The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[Free]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Hermeneutics has taken into account who was being spoken about, the time, the custom, and ripped faith completely from the equation.

Completely and utterly false.

No scripture of Passage is to be taken by itself to be understood. Everything must match something else.

You've just used a hermeneutic in attempting to show how hermeneutics are bad. You no long have any argument against hermeneutics.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-hermeneutics.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics

Only the Holy Spirit can teach, bringing to us comparisons to compare. Like things with like things. Man can not teach it, and Hermeneutics is a man made object.

Hermeneutics are absolutely necessary for any serious student of Scripture. I have said this many times on these forums: every person on these forums who has said "only the Holy Spirit can teach" and we need to ignore "man's opinion," has disagreed with the rest of them on what a given verse or passage means. So if all who believe all we need is to be "led by the Spirit," and each thinks they are being "led by the Spirit," why do they rarely agree on any given passage?

Simply because that is not a biblical position.

 

[JohnD]

I have found that these kinds of topics do not engage a bigger topic... the make up of the human being. We ask about soul sleep, or does the individual cease to exist... or are we conscious and aware the moment after we die?

Yes .
Yes.
Yes.

Huh?

In death the spirit departs the body. The soul which is a buffer between the two realities (having traits of both) ceases to exist... the spirit of the believer goes to be with Jesus in heaven. The spirit of the unbeliever to the grave / sheol / hades.
The body ceases to function and returns to dust.

soma - body
pseuke - soul
phenuma - spirit

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Completely and utterly false.

edited

Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mike View Post
Hermeneutics has taken into account who was being spoken about, the time, the custom, and ripped faith completely from the equation.
Completely and utterly false.

Interpreting historically

- Historical interpretation means that we take into account the historical background of the author and the recipients as possible. The Bible was written to common people, and is understandable to anyone. However, it was written thousands of years ago to a different culture. Therefore, as modern readers, we have to try to recover a general sense of the meaning of words, phrases and concepts in the ancient cultures. These phrases are addressed in Scripture primarily to the Hebrew and Greco-Roman culture of the first century.

- See more at: http://www.xenos.org/essays/herme.htm#sthash.J7h0HeE4.dpuf

http://www.xenos.org/essays/herme.htm

EDITED

Hermeneutics are absolutely necessary for any serious student of Scripture.

And no Free...................... It's absolutely necessary to hear the Holy Spirit and study like God told you to study. Your trust in man is very troubling.

Amazing.....

Mike.

 

[Free]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Hermeneutics are absolutely necessary for any serious student of Scripture.

And no Free...................... It's absolutely necessary to hear the Holy Spirit and study like God told you to study. Your trust in man is very troubling.

Amazing.....

I never said that it wasn't necessary to hear the Holy Spirit. Your position simply is not in line with what the Bible teaches.

 

[Brother Mike]

I never said that it wasn't necessary to hear the Holy Spirit. Your position simply is not in line with what the Bible teaches.

Free, I gave the scriptures and passages on How The Word is revealed to us. What more do you want me to do? If you see value in knowing Hermeneutics then fine, but don't slam me when I just posted scriptures or made a reference to them. I won't go through all the trouble of posted all of them. If you believe we need the Holy Spirit to help, then that is joyful to me. If you want to use hermeneutics then use it, in whatever form it is (There are several)

soma - body
pseuke - soul
phenuma - spirit

That is one groovy picture you put up Brother................ I like that.


Mike.

 

[Free]

I never said that it wasn't necessary to hear the Holy Spirit. Your position simply is not in line with what the Bible teaches.

Free, I gave the scriptures and passages on How The Word is revealed to us. What more do you want me to do? If you see value in knowing Hermeneutics then fine, but don't slam me when I just posted scriptures or made a reference to them. I won't go through all the trouble of posted all of them. If you believe we need the Holy Spirit to help, then that is joyful to me. If you want to use hermeneutics then use it, in whatever form it is (There are several)

I "slammed" you for putting down hermeneutics and speaking about them falsely. That has nothing to do with the Scriptures you posted. :dunno

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Your post (as seen by me) is ivory soap pure. 99.99% pure and I agree with what you've said except that it seems that you give credit to something that does not sit in the throne of God. God alone is enthroned there and that ripping you describe, may indeed be an accurate description of one view, but it is only one view. The view from the throne, if I may be so bold as to say, is not "ripped". There is no shadow of turning there. Who may budge God? Not I, not you and certainly not "Herman". There is no fear. You are worth more than two assertions. I think that we also agree that God is just and those things that men, who have dedicated their lives unto the study of the word, and of those things that are helpful? They should not have fear of approaching our merciful Father for even as He is Merciful he is also Just.

As they (we?) gaze upon the Majesty that is our God; The Question: "When? When did I feed YOU?"
You know the answer. So do I. The Holy Spirit told us (and them) this.

Hermeneutics has taken into account who was being spoken about, the time, the custom, and ripped faith completely from the equation.

You've anthropomorphised something and I was merely speaking about the men, not that thing. Is it an idol to some men? It may be. Still the fact remains that many men have contributed toward the benefits that we, today, enjoy. That's why you can say, "I am grateful myself for Past Teachers." I am too. I'm also grateful that we agree although we may say the sames things differently. There is nothing that says that your thoughts and mine must be matched 100% in all things, what? There should be two of me? Heaven forbid.

This same God is a master fishermen who seeks to catch not only salmon but also perch, and yes, maybe even a dog-fish (a type of shark) or two.

I've said this before, it may bear repeating, n'est-ce pas?

 

[JLB]

I never said that it wasn't necessary to hear the Holy Spirit. Your position simply is not in line with what the Bible teaches.

Free, I gave the scriptures and passages on How The Word is revealed to us. What more do you want me to do? If you see value in knowing Hermeneutics then fine, but don't slam me when I just posted scriptures or made a reference to them. I won't go through all the trouble of posted all of them. If you believe we need the Holy Spirit to help, then that is joyful to me. If you want to use hermeneutics then use it, in whatever form it is (There are several)

I "slammed" you for putting down hermeneutics and speaking about them falsely. That has nothing to do with the Scriptures you posted. :dunno

The scriptures were written as God showed Moses the account of creation, some 2000 years before Moses was born.

The prophets spoke forth as the Spirit of Christ in them gave divine utterance.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-20

The scriptures are the inspired word of God, unless He reveals the meaning to you, all the Hermeneutics in the world are useless.

The Foundation of the New Covenant, is being taught by God personally.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 1:27

This is the Benchmark of the New Covenant, that The Holy Spirit teaches each of us, that we may know God, for The Holy Spirit leads us and guides us into all Truth.

as it is written -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34


An example of this is seen in how Jesus chose His leader from among the twelve. He did this by asking a question, in which everyone present had an oppurtunity to answer.

Several answered with opinions of man.

One answered by divine revelation.

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

The rock or foundation that the Church that Jesus builds is, they hear from God.

God teaches then directly.

As it is written -

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Is it possible that God has lead somebody other than you, me, Free, Brother Mike and other posters here? Somebody who also read, but did not write the Holy Writ?


What about that monk named "Herman" (for wont of a better name)? Could it be that he meticulously copied his thoughts, some of which are profitable to us even today, to a book, Maybe there were others who contributed their thoughts about methods. But let us turn away from this for a second and consider more neutral territory.

Farming. Who learned to farm and from whom? Fishing: Who learned to fish and from whom? Music: Who learned to express themselves in the brass instruments and was inspired to worship God that way, and whose breath was drawing and leading those who learned and then taught others of such things? Why did some of the founding fathers encourage and endorse public school systems at the founding times of our country? Was it not (at least as advanced by some) so that they might learn to read the word of God?

Regarding Farming: [Isa 28:23-24, 26, 29 KJV] 23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech. 24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? ... 26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, [and] doth teach him. ... 29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, [which] is wonderful in counsel, [and] excellent in working.

Music: [Gen 4:20-22 KJV] 20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and [of such as have] cattle. 21 And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain [was] Naamah. Matthew 9:23 - The funeral of or, rather, the mourning for a deceased person was accompanied with the sound of flutes. We may also read of the anointing that can be upon music in I Sam 16:14-23 in the incident concerning the evil spirit that used to come upon Saul and the solution that his servants offered. Isaiah 16:9-10 - Songs were sung over the harvest that was reaped in the vineyards.

Were there songs and instruments found in the Temple of the desert? If so, did they compare to what was seen later in the Temple of Solomon? Has this annointed ministry of the Holy Spirit been heard by you today? Recently? I hope so and I believe that the author of such things remains the same.

Regarding the Founding Fathers of the US, there are too many quotes to bring here. Men such as Benjamin Rush, Fisher Ames, John Adams, Henry Laurens, Joseph Story, John Quincy Adams, Patrick Henry, Daniel Webster, Noah Webster, James McHenry (many of whom were signers of the Constitution, all of whom contributed) have all written and endorsed the Bible and the need for the general public to be educated and enabled toward understanding of this great Word for the sake of the public good.

Regarding fishing: "I will make you fishers of men."

In summary:

…16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

 

[Northman]

Wait a sec wait a sec...am i reading this right? The ability that god gives to discern things in his word("putting two and two together" so to speak) is now or being made out to be or always have been a science and has an actual name? Something men can teach one another?

 

[Sparkey]

I would like to challenge all readers to disassociate themselves from any semblance of in-fighting and struggle in order to cast our eyes toward the One declares, "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me?"

How may we magnify God?

Might we consider the length from our elbow to the tips of our fingers? May we think of this as a period of 1,000 years? So that when we look at that bend in our arm, that would be 1,000 years ago, and our ancestors from 1,000 years ago could be imagined on this, godly arm? Then could we extend our glance along that whole distance and take in all the generations that have past between them and us, way down there at His fingertips?

Might we imagine that God knows, not only each hair on our heads, but each hoary head that has gone before? And if He spoke any promise to any or even every one? Then we also know that God is able, that He is not a man that he could lie, and that each word, whispered by the Holy Spirit to each person in our ancestral line, depicted as a cubit, for illustrative purpose of magnifying God, is true and in our idiom or manner of speaking may be "taken to the bank."

His Word is sure.

What were those whispers? God knows. Bible writers claim to give an inspired revelation of the message from God to man for all future generations. We hear of them magnifying God and praising Him. Could it be that even "magnified" we still do not see?

 

[Sparkey]

Wait a sec wait a sec...am i reading this right? The ability that god gives to discern things in his word("putting two and two together" so to speak) is now or being made out to be or always have been a science and has an actual name? Something men can teach one another?

That is one person's way of taking, understood and winked at by another. It is not actually being advanced except as a silly method of communication of an idea and/or concept which is under discussion. As previously noted, "Hermeneutics" is not a person and calling that method "Herman" is a shortcut and rather silly thing to do, except as it is convenient and understood as yet another anthropomorphism.

The Bible itself advocates study. Peter mentions those (as considered by the Holy Spirit) who are categorized as untaught and unstable ---and tells us that they (nobody here, I'm sure) twist the difficult things that Paul speaks of (like they do all things, that's why I am sure he was not talking about us) unto their own destruction. Peters says that Paul talks that way in all his letters. That is the thought through a fisherman as he considers the thoughts given through a well educated and literate (can we call Paul a lawyer of sorts?) man. Both were delivering God's true message. We are told to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Knowledge puffeth up or so say some and I could agree. Yet, knowledge, like hermeneutics is neutral. It doesn't matter if we listen to what the Holy Spirit says through Peter or if we have a preference given toward words of inspiration from Paul. The source is the same. Both are the Word of God, as I am certain all would agree.

I would extend this thought and say that there are other godly men (men other than those who frequent this particular forum and men other than those who have been used to pen the Word of Truth themselves) who have dedicated their lives unto the study of the Holy Writ and even if they speak only of the methods they used, even those teachings (sometimes about more mundane things like how to understand written communication), although not infallible, may be found efficacious and edifying. That's why I digressed into the farmer, musician, fisherman, founding fathers teachings and that is why I have quoted the Book of James to have said that God is the father of lights.

 

[Northman]

Wait a sec wait a sec...am i reading this right? The ability that god gives to discern things in his word("putting two and two together" so to speak) is now or being made out to be or always have been a science and has an actual name? Something men can teach one another?

That is one person's way of taking, understood and winked at by another. It is not actually being advanced except as a silly method of communication of an idea and/or concept which is under discussion. As previously noted, "Hermeneutics" is not a person and calling that method "Herman" is a shortcut and rather silly thing to do, except as it is convenient and understood as yet another anthropomorphism.

The Bible itself advocates study. Peter mentions those (as considered by the Holy Spirit) who are categorized as untaught and unstable ---and tells us that they (nobody here, I'm sure) twist the difficult things that Paul speaks of (like they do all things, that's why I am sure he was not talking about us) unto their own destruction. Peters says that Paul talks that way in all his letters. That is the thought through a fisherman as he considers the thoughts given through a well educated and literate (can we call Paul a lawyer of sorts?) man. Both were delivering God's true message. We are told to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Knowledge puffeth up or so say some and I could agree. Yet, knowledge, like hermeneutics is neutral. It doesn't matter if we listen to what the Holy Spirit says through Peter or if we have a preference given toward words of inspiration from Paul. The source is the same. Both are the Word of God, as I am certain all would agree.

I would extend this thought and say that there are other godly men (men other than those who frequent this particular forum and men other than those who have been used to pen the Word of Truth themselves) who have dedicated their lives unto the study of the Holy Writ and even if they speak only of the methods they used, even those teachings (sometimes about more mundane things like how to understand written communication), although not infallible, may be found efficacious and edifying. That's why I digressed into the farmer, musician, fisherman, founding fathers teachings and that is why I have quoted the Book of James to have said that God is the father of lights.

Was that a great, big, diplomatic yes?

 

[Sparkey]

Was that a great, big, diplomatic yes?

It was intended to be a great, big, diplomatic and qualified no. A reply that suggests that you may not have read it right. Because that is not what I said. Not what I meant. But then, I can't speak for others. That's the part where the diplomacy enters.

You must know how to google the word, Hermeneutics, right? I've linked a limited and directed search to the word here. Clicking on that link will direct the search to find only sites with the .edu designation in them and will include results of others who have studied written communications. One article (as yet unread by me) may be seen here also (linked just below and quoted in part):

Hermeneutics (Herman Who?) by Kris A. Murray

While the word hermeneutics may sound a little strange, it happens to be the term for something which we all do every day. In fact, people who might say "Herman who?" after hearing the word are doing it. Or if you were trying to relate the word to something you knew or something that sounded similar, you were doing it too. That is, you were trying to interpret the word, to understand it in relation to something you already know. In fact, that is what the word hermeneutics means- it is the ancient Greek word for 'interpret' or 'interpretive understanding.'

 

[Northman]

Was that a great, big, diplomatic yes?

It was intended to be a great, big, diplomatic and qualified no. A reply that suggests that you may not have read it right. Because that is not what I said. Not what I meant. But then, I can't speak for others. That's the part where the diplomacy enters.

You must know how to google the word, Hermeneutics, right? I've linked a limited and directed search to the word here. Clicking on that link will direct the search to find only sites with the .edu designation in them and will include results of others who have studied written communications. One article (unread by me except the title) may be seen here also (just below)

Hermeneutics (Herman Who?) Kris A. Murray

Has more to do with running crushers on nightshift. Thanks again for taking the time, and apologies for not taking the time.

 

[Brother Mike]

I "slammed" you for putting down hermeneutics and speaking about them falsely. That has nothing to do with the Scriptures you posted.

That is fine Free.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Has more to do with running crushers on nightshift.

I take that to mean that you are working a nightshift and that you are busy running something that is termed "crushers" so it sounds like you are involved with machinery and that you may occasionally be able to give some attention here. You are very welcome for the time, I'm just sitting at home, alone (except for us and God) and time is not a major concern for me this moment. For me? It was rather hectic earlier. Those, G2G!! I'm outta here things, like when I get a frantic phone call (it happens). But now? It's just a time to relax and be thankful for the many blessings that are mine to enjoy.

Thanks too, to you.

 

[Brother Mike]

The scriptures are the inspired word of God, unless He reveals the meaning to you, all the Hermeneutics in the world are useless.

The Foundation of the New Covenant, is being taught by God personally.

And yes Free, Us Spirit Filled believers hear the same exact things. I am talking about the ones that speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick, the real deal ones.

Well put JLB and making my point in a more through and complete way.

Back to the OP.........

Soul Sleep is Myth Busted!!!!


MIke

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Well, if by "busted" you mean that we may ignore what the book of Job has declared utterly? Sure, okay. If by 'busted' we are encouraged to use bumper sticker theology and apologetic methods? I dunno about that! There are other Scriptures than address this rather large subject that has been termed by Paul as part of the foundation doctrines. Mind you, that even as I say this, I would speedily hasten to say that I agree with the familiar scripture that you hang the doctrine and teaching on, Brother Mike, and would also say that for a Christian who shall have found him or herself to have, (and now I'm quoting a phrase from Hamlet) "shuffled off this mortal coil," it (the thing we call death) also means that we are present with the Lord.

But if by myth busted you mean that it has been officially presented on a Television broadcast as part of the patented Myth Buster series? I kinda doubt that. Are you really trying to infer affiliation with them? I don't think so. That's where the study of the written word comes in. I am following a certain type of well established reasoning as I try to understand your speech. Hermeneutics, the study of written communication also includes more than just writing but extends its effort toward understanding all language thru well known Theory of Interpretation.

Your point that we are told that the Holy Spirit teaches all seems to exclude the ministry that my mother was given as she struggled with her young son's comprehension. Mine includes all noble effort and that concept that God is the father of all things pure... It's a point of view thing. Magnify God. He is able. Able to use both of us to communicate the same message as brothers. Sometimes it is us that is unwilling, I've never heard this of the Holy Spirit who is utterly holy and hope all things, believes all things and does not consider a wrong suffered.

Philippians 4:8-9
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

We are to think on whatsoever thing is good and etc. That's okay, right? It is a blessing for me to see the prophecy in action, knowing that God Himself is pouring knowledge out upon the face of the earth in these, the last days. Maybe I misquoted? I can easily find the Scripture that states it is by His Spirit, and that His Spirit (I would guess that includes knowledge) is poured out on the earth. We may find His promise that His Glory shall fill all heaven and all earth. I may have misquoted, it's happened, but I'm not trying to twist. You will not, for instance, hear me preach universal salvation.

Foundation doctrine, spoken of in Hebrews, chapter 6 includes these things. I've mentioned this before. See Post #156

...
Hebrews, chapter 6 speaks of various "foundational doctrines" or teachings. This too is worth of study. Foundation Doctrines may be classified into 3 major groupings of 2 each. Notice how Paul has done much of the work for us, giving the first principles to those he taught:

Foundational Doctrines of Christ (seen through multiple perspectives)

• Repentance From Dead Works
• Faith Towards God

Man's part of things (a couple examples)

• Baptisms
• Laying On Of Hands

Forward thinking:

• Resurrection of the Dead
• Eternal Judgment

View attachment 3530 <<---- click to enlarge

Above pic is a semi-humorous pyramid description borrowed from Moderator only area of forum.

 

[JLB]

Re: Compliance and Submission

You will not, for instance, hear me preach universal salvation.

Amen to that, Brother.

There are other Scriptures than address this rather large subject that has been termed by Paul as part of the foundation doctrines. Mind you, that even as I say this, I would speedily hasten to say that I agree with the familiar scripture that you hang the doctrine and teaching on, Brother Mike, and would also say that for a Christian who shall have found him or herself to have, (and now I'm quoting a phrase from Hamlet) "shuffled off this mortal coil," it (the thing we call death) also means that we are present with the Lord.

Yes sir, Present with the Lord is what Paul taught. Amen!



JLB