THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

[GodsGrace]

I don't think you can be.
Or you could ask a question with an open mind and maybe you will learn something new.

PLEASE TREAT ALL MEMBERS WITH RESPECT.
AVOID SARCASM.
ADDRESS THE TOPIC AND NOT THE MEMBER.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH THE STAFF IF NECESSARY.
THANKS.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You got a like from Fastfredy0 .
I'm jealous.

you're second paragraph is correct, I'd only add that, biblically, free will refers to moral choices.
Free will is the ability to choose between two moral options without outside coercion.

There is also a philosophical definition of free will but I'm not familiar with it. I just know that it's more complicated.

That may be the textbook definition, but the sin nature affects our choices.
Paul covers this in Romans 7.
Still, free will has no bearing on spiritual matters.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You got a like from @Fastfredy0 .
I'm jealous.

Actually, I thought the conversation was going no where so I was graciously bowing out with a "like".

Free will is the ability to choose between two moral options without outside coercion.

Hallelujah and Amen. Someone defined the "FREE" part of "FREE WILL".
Every definition of FREE WILL I know of assumes no coercion.
Libertarian Free Will.. your choice is uninfluenced by anything, including your desire
Reformed Free Will ... your choice is determined by your desire; you desire is determined by God
Arminian Free Will ... never seen a definition. They don't say what one is free from save coercion which every definition agrees to. The problem is that people do what they desire most but they are not free to choose their desires and therefore their choices are not entirely free. (Aside: they resort to prevenient grace)

The consensus of reputable scholars who focus on the study of free will in the ancient world are abundantly clear that it is not to be found in the bible.[11][12][13]
The leading scholar on the subject of Free Will in Antiquity, Michael Frede, observed that "freedom and free will cannot be found in either the Septuagint or the New Testament and must have come to the Christians mainly from Stoicism."[14]
Frede wrote that he could not find either the language of free will nor even any assumption of it in the New Testament or the Greek Old Testament.[15] According to Frede, the early Church fathers most certainly developed their doctrine of free will from the pagans.[16]
Another Oxford scholar, Dr. Alister McGrath, concurs entirely with Frede, “The term ‘free will’ is not biblical, but derives from Stoicism. It was introduced into Western Christianity by the second-century theologian Tertullian.”[17]
Pauline expert, Troels Engberg-Pedersen, unequivocally insists that, “Paul firmly believed in divine determination as an intrinsic part of his whole conception of God.”[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology

There is also a philosophical definition of free will but I'm not familiar with it. I just know that it's more complicated.

Libertarian Free Will - Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).
As Arminian notions of that liberty are inconsistent with common sense, in their being inconsistent with all virtuous or vicious habits and dispositions; so they are inconsistent with all influence of Motives in moral actions.--Such influence have a tendency to move the inclination. For if Motives operate by giving the mind an inclination, then they operate by destroying the mind's indifference, and laying it under a bias. But to do this, is to destroy the Arminian freedom: argument. For if Motives operate by giving the mind an inclination, then they operate by destroying the mind's indifference (Free Will), and laying it under a bias. But to do this, is to destroy the Arminian freedom. Edwards, Jonathan.

The choosing comes from the individual rather than an outside force the decision is made freely. Gordon Clark

"The will of man without the grace of God is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." - Martin Luther
Johnathon Edwards Definition - A man never, in any instance, wills anything contrary to his desires [greatest perceived pleasing of chooser], or desires anything contrary to his Will. The Determination of the Will, supposes an effect, which must have a cause.
We allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
- John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your Jesus sounds like a self centered narcissist.

If you listen to the songs sung in modern churches, you will find that they are often extrem narcissistic.

“you took the fall and thought of me most of all”

“you didn’t want Heaven without me (us)”

“Jesus I praise you for all you’ve done for me”

“I want”… “give me”…me me me me me I I I I I

Just count the number of time “me” or “I” is sung….narcissistic pure.

 

[Paul Timothy]

If you listen to the songs sung in modern churches, you will find that they are often extrem narcissistic.

“you took the fall and thought of me most of all”

“you didn’t want Heaven without me (us)”

“Jesus I praise you for all you’ve done for me”

“I want”… “give me”…me me me me me I I I I I

Just count the number of time “me” or “I” is sung….narcissistic pure.

I didn't recognize a single song lyric you posted. You obviously sing very different songs in your part of the woods.

But I get your point.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I didn't recognize a single song lyric you posted. You obviously sing very different songs in your part of the woods.

But I get your point.

I’m glad to hear it. It isn’t so of all churches but those who sing Hillsong or Bethel songs will be such. It’s the tendency. The one is from “what a wonderful name”and is one line.

We used to sing “how great thou art” and now we sing about how great we are. (Notice the songs that boast of our devotion.)

 

[Paul Timothy]

I’m glad to hear it. It isn’t so of all churches but those who sing Hillsong or Bethel songs will be such. It’s the tendency. The one is from “what a wonderful name”and is one line.

We used to sing “how great thou art” and now we sing about how great we are. (Notice the songs that boast of our devotion.)

I would say that this is an indication that the "great apostasy" is almost upon us, if not already is.

 

[Highway54]

That definition is very general. The definition of "libertarian free will" fits your definition. Augustine's definition free will also fits your definition. Yet "libertarian free will" and "Augustine's definition" conflict because they are more specific. What does FREE in free will mean? Free from what? Free from God's influence as arminians claim, free from any influence as "libertarian free will" claims, simply free to do whatever you desire as Augustine claims? Your definition fits all three. Your definition is the same as "you have a choice".

Reminds me of the song do a little side step. Simple truth is, we have freedom of choice within the guidelines of God's law. It is no different than mans law in that aspect. The law says 55 mph, you do not have to drive 55, you can drive any speed you choose under 55 and be within the guidelines of the law. On most interstates there is a minimum of 45 with a maximum of 70, which means anywhere in that range is within the guidelines of the law sir.

I don't really think you are ignorant, so why the debate on such a simple topic? Now understanding God's law, that is something quite different, and certainly subject to debate.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The law says 55 mph, you do not have to drive 55, you can drive any speed you choose under 55 and be within the guidelines of the law. On most interstates there is a minimum of 45 with a maximum of 70, which means anywhere in that range is within the guidelines of the law sir.

Yeah, but why do you go 60 and not 65. Who determined your desires. Did God give you a disposition to go 60? Did your parents or the driving school instructor cause you to desire to go 60?
You can choose to do what you desire, but you can't determine what your desires are; what you will like and not like to do. The FREE part in the definition of FREE WILL is the part that says what/who does (or does not) determine your desires.

If you think you control your instincts, your desires that you were born with then you have a logical fallacy:
Self-determinism, as proposed by some definitions of freewill, means one makes choices independent of God and any other influence. This is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Self determined Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes. It contradicts the Law of Causality. Author Unknown

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would say that this is an indication that the "great apostasy" is almost upon us, if not already is.

Here’s a narcissistic line from a song sung Sunday,

“I’ll never know how much it costs to see my sin upon the cross.”

 

[Paul Timothy]

Here’s a narcissistic line from a song sung Sunday,

“I’ll never know how much it costs to see my sin upon the cross.”

How is that narcissistic?

So you know own exactly what was going through the mind of Christ when Hebwas on the cross?
About you? What did Jesus think about your postings while 9n the cross? You say 6ou have.perfect understanding of sin and what it takes to cover it?

Your post sounds like yje narcissistic one here.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How is that narcissistic?

The focus is on the singer. That’s narcissistic.

So you know own exactly what was going through the mind of Christ when Hebwas on the cross?

I know what he said which indicates what he thought.

About you? What did Jesus think about your postings while 9n the cross?

I didn’t post while he was on the cross.

You say 6ou have.perfect understanding of sin and what it takes to cover it?

When did I say that?

Your post sounds like yje narcissistic one here.

Ok, the definition of narcissistic needs to addressed although I suspect it’s the usual ad hominem response when all else fails. It goes like this…you got no logical answer, call the other a nasty name.

 

[Paul Timothy]

The focus is on the singer. That’s narcissistic.

So you do not understand narcissism.
The pharisee and the tax collector both prayed self focused prayers... which one was narcissistic?

I know what he said which indicates what he thought.

"indicates" is not equal to "know".
So you do not know.

I didn’t post while he was on the cross.

So Christ did not die for your sins?
You were not sinning while Christ was on the cross so He did not die for you.
That is your idea not mine.

When did I say that?

I never said you did.
I asked the question to expand on my previous statements.

Ok, the definition of narcissistic needs to addressed although I suspect it’s the usual ad hominem response when all else fails. It goes like this…you got no logical answer, call the other a nasty name.

That is not the definition of narcissistic.
You might want to look up what the word means before trying to define it so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you do not understand narcissism.

Much better than you do it seems. You accuse me of narcissism for pointing out narcissistic songs.

The pharisee and the tax collector both prayed self focused prayers... which one was narcissistic?

You don’t get it. Asking God for something for ourselves isn’t narcissistic. Thinking Jesus and God think mainly about us is.

"indicates" is not equal to "know".
So you do not know.

I know. But I’m fairly skilled in English and can wield a variety of words. “Indicates” is more gentle and gives the evidence for what I know.

So Christ did not die for your sins?

Huh? Where is that coming from?

You were not sinning while Christ was on the cross so He did not die for you.
That is your idea not mine.

No, I hadn’t been yet born so I couldn’t have been sinning in the first century.

I never said you did.
I asked the question to expand on my previous statements.

Ok, well it’s better if you don’t assume a position I never indicated I hold.

That is not the definition of narcissistic.
You might want to look up what the word means before trying to define it so.

You should look it up before falsely accusing others of it.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Much better than you do it seems. You accuse me of narcissism for pointing out narcissistic songs.

You have not explained how the song is narcissistic.

You don’t get it. Asking God for something for ourselves isn’t narcissistic. Thinking Jesus and God think mainly about us is.

You are incorrect about what is narcissistic.

I know. But I’m fairly skilled in English and can wield a variety of words. “Indicates” is more gentle and gives the evidence for what I know.

That is also an incorrect use of the English language.

Huh? Where is that coming from?

From your statement.

No, I hadn’t been yet born so I couldn’t have been sinning in the first century.

So Jesus could not have had your sins on the cross. That is your conclusion not mine.

Ok, well it’s better if you don’t assume a position I never indicated I hold.

You did.
"I didn’t post while he was on the cross."
Therefore you are saying that your current activities were not available to Jesus while He was on the cross.

You should look it up before falsely accusing others of it.

You defined narcissism as "It goes like this…you got no logical answer, call the other a nasty name."
Not even near the right definition.
Please show how I have falsely accused others of narcissism.
But you have.
The song you quoted is the same as the tax collectors prayer.
To paraphrase the song... "I will never understand the price Jesus paid for my sin, I am not worthy of His great sacrifice".
Please explain how this is a narcissistic statement.

 

[Highway54]

Yeah, but why do you go 60 and not 65. Who determined your desires. Did God give you a disposition to go 60? Did your parents or the driving school instructor cause you to desire to go 60?
You can choose to do what you desire, but you can't determine what your desires are; what you will like and not like to do. The FREE part in the definition of FREE WILL is the part that says what/who does (or does not) determine your desires.

If you think you control your instincts, your desires that you were born with then you have a logical fallacy:
Self-determinism, as proposed by some definitions of freewill, means one makes choices independent of God and any other influence. This is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Self determined Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes. It contradicts the Law of Causality. Author Unknown

I think you understood my point Fred.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You have not explained how the song is narcissistic.

Yes I did. But isn’t it obvious? The person thinks God thought of them personally while Jesus was suffering.

You are incorrect about what is narcissistic.

No I am not. The narcissistic thinks of themselves a lot.

That is also an incorrect use of the English language.

Explain

From your statement.

So Jesus could not have had your sins on the cross. That is your conclusion not mine.

No, I said I wasn’t sinning when Jesus was on the cross because I didn’t live in the first century. It’s that obvious?

You did.
"I didn’t post while he was on the cross."

Correct. I wasn’t alive when he was on the cross so I can’t have been posting.

Therefore you are saying that your current activities were not available to Jesus while He was on the cross.

There’s no evidence that Jesus was thinking of my current activities when he was on the cross. I’m not narcissistic.

You defined narcissism as "It goes like this…you got no logical answer, call the other a nasty name."

No, that was my observation of your attacking my character when you had no answer. I said that wasa as hominem, not narcissistic.

Not even near the right definition.
Please show how I have falsely accused others of narcissism.

I have no idea about others, but you accused me.

But you have.
The song you quoted is the same as the tax collectors prayer.

No, it’s nothing like it. It assumes God Almighty looked atJesus and thought of the one singing.

To paraphrase the song... "I will never understand the price Jesus paid for my sin, I am not worthy of His great sacrifice".

That’s better. You improved it.

Please explain how this is a narcissistic statement.

It isn’t. Your statement is humble. The other claims God looked at Jesus’ suffering and thought of the person singing.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Yes I did. But isn’t it obvious? The person thinks God thought of them personally while Jesus was suffering.

And you think that Jesus did not care about the individual when upon the cross?

No I am not. The narcissistic thinks of themselves a lot.

More than that. Maybe read the story where the word comes from.

Explain

Indicate is not a more gentle version of the word know.
Very poor use of the language.

No, I said I wasn’t sinning when Jesus was on the cross because I didn’t live in the first century. It’s that obvious?

So if you were not sinning while Jesus was on the cross you state that Jesus could not forgive your sins.

Correct. I wasn’t alive when he was on the cross so I can’t have been posting.

And so your sins can not be forgiven because you where not sinning during the time Jesus was on the cross.

There’s no evidence that Jesus was thinking of my current activities when he was on the cross. I’m not narcissistic.

There is also no evidence to prove Jesus was not thinking of your current activities when He was on the cross.

No, that was my observation of your attacking my character when you had no answer. I said that wasa as hominem, not narcissistic.

If you examine the sentence structure you were defining narcissistic behaviour.

I have no idea about others, but you accused me.

I just responded to what you wrote. If I accused you it is because of what you wrote.

No, it’s nothing like it. It assumes God Almighty looked atJesus and thought of the one singing.

And you are saying that God does not care about persons in the modern era.
Only cares about the sinners that lived during Christs time on the cross.

That’s better. You improved it.

I actually just rephrased it. The core of the song is still untouched.

It isn’t. Your statement is humble. The other claims God looked at Jesus’ suffering and thought of the person singing.

And yes... Jesus did think of the person singing.
If this is not the case then you are saying that Jesus did not carry the sins of those who were born after 30AD.
Are you not following your logic to the end?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And you think that Jesus did not care about the individual when upon the cross?

He did not talk about anyone in particular besides his mother. I go by evidence not wishful thinking. I know it strokes the ego to think he was thinking about us, but if we love him, that will not be where our thoughts go.

More than that. Maybe read the story where the word comes from.

I know the story well. You are having trouble recognizing narcisstic tendencies.

Indicate is not a more gentle version of the word know.
Very poor use of the language.

You did not go to college did you? I say that because you do not seem to understand the varieties of expression in English.

So if you were not sinning while Jesus was on the cross you state that Jesus could not forgive your sins.

I was not alive. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

And so your sins can not be forgiven because you where not sinning during the time Jesus was on the cross.

Huh? Where is this coming from?

There is also no evidence to prove Jesus was not thinking of your current activities when He was on the cross.

If you examine the sentence structure you were defining narcissistic behaviour.

I just responded to what you wrote. If I accused you it is because of what you wrote.

And you are saying that God does not care about persons in the modern era.
Only cares about the sinners that lived during Christs time on the cross.

I actually just rephrased it. The core of the song is still untouched.


And yes... Jesus did think of the person singing.
If this is not the case then you are saying that Jesus did not carry the sins of those who were born after 30AD.
Are you not following your logic to the end?

You have been taught a theology you like and I think we had best leave it at that. I know that theology. It is very common. Let's move on.

 

[Paul Timothy]

He did not talk about anyone in particular besides his mother. I go by evidence not wishful thinking. I know it strokes the ego to think he was thinking about us, but if we love him, that will not be where our thoughts go.

Why not?
If you love someone do your think the person you love might love you back?
Why in the world would you think that a loving God would not be thinking of you during His greatest sacrifice?

Also you got the details all wrong about who Jesus referenced while on the cross.
Forgive them for they know not what they do... was not directed to His mother.
I thirst... was not directed to His mother.
You asked me to challenge you when you say you know the Bible... and here is a point where you failed that test.

I know the story well. You are having trouble recognizing narcisstic tendencies.

Tendencies are different than narcissism.
You keep changing your definitions every time you are challenged.

You did not go to college did you? I say that because you do not seem to understand the varieties of expression in English.

Yes I went to college and had 3 family members that were teachers. Drilled English into my little brain since I could toddle.

I was not alive. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

So God did not see you because you were not alive?
You have a small view of God.

Huh? Where is this coming from?

The logical working out of your idea that God could not see you from the cross.

You have been taught a theology you like and I think we had best leave it at that. I know that theology. It is very common. Let's move on.

What theology?
I am using your statements... following them to their end point and expressing the results of that process.
So what is the theology you think I was taught?
I often will argue things that I do not believe personally to test the ideas of others.
Often I will vehemently defend a position I do not hold to see the conviction of the person on the other side.
So, please, tell me what I believe.
And you say I pass judgement on you without asking questions.