by implication you are saying that His divine nature was not in play while on the cross.
Do I have to spell everything out every time I show you make unclear statements.

That came later.

So Jesus paid for my/your sins some time other than the cross?
Everyones sins that are forgiven after 30AD are paid for with what event?

Where?

In the very line you quoted in your post.

Where did I say that??!!

Post 99
"He did not talk about anyone in particular besides his mother."... these are your words.
i

No I didn’t.

Yes you did.

What you think you said.

And I lost the post where I said anything... so I don't know what you are referring to.

Huh?

If you don't understand you have to look into your original idea.
I am only following your idea to it's logical end.

If you don’t understand plain words you won’t understand the answer to the above.

Maybe... try me.

No it doesn’t. It might mean special as compared to his last house.

Yes it does. And it might mean special as compared to Ted's house.

We might end this soon. I’m weary of the same opening sentence you post.

Then maybe get things right and I will use a different sentence.
Until you learn to read the words as I have written them, asking questions if unclear... this confusion will continue.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Answer to what? I don't recall a question.

I clarified that you got my words wrong. There is your clarification.

When talking about Jesus on the cross you only spoke of His human aspects.
So by implication you are saying that His divine nature was not in play while on the cross.
Do I have to spell everything out every time I show you make unclear statements.

So Jesus paid for my/your sins some time other than the cross?
Everyones sins that are forgiven after 30AD are paid for with what event?

In the very line you quoted in your post.

Post 99
"He did not talk about anyone in particular besides his mother."... these are your words.
i

Yes you did.

And I lost the post where I said anything... so I don't know what you are referring to.

If you don't understand you have to look into your original idea.
I am only following your idea to it's logical end.

Maybe... try me.

Yes it does. And it might mean special as compared to Ted's house.

Then maybe get things right and I will use a different sentence.
Until you learn to read the words as I have written them, asking questions if unclear... this confusion will continue.

We’re done.

 

[Paul Timothy]

We’re done.

So you give up answering questions?
Your choice.

 

[journeyman]

The Day of Atonement occurred every year for all Israel.

God doesn't hear the prayers of those that are not His and under Covenant:

31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Jn 9:31.

The religious leaders didn't like being schooled by one they considered a sinner. And one cannot be a worshiper of God unless God grants it:

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest,
And causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:
Ps 65:4.

God has chosen a type of people. Gods' people are belivers, people who live by faith,

God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:1Cor.1:27-28

One who is a true believer cannot take grace for granted.
God will not allow it and doesn't.

I think people who come to faith in God can turn their backs on him. The Bible warns believers about this,

I will therefore put youin remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jde.1:5

 

[jeremiah1five]

God has chosen a type of people. Gods' people are belivers, people who live by faith,

God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:1Cor.1:27-28

I think people who come to faith in God can turn their backs on him. The Bible warns believers about this,

I will therefore put youin remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jde.1:5

In the Old Testament under the Covenant of Works the people of God lived by sight not by faith.

21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people. Ex 13:21–22.

But of course, trust was key.

God cannot deny Himself. He is the Author and Finisher of faith. He is Faith Personified. He is Faith Himself.
He cannot deny Himself.

 

[journeyman]

In the Old Testament under the Covenant of Works the people of God lived by sight not by faith.

21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people. Ex 13:21–22.

But of course, trust was key.

Many saw the law as a source of pride. They believed the law made them morally superior to others, but the NT says Gods' reason for the law is to show that we're all sinners.

God cannot deny Himself. He is the Author and Finisher of faith. He is Faith Personified. He is Faith Himself.
He cannot deny Himself.

God never denied his Son. Ungodly men did. Read the scriptures this way and they all fall into perfect harmony.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Many saw the law as a source of pride. They believed the law made them morally superior to others, but the NT says Gods' reason for the law is to show that we're all sinners.

God never denied his Son. Ungodly men did. Read the scriptures this way and they all fall into perfect harmony.

Faith cannot deny Faith.
God IS a respecter of persons and being a Chosen people and the apple of His eye enforced this pride of the Covenant people.
God commanded them to love their brethren and the children of [thy] people.
To love the Goyim is treasonous to God.
There was nothing wrong with their pride in God and their Law.
It separated them from those not in Covenant with God.
And that was the Will of God.
There is no change in the Law of God to love our true-born fellow Christians in Christ as originally commanded and commanded still.
To love the world which opposes God is treasonous to our King.

 

[journeyman]

Faith cannot deny Faith.
God IS a respecter of persons and being a Chosen people and the apple of His eye enforced this pride of the Covenant people.
God commanded them to love their brethren and the children of [thy] people.

The "chosen people" have always been people of faith in God, regardless of race. After gentiles heard and believed the gospel Peter said,

Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act.10:34

Even in the OT, gentiles who joined themselves to Israel by keeping the Mosaic law as God intended was condidered a native.

To love the Goyim is treasonous to God.

No, but to love the things of this world is treasonous to God,

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1Jn.2:16

There was nothing wrong with their pride in God and their Law.
It separated them from those not in Covenant with God.
And that was the Will of God.

The will of God is to think about his law and consider how often I've broken it,

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall noflesh be justified in his sight: for bythe law is the knowledge of sin. Rom.3:20

There is no change in the Law of God to love our true-born fellow Christians in Christ as originally commanded and commanded still.
To love the world which opposes God is treasonous to our King.

The NT says the gospel would be preached in all the world because God so loved it.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The "chosen people" have always been people of faith in God, regardless of race. After gentiles heard and believed the gospel Peter said,

Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act.10:34

Even in the OT, gentiles who joined themselves to Israel by keeping the Mosaic law as God intended was condidered a native.

No, but to love the things of this world is treasonous to God,

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1Jn.2:16

The will of God is to think about his law and consider how often I've broken it,

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall noflesh be justified in his sight: for bythe law is the knowledge of sin. Rom.3:20

The NT says the gospel would be preached in all the world because God so loved it.

Notice God is a respecter of persons:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. Gen. 4:3–5.

Naming Abel and Cain refer to their personhood. God is a respecter of persons as He has had respect towards His Covenant people: Israel. The Abrahamic Covenant was a familial Covenant: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. So, yes, it was a racial thing with God. While all this TIME millions died OUTSIDE this Covenant, without hope, without salvation.

If God loves 'you,' God will save 'you.' If God doesn't love 'you,' God will not save 'you.'

The 'good news' [gospel] is to the twelve tribes of Israel.
The 'good news' to Israel is that God has kept His Promise to His Chosen people, Israel.
God has sent Israel's Prophet like unto Moses to the twelve tribes.
THAT IS the good news.

 

[journeyman]

Notice God is a respecter of persons:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. Gen. 4:3–5.

Naming Abel and Cain refer to their personhood. God is a respecter of persons as He has had respect towards His Covenant people: Israel. The Abrahamic Covenant was a familial Covenant: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. So, yes, it was a racial thing with God. While all this TIME millions died OUTSIDE this Covenant, without hope, without salvation.

If God loves 'you,' God will save 'you.' If God doesn't love 'you,' God will not save 'you.'

The 'good news' [gospel] is to the twelve tribes of Israel.
The 'good news' to Israel is that God has kept His Promise to His Chosen people, Israel.
God has sent Israel's Prophet like unto Moses to the twelve tribes.m
THAT IS the good news.

The NT interprets the OT. The NT says the covenant God made with Abraham is not familial,

begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones and to raise up children unto Abraham. Lk.3:8

they are not all Israel,which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are theyall children Rom.9:6-7

The "seed" of Abraham is Christ,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal.3:16

Believers are Gods' people.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The NT interprets the OT. The NT says the covenant God made with Abraham is not familial,

begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones and to raise up children unto Abraham. Lk.3:8

they are not all Israel,which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are theyall children Rom.9:6-7

The "seed" of Abraham is Christ,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal.3:16

Believers are Gods' people.

Notice God is a respecter of persons:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. Gen. 4:3–5.

God IS a respecter of PERSONS.

 

[journeyman]

Notice God is a respecter of persons:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. Gen. 4:3–5.

God IS a respecter of PERSONS.

Our Father also told Cain, "If thou doest well,shalt thou not be accepted?" Gen.4:7

Cain would have been accepted just like hus brother, so Abel wasn't accepted for no earthly reason. I'm commenting on the scripture you've posted.

God was speaking to unbelieving Jews when he said, "they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11

Are you willing to look at the scripture I posted?