The Sufferings Of Christ

[Dorothy Mae]

I will use Esau for an example as God did not hate Esau, but sore displeased with him in his deception of selling his birthright, Genesis 25. God said He also created evil and this is what fell upon Esau as we read in Malachi 1:2-5.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God as Pharaoh hardened his heart against God like so many even today harden their hearts against God.

Well said. I agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point was how our Savior faced all those things and so do his followers because he lives in them.
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief...and he shall divide the spoil with the strong Isa.53:3,12

One poster asked how being a scientist affects my looking at scripture. Here’s an example. What sorrows or sufferings do you face as a follower of Christ who lives in you? Let’s apply the premise to real life.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is your point? That Muslims think they can do as much violence as they want in God's name? Because that's false, and I addressed it.

You need to correctly represent what I said, not draw a caricature of it and expect a serious answer.

 

[T. E. Smith]

You need to correctly represent what I said, not draw a caricature of it and expect a serious answer.

then explain what you mean, please. By the way, if Muslims should imitate Muhammad, maybe we should imitate Joshua and "utterly destroy all that breathed."

 

[for_his_glory]

My point was how our Savior faced all those things and so do his followers because he lives in them.
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief...and he shall divide the spoil with the strong Isa.53:3,12

Just as Jesus who knew no sin and very much despised and tormented physically, we look at the example He gave when He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

In other words, Father grant them mercy and grace to be able to humble themselves before you and repent of their sins.
Unfortunately, many walk in their own will giving no heed to truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

then explain what you mean, please. By the way, if Muslims should imitate Muhammad, maybe we should imitate Joshua and "utterly destroy all that breathed."

We should imitate Jesus, surly you know this from your parents. If Muslims imitate Mohammed, it’s very bad for their neighbors. If the christians imitate Jesus, it’s great for their neighbors. You can’t just decide to pick people we are to imitate because it suits your agenda. To understand a faith, look at the real deeds of the founder.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Just as Jesus who knew no sin and very much despised and tormented physically, we look at the example He gave when He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

In other words, Father grant them mercy and grace to be able to humble themselves before you and repent of their sins.
Unfortunately, many walk in their own will giving no heed to truth.

This is an example of adding to the Bible to suit your own theory. Jesus didn’t say that. He said, “forgive them….” You are embellishing it. From his words elsewhere we don’t get the idea that God is responsible for us repenting, that is, our freely chosen response

 

[for_his_glory]

A lot of times people take what the scripture plainly says and add to it. They say it’s in the scripture but it isn’t. If they would like like a scientist and test their addition, they could arrive at an understanding of the truth. But often they just blindly accept their addition. I test those additions.

Until then the Bible itself describes the ease and success of the wicked in some cases. The says this so it must be so, right?

Correct. There’s no argument there. But many are not yet dead. Until that point many options are open.

Many add to and take away from the word of God as they neglect God's warning in Rev 22:18-19.

As a child of God we do not test what others say by science and theories, but by the very Spirit of God as only the Holy Spirit teaches us what is truth from error, 1 John 1-6, as we Spiritually discern what others are teaching.

BTW, I really wish you would show us the scriptures you seem to quote from as it would help to look them up. Where in scripture does it describe the ease and success of the wicked ones?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

One poster asked how being a scientist affects my looking at scripture. Here’s an example. What sorrows or sufferings do you face as a follower of Christ who lives in you? Let’s apply the premise to real life.

People separating me from their company is one example. Another would be getting beat up for my faith in Jesus.
Have you faced any criticism from unbelievers for your faith in Jesus?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

People separating me from their company is one example. Another would be getting beat up for my faith in Jesus.

You got beat up?

Have you faced any criticism from unbelievers for your faith in Jesus?

No but I don’t claim it’s common.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Where in scripture does it describe the ease and success of the wicked ones?

It's here,For I was envious at the foolish
Psa.73:3-16
But read the whole passage, as in vs.17 and onward, he explains why they're foolish.
But also, a wrong perception of "success" as,
the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot rest Isa.57:20

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You got beat up?

Yes. I was speaking to someone about Christ and someone else didn't like what I was saying and began punching me. A third party intervened and stopped it. This happened some years ago.

No but I don’t claim it’s common.

Certain people will hate us for following him.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Yes. I was speaking to someone about Christ and someone else didn't like what I was saying and began punching me.

I used to give out copies of Richard Dawkins' Outgrowing God. An old man saw me doing so (I wasn't handing one out to him), asked what I was doing, I showed him, and he hit me three times across the head with a cane. I still bear a light scar just right below my hairline.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, I’m looking at Mohammed. The best muslim citizens in western nations are the least like Mohammed and the best Christian citizens are the most like Jesus.

I do apologize as I thought you were charactering all Muslims.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I do apologize as I thought you were charactering all Muslims.

Well, initially, she said Muslims. She did not say Muhammad. The responsibility of miscommunication is on her.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Many add to and take away from the word of God as they neglect God's warning in Rev 22:18-19.

They do. It’s very common.

As a child of God we do not test what others say by science and theories, but by the very Spirit of God as only the Holy Spirit teaches us what is truth from error, 1 John 1-6, as we Spiritually discern what others are teaching.

If this is how it works how come so many disagree?

And you are not understanding what I’m saying. Ok, let’s give you a biblical example. God tests people and He uses the scientific method.

Genesis 22. God tested Abraham. Surly everyone knows the account. Abraham was told to sacrifice his son and just before doing so, God stopped him. Now what God says is interesting.

“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.” After the testing or experiment, God knew what He was looking to know. He did not say the Spirit showed him what he needed to know. This is the scientific method.

Now I don’t test people although I watch them when tests come up naturally. But mostly I test theories based on what the Bible already says. One poster said God says XYZ so I looked at descriptions of God really responded to those situations. I tested the theory. It failed because God never said XYZ to anyone.

We are to love God with our minds. This is part of that.

BTW, I really wish you would show us the scriptures you seem to quote from as it would help to look them up. Where in scripture does it describe the ease and success of the wicked ones?

Fair enough.
Job 21:7-13
Jeremiah 12:1
Psalm 94:3

But surly one can look at wicked men living today in peace and wealth. Their end is not yet seen.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I do apologize as I thought you were charactering all Muslims.

It wasn’t the actions of people, it was the philosophy. That is not charactizing people, groups or individuals.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes. I was speaking to someone about Christ and someone else didn't like what I was saying and began punching me. A third party intervened and stopped it. This happened some years ago.

Certain people will hate us for following him.

I’m impressed!!

 

[for_his_glory]

This is an example of adding to the Bible to suit your own theory. Jesus didn’t say that. He said, “forgive them….” You are embellishing it. From his words elsewhere we don’t get the idea that God is responsible for us repenting, that is, our freely chosen response

I never said God is responsible for us repenting. It's all through His mercy and grace, even though we do not deserve it, has made away through His Son Christ Jesus that we can repent and turn back to Him as we are made righteous by His righteousness and sanctified being made whole again by the blood of Christ sacrifice He made for all who will believe by having faith in Him, John 3:16; Romans 10:5-21.

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

What am I adding to this as Jesus dying for our sins is the greatest example of God's mercy and grace. I would surely think you know what God's grace, mercy and forgiveness is all about. We are all sinners saved by grace to all who will call upon His name.

 

[Niblo]

Well I’d ask a Muslim if all
that happens is Allahs will. Does this include what you do would be the second question.

I think folk have been a little harsh. Your comments are not – in my opinion – an attack on Islam (a caricature’); rather, they are the fruit of an honest misunderstanding.

Maybe this will help:

The Beloved says:

‘Do not say of anything, “I will do that tomorrow,” without adding, “God willing,” and whenever you
forget, remember your Lord and say, “May my Lord guide me closer to what is right.”’ (Al-Kahf: 23-24).

In these verses, we are reminded that we should never make a promise regarding what we intend to do at some future time, without acknowledging that the fulfilment of that promise depends entirely on the Beloved’s Will.

Muslims are called upon to acknowledge His Will in all such matters by adding the conditional clause ‘in šāʾ Allāh’ (‘if God wills’). This clause has its counterpart in the words ‘Deo Volente’ (often abbreviate, by Catholics, to ‘DV’; as in, for example, ‘I’ll see you at Mass this afternoon, DV’).

This practice serves as a constant reminder that nothing happens outside the Beloved’s Will; and is an acknowledgement that the future is very much in His hands.

That nothing can happen without the Beloved’s Will is not, and never has been, a reason to behave as we wish; to do whatever is sinful, whenever we please; free of any person responsibility.

You will have seen – in the movies, or on TV – one person behaving cruelly towards another, and then saying (reproachfully): ‘Look what you made me do!

The correct response to this accusation is ‘No, sunshine, you did that all on your very own; and the responsibility is entirely yours!’

The Beloved is in no way responsible for our actions. They belong to us. That is why I wrote that a Muslim cannot inflict suffering on another with impunity.

And now back to the topic??