The Teachings of Paul

[elijah23]

They were only sharing what the Bible says. That's why you should love the Bible. It has all the answers, and if you read it for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding you wouldn't be giving credit to your human teachers but to God Himself.

I’ve maintained all along that Paul was a great man with much wisdom to impart. I do not believe his teachings are infallible, though.

 

[Sparkey]

It happened. It didn’t mean he was perfect thereafter.

Good thing that God does not require perfection -but instead provided perfection through His Son, in whom we all believe, into whom we are all called, else who could be saved? Still, we are called as you have said, "to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

The question then becomes, "How???"

This question has been one that I too hear in my innermost parts. I get it that God is perfect and holy and beyond my understanding. I don't understand how He can use one like me. Don't understand how He can choose me (of all people) to join me into the ministry and service that only Jesus is rightly fitted to.

But then I stop. Did Jesus pray for us? Has it been the purpose of God from the beginning to use men (un-perfected believers) who trust Him, who hear and trust, who are willing to be taught, to continue with Him??? To join them even in Christ Jesus in truth?

It has, it is. It has indeed. We do not know what we shall be but we shall be like Him.

 

[glorydaz]

Good thing that God does not require perfection -but instead provided perfection through His Son, in whom we all believe, into whom we are all called, else who could be saved? Still, we are called as you have said, "to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

The question then becomes, "How???"

This question has been one that I too hear in my innermost parts. I get it that God is perfect and holy and beyond my understanding. I don't understand how He can use one like me. Don't understand how He can choose me (of all people) to join me into the ministry and service that only Jesus is rightly fitted to.

But then I stop. Did Jesus pray for us? Has it been the purpose of God from the beginning to use men (un-perfected believers) who trust Him, who hear and trust, who are willing to be taught, to continue with Him??? To join them even in Christ Jesus in truth?

It has, it is. It has indeed. We do not know what we shall be but we shall be like Him.

Amen, Sparrowhawke. If I knew how to use these icons, I'd give you a thumbs up.

 

[Alabaster]

It happened. It didn’t mean he was perfect thereafter.

Flimsy, flimsy...

Did Paul say he was perfect? Did Peter? Were any apostles or disciples perfect? Are any believers of any time since Christ perfect?

 

[Alabaster]

I’ve maintained all along that Paul was a great man with much wisdom to impart. I do not believe his teachings are infallible, though.

God has orchestrated it so that Paul's letters are part of holy scripture. Therefore everything included there is INFALLIBLE.

You appear to have much doubt in what God has wrought. It is feas-based. I wonder what you and/or your teachers are fearful of?

 

[Alabaster]

Amen, Sparrowhawke. If I knew how to use these icons, I'd give you a thumbs up.

Let me!

Good post, Sparrowhawke!

Here's two thumbs up!

 

[Elijah674]

Some Christians believe the teachings of Paul are infallible. Did anyone believe this during his lifetime? If not, when did they start believing it? Why did some Christians start believing Paul’s teachings were infallible?

Are you not casting doubt on several 'Inspired' books of the Bible?? What do you think that you are accomplishing??

---Elijah [[[674]]]

 

[elijah23]

God has orchestrated it so that Paul's letters are part of holy scripture. Therefore everything included there is INFALLIBLE.

I don’t see the logic.

 

[elijah23]

You appear to have much doubt in what God has wrought. It is feas-based. I wonder what you and/or your teachers are fearful of?

I have no doubt at all. Repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[elijah23]

Are you not casting doubt on several 'Inspired' books of the Bible?? What do you think that you are accomplishing??

---Elijah [[[674]]]

It is always my wish to uncover truth.

 

[Sparkey]

Elijah23,

In the past you've stated that the "teachings of Jesus" were infallible. You've gone further than that and have said the the four men who wrote in the gospels about the teachings of Jesus wrote in an infallible manner (correct me if I am wrong).

Please elaborate. Compare and contrast the action of the Holy Spirit through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - with the action of the Holy Spirit through non-gospel writers, including but not limited to Paul.

~Sparrow

 

[elijah23]

Elijah23,

In the past you've stated that the "teachings of Jesus" were infallible. You've gone further than that and have said the the four men who wrote in the gospels about the teachings of Jesus wrote in an infallible manner (correct me if I am wrong).

Not so long ago I would make the statement that everything in the four Gospels was infallible. It hadn’t occurred to me that writers of those Gospels made statements of their own, independent of what Jesus was quoted as saying. Since making this discovery, I no longer maintain everything in the four Gospels is infallible. I maintain everything Jesus taught during his ministry on earth is infallible.

 

[Sparkey]

Not so long ago I would make the statement that everything in the four Gospels was infallible. It hadn’t occurred to me that writers of those Gospels made statements of their own, independent of what Jesus was quoted as saying. Since making this discovery, I no longer maintain everything in the four Gospels is infallible. I maintain everything Jesus taught during his ministry on earth is infallible.

Thanks for the answer, yes -that's about what I gathered from reading your various posts. I wonder how you can believe that you even know what Jesus taught. Are you saying that only the statements in the gospels that discuss Jesus are infallible? How can that be? The men that were selected by the Holy Spirit were men, true enough but when we start saying that they "made statements of their own" (that were not true) how can we trust them at all?

Thanks for being patient with me here. I am trying to understand your belief that God preserved the truth about Jesus and that He inspired the writings. Other writers of Scripture have described it (writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) with an analogy, that of a log floating on a river. The log has no say in the course it takes.

~Sparrow

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The perception of the times -

"I believe Mr. Carabbio was trying to say that Paul was not a man of God, hence the reason he used quotations."

Of course you're wrong about that. What I said (quotations or otherwise) was in answer to the statement:

I’m not aware of any Christians that dispute Paul was sent by Jesus.

And my post addressed the fact that NOT EVERYBODY of Christendom at the time took him seriously, nor was his "Apostleship" universally accepted in the church of the day.

Naturally, Paul WAS a rather unique "Man of God" - burdened with delivering the Gospel to the Gentile dogs, and and "apostle out of time" as HE put it.

But to MANY, he probably looked like Osama Bin Ladin would look to US, if he suddenly showed up representing himself as a "Christian Evangelist".

 

[elijah23]

Are you saying that only the statements in the gospels that discuss Jesus are infallible?

I am saying that all the teachings of Jesus, which are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are infallible.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: The Teachings of Jesus

Matt. 5:17-20 and John 10:34-35 are two scriptures that are often quoted and known to Christian apologists. They are the teachings of Jesus.

[Matthew 5:17-20, 48 KJV] - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(vs. 48) ... Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away before the smallest detail of the law fails to be fulfilled. The authority of the law (found in the bible) rests on the fact that every minute detail will be fulfilled as declared by Jesus, recorded by Mark, who wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (who is utterly apart from sin and lies).

[John 10:33-38 KJV]The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jesus says that Scripture cannot be broken and so is absolutely binding. He quoted Psalms 82:6 like it was the final authority on the matter because it was.

~Sparrow

 

[elijah23]

The men that were selected by the Holy Spirit were men, true enough but when we start saying that they "made statements of their own" (that were not true) how can we trust them at all?

The Lord gave us minds to reason things out.

He took the responsibility of coming to earth in the man of Jesus, teaching, and having his teachings written down so we can read them.

I don’t think he intended we should believe the writers themselves should have a complete understanding of his will.

 

[elijah23]

Thanks for being patient with me here. I am trying to understand your belief that God preserved the truth about Jesus and that He inspired the writings. Other writers of Scripture have described it (writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) with an analogy, that of a log floating on a river. The log has no say in the course it takes.

I don’t think the Lord intended for us to view the writings of Paul as infallible. Paul was a great man and there was much to learn from him. I think the Lord intended for us to view his writings exactly as that.

 

[cyberjosh]

My understanding is that “conservative” or “fundamentalist” Christians believe the teachings of Paul are infallible, while other Christians do not.

Why do you think that (that some Christians did not consider Paul infallible or inspired)? What groups of Christians, historically speaking, have ever believed that? Please tell me and I will be sure to research this more. I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[elijah23]

Re: The Teachings of Jesus

Jesus says that Scripture cannot be broken and so is absolutely binding. He quoted Psalms 82:6 like it was the final authority on the matter because it was.

~Sparrow

Jesus is quoting this Scripture:

[6] I say, "You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
[7] nevertheless, you shall die like men,
and fall like any prince." Psalms 82:8 RSV

These are the words of our Father in heaven. This is Scripture—it cannot be denied that our Father made this statement.

But you and I are not talking about the words of the Father, I do not believe. We are talking about the words of Paul. You claim that Paul is speaking on behalf of the Father. I claim he is speaking what he, Paul, believes.