The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

[williamt]

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is:

1) election/predestination (in Christ),
2) Atonement
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration,
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification, and
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

The Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power.

What does Soli Deo Gloria mean to you? Just curious, Deborah?

God bless,
William

 

[Deborah13]

The Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power.

I have studied the Calvinist doctrine and read much of John Calvin's own writings.
If you believe, that Arminians believe what you have stated, you have not studied their doctrine.

 

[williamt]

Reformed Theology leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part.

Soli Deo Gloria,

God bless,
William

 

[Malachi]

What you have basically described here is a bilateral, conditional covenant. Blessing and curse based on performance.

Definitely not a bilateral conditional covenant. There are neither blessings nor cursings pronounced in Eden. The blessing was inherent in the fact that (a) God gave Adam authority over all creatures unconditionally (b) God fellowshipped with Adam unconditionally and (b) God gave Adam the gift of Eden unconditionally.

All he had to do was take good care of this gift and obey God's one single commandment (which was essentially a test). That was not "performance" but loving obedience which actually benefited him more than God.

 

[Brother Mike]

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is:

1) election/predestination (in Christ),
2) Atonement
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration,
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification, and
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

The Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power.

What does Soli Deo Gloria mean to you? Just curious, Deborah?

God bless,
William

Why is this even brought up?

Arminians believe in something Calvinist do not. It's called foreknowledge of all things. Election V.S Foreknowledge. What Arminians don't want to admit is that having perfect knowledge of a man from start to end before the foundation of the world, and putting that man in a environment, with the people he meets, learns from, is influenced from, knowing how that will effect the mans choices.

God puts the spirit in man.
Zec_12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Is no longer foreknowledge, but Election. No matter how fancy they want to word it.

All the glory to God, is a true statement. If God get's all the glory for all things, then that would include who the devil horribly maimed and killed.

Mike

 

[Malachi]

Reformed Theology leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part.

Neither does any other sound biblical theology. The fact of the matter is that Reformed Theology distorts Bible Truth from the get go.

Salvation is purely by God's grace through faith in the Person and Finished Work of Christ (Tit 3:4-7). But it is not TULIP.

 

[williamt]

Why is this even brought up?

Arminians believe in something Calvinist do not. It's called foreknowledge of all things. Election V.S Foreknowledge. What Arminians don't want to admit is that having perfect knowledge of a man from start to end before the foundation of the world, and putting that man in a environment, with the people he meets, learns from, is influenced from, knowing how that will effect the mans choices.

God puts the spirit in man.
Zec_12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Is no longer foreknowledge, but Election. No matter how fancy they want to word it.

All the glory to God, is a true statement. If God get's all the glory for all things, then that would include who the devil horribly maimed and killed.

Mike

I acknowledge that sometimes people want to defend God and speak of what is not actually in the Scriptures. And likewise, I will acknowledge that you made a conditional statement towards the Glory of God.

Please consider reading: The meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29

God bless,
William

 

[williamt]

Neither does any other sound biblical theology. The fact of the matter is that Reformed Theology distorts Bible Truth from the get go.

Salvation is purely by God's grace through faith in the Person and Finished Work of Christ (Tit 3:4-7). But it is not TULIP.

Well now, you have certainly made your case.

God bless,
William

 

[Malachi]

All the glory to God, is a true statement

Amen. But while Scripture speaks about "the glory of His grace" (Eph 1:6) Reformed Theology focuses on "the glory of His sovereignty", which is never mentioned in Ephesians. Because God's sovereignty was distorted, the doctrines of salvation were also distorted. Yet ironically they are called "the Doctrines of Grace" by the same people.

 

[Deborah13]

Reformed Theology leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part.

Soli Deo Gloria,

God bless,
William

There isn't in Armenian either, not that I have seen. Even the faith that man believes with, is a gift from God, given by His grace.

 

[williamt]

There isn't in Armenian either, not that I have seen. Even the faith that man believes with, His a gift from God, given by is grace.

What do the Armenians have to do with this?

God bless,
William

 

[Brother Mike]

I acknowledge that sometimes people want to defend God and speak of what is not actually in the Scriptures. And likewise, I will acknowledge that you made a conditional statement towards the Glory of God.

Please consider reading: The meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29

God bless,
William

While your article seems thought out, for who God foreknew, He foreordained.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We are talking about "Saved" folks here. Set in the body as God wills. We are not talking about those not saved. God has a predestined plan, for everyone in the body, being a member.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Who was the firstborn of many? Who is Paul speaking about?
Rom_5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The man Jesus Christ, the first born was to be conformed into the image of His Son.

Was not Jesus the Son of God when He was born? No doubt, but He increased in the favor of God, and did all He heard His father say do.

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Those that are born after are predestined to God's plan and purpose.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:15-17)

Name one thing, one person, one rock, one devil that was not predestined to give preeminence to the Lord Jesus. Just one.

Name one thing, that was not designed to be under His rule, and have life through him. One thing.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

The Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power.

Reformed Theology leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part.[/QUOTE]

 

[OzSpen]

Ezekiel 36:25-27 -
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Throughout the OT and NT the same axiom exists, "Regeneration precedes faith.

Faith is a fruit of Regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Soli Deo Gloria!

God bless,
William

williamt,

I beg to differ and here's a starter for my reasons:

This is what happened while Paul and Silas were in prison at Philippi and the jailer asked,“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:30-31 ESV).

Was this a true or false statement? Is it possible for reprobate sinners to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved?

Yes, and this is the evidence provided byNorman Geisler, who calls himself, a moderate Calvinist (1999:129). He stated that "Contrary to the claims of extreme Calvinists, there are no verses properly understood that teach regeneration is prior to faith. Instead, it is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it (Geisler 1999:228).

To support his position, Geisler examines Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (Geisler 1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration.

Works consulted
Geisler, N 1999. Chosen but free. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers.

 

[OzSpen]

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is:

1) election/predestination (in Christ),
2) Atonement
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration,
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification, and
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

The Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power.

What does Soli Deo Gloria mean to you? Just curious, Deborah?

God bless,
William

I think you should state, 'the Calvinistic Reformed camp'. I'm in the Reformed camp but am not Calvinistic Reformed in my theology. You should be more careful to differentiate your position as that of a Calvinistic Reformed theology.

Oz

 

[ezrider]

williamt,

I beg to differ and here's a starter for my reasons:

This is what happened while Paul and Silas were in prison at Philippi and the jailer asked,“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:30-31 ESV).

Was this a true or false statement? Is it possible for reprobate sinners to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved?

Yes, and this is the evidence provided byNorman Geisler, who calls himself, a moderate Calvinist (1999:129). He stated that "Contrary to the claims of extreme Calvinists, there are no verses properly understood that teach regeneration is prior to faith. Instead, it is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it (Geisler 1999:228).

To support his position, Geisler examines Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (Geisler 1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration.

Works consulted
Geisler, N 1999. Chosen but free. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers.

I am not going to get involved in the ongoing debate of this thread, but I would point out the there are two types of faith. There is one faith that belongs to man and is the collection of his beliefs. There is another type of Faith that is a gift of God.

The jailer in the story from the book of Acts demonstrated that initial faith just by asking the question: What must I do?

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

.

 

[OzSpen]

I am not going to get involved in the ongoing debate of this thread, but I would point out the there are two types of faith. There is one faith that belongs to man and is the collection of his beliefs. There is another type of Faith that is a gift of God.

The jailer in the story from the book of Acts demonstrated that initial faith just by asking the question: What must I do?

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

.

However, by making these kinds of statements, you are becoming involved in the ongoing debate of this thread. Your view of 2 kinds of faith is your opinion.

I do wish you would not use Eph 2:8 (ESV) as evidence that faith is a gift of God because that is not what the text states.

One of the greatest NT Greek scholars of the 20th century, Dr. A. T. Robertson, noted this of Eph. 2:8,

'“Grace” is God’s part, “faith” is ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine taute, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part' (Robertson 1931:525, emphasis in original)​

If Paul wanted “that/this” to refer to grace or faith, there was a regular Greek way of doing it. He would have used the same gender for “this/that” as for “faith” or “grace”. Paul would have written taute and not tauto for the demonstrative in this Scripture. But he did not use this grammar. Instead, by using the neuter, tauto, Paul refers to the whole process of salvation by grace through faith.

Even the Calvinist, F. F. Bruce, stated of Eph. 2:8 (ESV),

'But the fact that the demonstrative pronoun ‘that’ is neuter in Greek (tauto), whereas ‘faith’ is a feminine noun (pistis), combines with other considerations to suggest that it is the whole concept of salvation by grace through faith that is described as the gift of God' (Bruce 1961:51).​

So Ephesians 2:8 (ESV), based on the Greek grammar, does not teach that faith is an irresistible gift straight from God that a person has no say about and cannot reject. This verse says that salvation is of God (and affirmed by Eph. 2:9 ESV). But 2:8 does not demonstrate that salvation is a deterministic born again (regeneration) experience that is imposed on a person without his/her consent.

Oz

Works consulted
F F Bruce 1961. The Epistle to the Ephesians. Old Tappan, New Jersey: Fleming H. Revell Company.
A T Robertson 1931. Word Pictures in the New Testament: The Epistles of Paul, Vol IV. Nashville, Tennessee: Boardman Press.

 

[ezrider]

I am not going to get involved in the ongoing debate of this thread, but I would point out the there are two types of faith. There is one faith that belongs to man and is the collection of his beliefs. There is another type of Faith that is a gift of God.

The jailer in the story from the book of Acts demonstrated that initial faith just by asking the question: What must I do?

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

.

Philippians 3:7-10
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 

[childeye]

We're in agreement. Now that you've brought up the flesh vs spirit point - we might as well discuss it. While we do know the works of the flesh and the consequences of them - what is the flesh exactly? Is it part of our Self, our "I" ? If so, what is its scope of operation in us - what exactly does it do for us to bring forth Gal 5:19-21?

Is it part of our Self, our "I" ?
This question involves some semantics. Flesh is the corporeal part of a person. It doesn't necessarily represent the self to the spiritually enlightened mind, but rather the enlightened self experiences a carnal and temporary state of being in this present world. Hence the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Mark 14:38. To the unenlightened mind however, I would venture to say that the flesh is the only available understanding of self. Without hope in eternal things, the will would live for the moment and trying to get all it can get before dying, while also surmising others will be doing the same. Romans 8:5.

what is its scope of operation in us?
Through the carnal senses, we definitely all feel pain and pleasure, hot and cold, hunger and fullness, health and disease, youth and old age, pride and shame. Flesh therefore can only be a self serving impetus based on the limited purview of the carnal senses. Fundamentally speaking, the body and mind are hardwired to try to avoid anything we deem to be unpleasant. However, most of what we would deem as pleasure or pain through the carnal mind, is more the product of imaginary hopes and fears.

what exactly does it do for us to bring forth Gal 5:19-21?
As far as I know, there are two ways this becomes a moral issue.1) Through the process of trying to avoid what is unpleasant to our carnal senses, or when trying to attain pleasure for ourselves through the carnal senses, we then cause others to experience an unpleasant existence in their flesh as a direct result of our self serving actions.

2) I mentioned imaginary hopes and fears. There is a spiritual enemy to God which manifests it's self in pride, envy, rebelliousness, backbiting, wickedness, sedition, gossip, greed, deceit. These dark spirits live through the enticing of the flesh in an egotistical competition with others. However these emotions are therefore not actually typical carnal senses of pain and pleasure, but rather are based upon a false imagery of god created by a corruptible carnal mind. An example of this is when men seek power over others so as to self glory. The desire to be the winner sounds good, but is also the same as the desire to see all others lose. Gaining a better feeling about one's self through knowing others are suffering more than you is a common effect. And also conversely, having envy and low self esteem, because others are more prosperous and suffer less than yourself. Hence this is a lust that cannot ever be satisfied in any station less than God Himself.

Both of these ultimately end up in hypocrisy, doing unto others what you would not want done to you. I also note that Jesus was tempted by Satan through both the pleasure of satisfying his hunger with bread, and with the promise of power. Luke 4:3-5.

 

[ezrider]

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

.

Habakkuk 2:2-4
And the Lord answered me, and said,
Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables,
that he may run that readeth it.
For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
though it tarry, wait for it;
because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
but the just shall live by his faith.

Thus as it is written, from faith, TO FAITH. The Righteousness of God and the Glory of God that fills the temple is revealed from our faith TO HIS FAITH.

Your faith require one action, and that is to leave behind the works and commandments and knowledge of the Law and to fully trust in Christ and Christ alone, so that by the gift of his faith you might grow in the knowledge of the Lord through the gift of the Spirit who dwells within you, that the Glory of God might be revealed in you.