The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[Sparkey]

Compliance and Submission

"I'm in compliance," the one known as Sparrow yesterday declared. Then, and as if to slap his hand upon his mouth he said, "No. Ahhh... I'm in submission."

Those words recently came from my mouth. The person that I spoke them to replied, "Yes, submission is the better word." That guy knows me. He is my doctor. He knows the diffilculty that I was having. I won't bother you with too many of the gory details of the exam but I had gone to him because of a cyst on my neck that had grown rather large. 3mm by 4mm today. It's all noted and charted and he's doing the right thing. But that "right thing" included poking me, as doctors do, and it was during the examination and after a discussion where he asked about pain levels that I went to my place of submission.

It was funny, to me. Well, at least part was. Starting out gentle he would announce his intent, "You will feel a needle now," then I felt it. He wanted to see if it would drain and if it did, he would lance it. So it was an "exploratory" exam. Then, and after the initial penetration, he poked me again and just a moment, not even a second later said, "You will feel the needle again."

THAT was the funny part. There I was, on the exam table with a needle being thrust into my neck and up from my belly comes a chuckle. Yep. Not quite a belly laugh, but enough to cause my whole body, including my neck to move. I didn't want to speak because I had a needle in my neck, but when the doctor withdrew it, I felt that too.

"A little late with that one, Doc," I said.

"I know." he replied.

Submission. Interesting stuff. I was not in compliance though. He had asked earlier, "Did you check your blood sugar this morning?"

I did not hang my head. There was no feeling of shame, why pretend? Fact is, I hadn't.

"No. I didn't eat breakfast either," the one known as Sparrow reported candidly. Meaning that if he wanted he could do a Fasting Blood Sugar right then, at 11:00 am in the morning. Have I done a blood sugar (glucose) test since? It's 7:00 pm and no, I have not. You see? I did not lie when I said, "I'm in compliance," then quickly corrected myself to say, "No. Submission. I'm in submission."

Let's take a second and examine ourselves before the Lord. Compliance? Submission? No need to reply, these are inner voice thoughts. Moderator thoughts. Good ones, I'd say. I'm off to the pharmacy now to pick up some anti-biotics so that I might remain in compliance. Back later.

Jesus came to heal us. Why can't we hear him? It could be that we cannot hear becaue we've got beans in our ears.

[video=youtube;Mjx3wG7Kg58]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx3wG7Kg58[/video]

Your moderator, a voluntary Staff member, stands in submission ready for war. Call me. I will join. WE know the end from the beginning.

 

[Deborah13]

These questions and many more will be answered on the next : THIS WAS YOU LIFE.

Starring; Brother Mike

Directed by; Brother Mike

Produced by; Brother Mike

LOL
I think Brother Mike has an interesting effect on some of us. Not saying it's a problem but maybe he tends to bring in some good chuckles, to serious subjects. Gotta' love him. Other times I want to scream, Hey Mikey!

 

[Deborah13]

One thing that is always safe for me to assume is my own personal ignorance.

me too.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Compliance and Submission

"I'm in compliance," the one known as Sparrow yesterday declared. Then, and as if to slap his hand upon his mouth he said, "No. Ahhh... I'm in submission."

Most of the time I think I am in compliance and do my best to be in submission to our great Mod leaders but just this once I willfully post this off topic post from the OP.
Between the doctors office and the beans song your post brought to mind a true story, not a parable, trust me.
At age six one daughter stuffed her ears with tissue so as not to hear her brother. Several days went by, she says she can't hear out of one ear. I couldn't get it out. Off to the clinic. Doc has a new tool. It has a light and tweezers, especially for getting things out of dark orifices. They got to use their new tool. Two weeks later I was back. The one yr. old daughter had stuffed a clover flower up her nose. "What's with your kids?"

At the end of that song does it say Alby J or [MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION]? Sorry, sometimes I transpose.

 

[reba]

Wonderful Deb!

 

[fishbreath]

*waves at all

So did any of you come to a conclusion? What of this soul sleep? - Isn't it the same as being in Abraham's bosom?

 

[Butch5]

I apologize if this subject has already been discussed....A very good friend who is a Christian poet and song writer believes in "soul sleep". Baptist theology is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Away from the body, at home with the Lord. (ESV) I don't think I've ever heard any soul sleep theology. A lot of Christians have wondered about this and 2 Cor. 5:6-8 has been my position. What about "soul sleep"?

A closer reading of that passage reveals that Paul said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body and present with Christ. Paul said he was willing, he didn't say that was a fact. Many Christians claim Paul is saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. That is not what he stated in the said passage. To get a proper understanding of what Paul meant ins 2 Cor. we need to understand what Paul believed about what happens to man when he dies. You see, if we believe that we go to b e with Christ when we die we can easily read that into what Paul said and say, see, Paul believed that when he died he go to be with Christ. However, we're reading this into the text unless we can show that this is indeed what Paul believed.

I don't think one can make the case that Paul believed he would immediately be with Christ when he died. Paul was a Pharisee, a very learned one. Paul was well aware of what the OT Scriptures taught about what happens to a man when he dies. I believe this what Paul would have in mind when he wrote 2 Cor. Unless one can make the case that there has been some new teaching that overturned the OT Scriptures on this issue, I don't the case can be made.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

Paul said as long as we are in the body we are absent from the Lord... knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

Likewise, Paul states to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord

For me this is a definitive statement by an Apostle who knew and experienced first hand to be absent from the body.

Paul and Jesus both taught the same concept.


JLB

Hi JLB,

As I said, if one already comes to the text with that idea one can read it into the text. Can you show me anywhere that Paul teaches that Christians will go directly to be with Christ when they die. What you're claiming here directly contradicts OT teaching on the subject. As I pointed out Paul a Pharisee, and a learned one. He was well acquainted with Judaism and what the Scriptures taught.

 

[JLB]

I apologize if this subject has already been discussed....A very good friend who is a Christian poet and song writer believes in "soul sleep". Baptist theology is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Away from the body, at home with the Lord. (ESV) I don't think I've ever heard any soul sleep theology. A lot of Christians have wondered about this and 2 Cor. 5:6-8 has been my position. What about "soul sleep"?

A closer reading of that passage reveals that Paul said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body and present with Christ. Paul said he was willing, he didn't say that was a fact. Many Christians claim Paul is saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. That is not what he stated in the said passage. To get a proper understanding of what Paul meant ins 2 Cor. we need to understand what Paul believed about what happens to man when he dies. You see, if we believe that we go to b e with Christ when we die we can easily read that into what Paul said and say, see, Paul believed that when he died he go to be with Christ. However, we're reading this into the text unless we can show that this is indeed what Paul believed.

I don't think one can make the case that Paul believed he would immediately be with Christ when he died. Paul was a Pharisee, a very learned one. Paul was well aware of what the OT Scriptures taught about what happens to a man when he dies. I believe this what Paul would have in mind when he wrote 2 Cor. Unless one can make the case that there has been some new teaching that overturned the OT Scriptures on this issue, I don't the case can be made.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

Paul said as long as we are in the body we are absent from the Lord... knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

Likewise, Paul states to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord

For me this is a definitive statement by an Apostle who knew and experienced first hand to be absent from the body.

Paul and Jesus both taught the same concept.


JLB

Hi JLB,

As I said, if one already comes to the text with that idea one can read it into the text. Can you show me anywhere that Paul teaches that Christians will go directly to be with Christ when they die. What you're claiming here directly contradicts OT teaching on the subject. As I pointed out Paul a Pharisee, and a learned one. He was well acquainted with Judaism and what the Scriptures taught.

Yes, I will give the scripture -

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

If you read this scripture with a preconceived Idea in mind, such as "soul sleep", which the Old Testament may or may not teach, then I suppose you would be inclined to reject what Paul and what Jesus taught.

Could you give me the scriptures from the old testament that overrules what Jesus taught us in Luke 16, and what Paul taught us in 2 Corinthians.

Keep in mind that both Jesus and Paul actually experienced what happens in the Spirit world when a person's spirit leaves their body.

Both Paul and Jesus taught from experiential knowledge, whereas those in the Old Testament did not.

However, I would like to hear your perspective and your scriptures that states what happens to a person's spirit when it leaves their body.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

Paul said as long as we are in the body we are absent from the Lord... knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

Likewise, Paul states to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord

For me this is a definitive statement by an Apostle who knew and experienced first hand to be absent from the body.

Paul and Jesus both taught the same concept.


JLB

Hi JLB,

As I said, if one already comes to the text with that idea one can read it into the text. Can you show me anywhere that Paul teaches that Christians will go directly to be with Christ when they die. What you're claiming here directly contradicts OT teaching on the subject. As I pointed out Paul a Pharisee, and a learned one. He was well acquainted with Judaism and what the Scriptures taught.

Yes, I will give the scripture -

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

If you read this scripture with a preconceived Idea in mind, such as "soul sleep", which the Old Testament may or may not teach, then I suppose you would be inclined to reject what Paul and what Jesus taught.

Could you give me the scriptures from the old testament that overrules what Jesus taught us in Luke 16, and what Paul taught us in 2 Corinthians.

Keep in mind that both Jesus and Paul actually experienced what happens in the Spirit world when a person's spirit leaves their body.

Both Paul and Jesus taught from experiential knowledge, whereas those in the Old Testament did not.

However, I would like to hear your perspective and your scriptures that states what happens to a person's spirit when it leaves their body.



JLB

JLB,

In that passage Paul is not teaching something, he's making a statement. If you read that passage in context it becomes clear that Paul is not saying what you're claiming. Read the passage from the beginning of the chapter.

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:1 KJV)

From the context it's clear that Paul is contrasting his earthly body with his resurrected body. He's not talking about being a spirit that foes off to be with Christ. He specifically says, that he "doesn't" want to be unclothed. He doesn't want to be out of the body. The phrase "but clothed upon" that is in blue literally translates, to be overclothed. It means to put something on over the existing clothing. He saying that he wants to put his resurrected body on over his fleshly body so that mortality should be swallowed up of life or immortality.

Regarding the OT teaching on what happens to a man the "teaching" is quite clear. We can see from the creation account that a living soul consists of the breath/spirit of God and a body.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJV)

We can see that man consists of the breath of God and the dust of the ground from which the body is formed. God told Adam if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. Adam did eat and God said,

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

God told Adam when he died he would return to the dust. It can be seen from that the body returns to the dust. The breath/spirit is God's and Scripture says that it returns to God when a man dies.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?(Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

According to this passage from Solomon both man and beast have one breath/spirit (which we know from Genesis is God's breath/spirit) and when a man dies that goes back to God.

We see the same thing from Job.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

Job says if God gathered his spirit to himself all flesh would die and man would return to the dust. Again, there is nothing left to live on. It is the body of man and the breath/spirit of God that constitutes a man.


There is no other spirit in a man to live on after death. Paul was well acquainted with these Scriptures and would understand them. Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees and this was the Jewish understanding of what happened to man at his death. Paul doesn't teach anything different than this. The context of 2 Cor 5 shows that Paul is speaking of the resurrection and not a spirit that goes to be with Christ at death.

I've pointed out that the idea of a spirit in man that ascends into the heavens comes from Gnosticism and Greek philosophy, it's not the teaching of the Scriptures.

 

[JLB]

Regarding the OT teaching on what happens to a man the "teaching" is quite clear. We can see from the creation account that a living soul consists of the breath/spirit of God and a body.

We know from the scripture in the New Testament that man is indeed , spirit, soul and body.

Man's body was formed from the dust, when man's body dies it return's to the dust.

Man's spirit and soul either go to be with the Lord, or to hell.

2 Corinthians 5, and Luke 16 teaches just that.

Solomon wrote alot of things in his depraved state, as well as Job.

Job made this statement, The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but as we read Job, we know that Satan was the one who was behind the turmoil.

None of the scriptures you qouted states anything about soul sleep, nor do they over rule what Jesus and Paul wrote.

Sorry Brother, I will just believe what Jesus and Paul taught.


JLB

 

[farouk]

"Absent from the body...present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5.8.

Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

So did any of you come to a conclusion? What of this soul sleep? - Isn't it the same as being in Abraham's bosom?

We go right to be with Jesus and wait with him.

"Absent from the body...present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5.8.

Blessings.

I thought I responded to this, Great post!!! I agree once again

Mike.

 

[Butch5]

Regarding the OT teaching on what happens to a man the "teaching" is quite clear. We can see from the creation account that a living soul consists of the breath/spirit of God and a body.

We know from the scripture in the New Testament that man is indeed , spirit, soul and body.

Man's body was formed from the dust, when man's body dies it return's to the dust.

Man's spirit and soul either go to be with the Lord, or to hell.

2 Corinthians 5, and Luke 16 teaches just that.

Solomon wrote alot of things in his depraved state, as well as Job.

Job made this statement, The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but as we read Job, we know that Satan was the one who was behind the turmoil.

None of the scriptures you qouted states anything about soul sleep, nor do they over rule what Jesus and Paul wrote.

Sorry Brother, I will just believe what Jesus and Paul taught.


JLB

If you're gonna believe what Jesus and Paul taught then you wouldn't be speaking of a spirit that goes on after death. I've already pointed out that Paul was referring to his incorruptible body that he would get at the resurrection. Paul said nothing about a spirit that lives on after death, that idea is imposed on the passage. Likewise Jesus too was speaking of the resurrection when he spoke of God being the god of the living not the dead.

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:23-32 KJV)

Again the context is the resurrection not a spirit that lives on after death.


Luke 16 is a parable within a group of parables. I've already asked you about the larger context. However, If the story was real there would be problem. In the story the rich man is suffering torment in the flames in Hades which is not the place of torment. Jesus would be well aware of this since He is the one who spoke of Gehenna. He is the one who gave a description of Gehenna. Another problem is that the rich man would be in torment before the judgment. According to Scripture no one is in the lake of fire which is Gehenna the place of torment until after the judgment.

Here's another problem with that idea.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb 9:24-28 KJV)

Christ is the high priest and has entered into the holy of holies to enter into the presence of God. No one but the high priest alone can enter into the holy of holies. So, while Christ is in there no one is going to be with Him. Paul said Christ will come out, appear a second time with salvation for those who look for Him.

 

[JLB]

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:23-32 KJV)

Do you understand that Jesus was teaching that a person goes on living, after their body has died.

The point He made was, God declared Himself to be the God of Abraham when He spoke those words at the burning bush.

At the burning bush, God declared He was the God of Abraham, even though Abraham had been buried for 400 years, he Abraham was alive.

Jesus declares Abraham was alive in Abraham's Bosom [Paradise], in the heart of the earth.

How can you possibly not know this.

The Lord said He was the God of Abraham, at the burning bush; meaning Abraham was alive.


JLB

 

[farouk]

*waves at all

So did any of you come to a conclusion? What of this soul sleep? - Isn't it the same as being in Abraham's bosom?

@FloatingAxeHead :

Well, I guess that different people may sometimes use the term 'soul sleep' in different ways, but often it refers to the idea that after death (the Rapture doesn't tend to be stressed by its proponents) the Christian goes into a sort of limbo and awaits various events and then eventually gets to the Lord's presence.

For me personally, the verse 'absent from the body...present with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5.8) preaches clearly and effectively and reassuringly.

Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Part of the lesson here comes from grappling with the the concept of the Perspicuity of Scripture <---- click link to another thread for full quote and replies.

There we see an observation quoted below:

I know the word "Perspicuity of Scripture" is a mouthful, and many may not be familiar with it.

It is a doctrine which accompanies the doctrine of sola scriptura, but is not identical with sola scriptura. The word perspicuity refers to the characteristic of clearness and lucidity in a body of literature.

This means that the bible can be understood by people who diligently work at understanding the scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit. It does not mean everyone is right in claiming to understand the scriptures, many err. Not every single part has to be perfectly clear, but its message is understandable. This aspect of the scripture might be assumed by some, but there has been many who rejected the doctrine.

It's easy to follow quote links. Do you see that little, blue, double arrow >> next to mondar's name? Click right there and the hyperlink will take you to the thread in the Focus on Scripture forum. As always, be sure to read the rules for the forum before posting. They are found at the top (the "Sticky" area) here: Rules for posting in FoS

Regarding the need to study the Bible we know that we are admonished to earnestly desire to drink the pure milk of the word; "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the Word, that ye may grow thereby" (I Peter 2:2). We also see other aspects of the "bread of Life" being mentioned, told that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God (Mat 4:4; Deut 8:3)

Some may notice that there are still other 'kinds' of things found in the bible, like parables and stories. Such things require more effort to uncover their meaning, a greater amount of chewing, for instance or perhaps a stronger digestive system. Parables present meanings behind things and may use analogies, where many things line up, but not all things. Similarities, metaphors, analogies, types & anti-types are often considered the soft-meats of the bible.

Basic introductory teachings should be taught by one who is mature in the faith. The apostle Paul, a nurturing spiritual father to the church at Corinth, wrote to them saying: "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"
(I Corinthians 3:1-3).

Hebrews, chapter 6 speaks of various "foundational doctrines" or teachings. This too is worth of study. Foundation Doctrines may be classified into 3 major groupings of 2 each. Notice how Paul has done much of the work for us, giving the first principles to those he taught:

Foundational Doctrines of Christ (seen through multiple perspectives)

• Repentance From Dead Works
• Faith Towards God

Man's part of things (a couple examples)

• Baptisms
• Laying On Of Hands

Forward thinking:

• Resurrection of the Dead
• Eternal Judgment

So as we are aware that we are building on another person's foundation so also do we strive to work together and in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, the ultimate builder. Toward that end some, mature in the word, are given revelation. They see what it is to build with wood, hay, and stubble and may also be full of the sure knowledge that such things simply will not stand when the time comes and all that can be shaken will be shaken.

Bringing this back to the concept of "soul sleep" we look with an idea of the thought called "first mention" and turn to one of the origins. That comes from Job (quoted in other sections and posts below). That's just a something to keep in mine, to call to remembrance, and that, taken along with other Scripture is going to be considered later, perhaps even by a teacher of renown himself, named Saul of Tarsus while he studied, and called the Apostle Paul after the time of his personal meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Now we are not yet talking about "strong meat" here, but this is only meat. It is something that might not be uncovered easily or readily but all, but it may be clearly understood by those skilled in the use of biblical hermeneutics and the study of all documents written.

As our journey through the pages of the Bible unfolds we do indeed come to the Holy Spirit inspired witness through the expert known as Paul who was chosen to author and/or pen more than 1/2 of the new testament itself. That's the often quoted, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

If we try to hang our doctrine elsewhere? It could turn out, that according to Paul, our thoughts are eventually going to be seen as somewhat lopsided. That does not mean that discussion is prohibited, how else may we digest the word of truth?

Still, the question may arise when some come and ask about that familiar scripture that is oftentimes viewed and called the "rapture scripture". For this, we need to hang on to every thing and every thought we've already considered and while still chewing this and that, consider what the words "shall not prevent" and "those that sleep" may mean.

At this point many argument may break out, but to an animal who is known to chew his/her cud? No interest in carnivorous habits may disturb the contentedness needed to continue to regurgitate and produce milk, even from grass. In other words, sharp teeth may be required. Beware of accidental bites.
View attachment 3527 <<---- click to enlarge

Above pic is a semi-humorous pyramid description borrowed from Moderator only area of forum.

 

[farouk]

So did any of you come to a conclusion? What of this soul sleep? - Isn't it the same as being in Abraham's bosom?

We go right to be with Jesus and wait with him.

"Absent from the body...present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5.8.

Blessings.

I thought I responded to this, Great post!!! I agree once again

Mike.

I sometimes don't remember quite what I've posted...

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Compliance and Submission

So did any of you come to a conclusion? What of this soul sleep? - Isn't it the same as being in Abraham's bosom?

It is Myth Busted!!!

I sometimes don't remember quite what I've posted...

Well, every Post that Agrees with me is a great post. So I will help you remember those Great Post

understood by those skilled in the use of biblical hermeneutics

skilled use of what? who is Herman? I have heard of the Holy Spirit that teaches all things. Herman his helper?

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Compliance and Submission

skilled use of what? who is Herman? I have heard of the Holy Spirit that teaches all things. Herman his helper?

There may come some who may think that men who have gone before us were unaided when they dedicated their lives to the study of the written word. Me? I'm thankful for the bread-crumbs that they left during the course of their study. 'Herman' (if we may term this that) knows how to read written documents of all sorts. There is almost a science to it. You are right about the Holy Spirit who is sent to teach us, of course, but if that includes a presumption (and I'm not saying it does) that this same Spirit was not given to others who have gone before us? I would raise my hand and say, "Interesting." That's about as noncommittal as I get. Consider Paul as he wrote and consider the comments of a fisherman, who also served, and said that some things are difficult to understand. Both were said under that same unction of the Holy Spirit.

This same God is a master fishermen who seeks to catch not only salmon but also perch, and yes, maybe even a dog-fish (a type of shark) or two.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Compliance and Submission

Herman' (if we may term this that) knows how to read written documents of all sorts. There is almost a science to it.

I am grateful myself for Past Teachers. I fully believe we have a greater revelation of the Word of God today than we did in 1900.

Hermeneutics has taken into account who was being spoken about, the time, the custom, and ripped faith completely from the equation. It no longer because God's Word to me, every single word, but a Word for peoples, places and the culture at the time. This is why I have a big issue figuring out what Jewish people understood when trying to understand the Word.

The Word is life, it is the creator who exalted His Word above his name. God's word was sent to deliver us, to heal us for our own mess (Destructions) It's a Word that passes by any culture, or time period being eternal. Cultures change, God's Word never changes.

The Word is God, Telling us who He is, How He thinks and How he will respond in every situation. The Jewish people, the Romans, the Sabeans, are no more or less His creation than you or I.

God gives us specific instructions on Understanding his Word.

His Word is truth, peace, ZERO partiality and without Hypocrisy. (James)

Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

That means there are zero contradictions, Zero things that would lead us to believe one thing when it's another. If it is that One thing, the Word tells us. The Word is precise, and perfect.
God does not do one thing for a person, that He won't do for another. This is why we defeated the evil one by the Word of our testimonies.

The Word is to be compared, line upon line. Here a little, over there a little. We compare spiritual with spiritual.

Hos_12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, (To compare like things) by the ministry of the prophets.

No scripture of Passage is to be taken by itself to be understood. Everything must match something else.

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Only the Holy Spirit can teach, bringing to us comparisons to compare. Like things with like things. Man can not teach it, and Hermeneutics is a man made object.

Job for example, the only place in the bible a man serves God and it appears God makes a deal with the devil to harm the man that served Him. There is no other example of this, so we know not to take this in a private setting, something else must have happened. This is our safeguard, to know who God is.

2Sa_24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

God caused David to number the Troops, Satan did it?

The Word is perfect, both are correct. The Holy Spirit can reveal exactly what had happened but it takes several other scriptures to understand it.

This is why Brother, Mike is not real good friends with Herman. Herman will tell you God is mysterious when Herman don't know, and Herman will make God out to be a respecter of persons, Healing one and leaving the other sick.

Your blessed.

Mike.