The Teachings of Paul

[Sparkey]

Re: The Teachings of elijah23

"My sheep know my voice and will not listen to another.
You have no need that any man teach you. I shall send the Holy Spirit to you who will teach you and guide you in all things."

As I've stated in the past, the things that you state are not wrong. You believe on Jesus and do well to rest on his teachings. I'm not going to enter into arguments about a woman's place in the church and don't have any great conviction one way or another. Let God do what He will is my thought. But when it comes to teaching others that they should doubt, well that's a different matter. WE are believers. Some come to divide the flock and seek to slay the weak. This is not you, I can tell.

From what I gather here you believe that Paul's writings have about as much authority as yours or mine. They are the writings of a follower of Jesus. You believe that he's wrong about some things. You also believe that I am wrong about some things. Can you not believe this for you? The problem comes when we set ourselves above the teachings of the whole bible because then we become a judge of the word. I'm not qualified for that lofty station. Jesus is and he affirmed the authority of all scriptures and by his act taught this. I'm also not your judge, sir. As brothers it is good for us to consider each other in love as you have said. As teachers? That's a different story.

Unto those who teach others falls double judgment so it is imperative for them to teach only the truth. Yours is not the calling of a teacher but as a student of Jesus and so that imperative does not fall heavily on your heart.

Be at peace, my friend.
~Sparrow

 

[elijah23]

Not some: ALL Christians but a very few like yourself believe the entire 66 books of the Bible are God-breathed and infallible.

Lots of churches have women pastors. This contradicts the teachings of Paul, does it not?

 

[Alabaster]

Lots of churches have women pastors. This contradicts the teachings of Paul, does it not?

No. Paul used women as pastors.

 

[elijah23]

A much misinterpreted passage of scripture that Paul wrote under God's inspiration, but has been misinterpeted by whom? Men.

Paul was responding to a letter requesting his leadership in dealing with a problem.

I don’t think it matters who he was talking to. He made the statement women shouldn’t talk in church.

My own feeling is that Paul shouldn’t have said this.

 

[Alabaster]

I don’t think it matters who he was talking to. He made the statement women shouldn’t talk in church.

My own feeling is that Paul shouldn’t have said this.

No, people shouldn't misinterpret. Paul isn't your problem...refocus on what is.

 

[Sparkey]

I don’t think it matters who he was talking to. He made the statement women shouldn’t talk in church.

My own feeling is that Paul shouldn’t have said this.

To say that Paul should not have said it because other men twist his meaning? Paul was given the responsibility of establishing the Gentiles in early Christianity. Along with that responsibility came authority to settle things and he said that all things should be done in order. If any group came into your church and disrupted services, would you tolerate it? I think no. If you did and the purpose of joining together to worship God and fellowship with one another was prevented would you be serving God?

Kindly consider that Paul was a church builder and was chosen specifically for this purpose. Do you really think that he intended to say that no woman should ever be allowed to speak a single word in church? Is that what the Holy Spirit commands? Consider what Paul actually taught (not just what some who are unlearned say he said).

~Sparrow

 

[elijah23]

We are to obey God. Receive His whole word.

I think the whole Word is the teachings of Jesus as found in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. In other words, the Word is the words Jesus spoke when he came to earth and preached.

 

[Alabaster]

I think the whole Word is the teachings of Jesus as found in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. In other words, the Word is the words Jesus spoke when he came to earth and preached.

FALSE.

I suppose you refute the Old Testament scriptures as part of the word of God also? Jesus is in every page.

I am glad you said, "I think," as it leaves room for correction, and you will eventally say, "I know."

 

[elijah23]

Kindly consider that Paul was a church builder and was chosen specifically for this purpose.

Paul likely was the greatest of church builders. That doesn’t mean he never misspoke.

 

[elijah23]

To say that Paul should not have said it because other men twist his meaning?

Doesn’t Paul very clearly say women aren’t supposed to speak in church?

 

[Alabaster]

Paul likely was the greatest of church builders. That doesn’t mean he never misspoke.

As we all do, but it never made its way into scripture, my dear.

 

[Alabaster]

Doesn’t Paul very clearly say women aren’t supposed to speak in church?

That is part of the misinterpretation---taken out of context, as usual.

 

[elijah23]

FALSE.

I suppose you refute the Old Testament scriptures as part of the word of God also? Jesus is in every page.

I am glad you said, "I think," as it leaves room for correction, and you will eventally say, "I know."

I do not spend my time judging the Bible. I just think Paul misspoke at least once and I know the teachings of Jesus are infallible.

 

[Alabaster]

I do not spend my time judging the Bible. I just think Paul misspoke at least once and I know the teachings of Jesus are infallible.

Everytime you open your Bible and consistently ignore Genesis to Malachi, Acts to Revelation, you are judging erroneously. It is an affront to Jesus Christ, who has painstakingly provided the whole word for you to know Him fully and intimately, and to live your life with POWER that comes from the Holy Spirit.

Denying all but the gospels denies Holy Spirit also.

 

[handy]

Re: The Teachings of the Apostles

I believe the Lord wants me to uncover truth.

It is always my wish to uncover truth.

Elijah, I've been away for awhile, and must admit that today is kind of a rough day...but I did in fact read this entire thread from the beginning.

I quoted your posts here, and I'm glad that you believe that the Lord wants you to uncover truth. I know that you've said as much on other threads as well.

I'll be frank, there are times when you don't seem as if you wish to uncover truth, but rather you seem quite stuck in your beliefs and refuse to budge on your opinion no matter what, but I'm thinking that perhaps you are not...that you truly do wish to uncover truth.

I would like to discuss this issue, because Scriptural infallibility is an area of discussion that I feel strongly about...but

...in 112 posts, you, in spite of the fact that you wish to uncover truth, are still sticking with the idea that pretty much the entire Bible is prone to error, except the "red letters" (only those things which Jesus spoke) and then there is also the less important, but just as fallacious idea that "most Christians" don't believe that the Bible is infallible. You seem to be sticking with these points, in spite of the many scriptures that have been shown to you which should help you at least pause and reconsider the infallibility of the Scriptures and also the fact that most Christian do in fact hold to the infallibility of the Scriptures, just that many in the more liberal "main-line" denominations (of which the UM is one) who do not. However, I know that there are also many in even the liberal "main-line" churches who still hold to the infallibility of the Scriptures, and keep in mind that teaching that the Bible is not wholly inerrant is a relatively new phenomenon within the Church. Historically, the Church has held to the infallibility of the Scriptures, although Bob is quite correct that there have always been some detractors to this.

My hope for you Elijah, is that you are speaking the full truth in the above statements, that you indeed are interested in uncovering truth. Because if you are, then afters years of faulty teaching, you will find that there is a whole wealth of Scriptures that will open truth up to you in a way that has never been open to you before. You can spend the next 57 years pouring over the vast amount of truth that perhaps you've missed, due to the fact that the letters weren't "red".


As for Paul's infallibility: perhaps this perspective will be helpful for you. I believe that Paul was a very fallible man, just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us. HOWEVER, when it comes to those epistles that he wrote that made their way into the canon of Scripture, we can trust those to be just as infallible as the gospels and the gospels are wholly infallible, not just the "red" words. Paul wrote many epistles to different churches that were not included in the canon of Scripture. Those letters of his that did make it though, made it because the Holy Spirit guided and protected His word so that the Church would be equipped with those words that He, the Holy Spirit, inspired fallible men to write. You are right not to trust fallible men...but, you are in error to not trust our wholly infallible, most holy and divine Holy Spirit, Who is more than capable of seeing to it that not just Jesus' words were kept intact, but ALL the words He inspired to be written down.

 

[elijah23]

As we all do, but it never made its way into scripture, my dear.

I think two of Paul’s misstatements made it into the Bible. I think it was wrong for him to say women shouldn’t speak in church, and I think it was wrong for him to say that all the law was based on commandment, that we should love our neighbors as ourselves, when Jesus said the law was based on two commandments, that we should love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and love our neighbors as ourselves, my dear.

 

[elijah23]

That is part of the misinterpretation---taken out of context, as usual.

I don’t think so.

 

[elijah23]

Everytime you open your Bible and consistently ignore Genesis to Malachi, Acts to Revelation, you are judging erroneously. It is an affront to Jesus Christ, who has painstakingly provided the whole word for you to know Him fully and intimately, and to live your life with POWER that comes from the Holy Spirit.

Denying all but the gospels denies Holy Spirit also.

I believe his Word is what he taught us during the years he walked the earth.

 

[elijah23]

Re: The Teachings of the Apostles

Elijah, I've been away for awhile, and must admit that today is kind of a rough day...but I did in fact read this entire thread from the beginning.

You must read fast.

 

[elijah23]

Re: The Teachings of the Apostles

I quoted your posts here, and I'm glad that you believe that the Lord wants you to uncover truth. I know that you've said as much on other threads as well.

I'll be frank, there are times when you don't seem as if you wish to uncover truth, but rather you seem quite stuck in your beliefs and refuse to budge on your opinion no matter what, but I'm thinking that perhaps you are not...that you truly do wish to uncover truth.

I have learned a valuable lesson in life that I think would help people, and that is the tremendous peace that descends on us when we repent of our sin. The problem is, the Christian community rebels against this message.

I am not the first to say it:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV