The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[Brother Mike]

As for Abraham being discredited, I'm still missing this. This idea that Jesus somehow discredited Abraham by using his name in a parable is akin to the thinking of the Jews in John 8:56-57 that made a similar accusation against Jesus for invoking Abraham's name.

I see we will have to go a bit deeper here than what the Original OP intended. We have left TOG in the dust somewhere.

John 8:56-57 the same as Luke same as Matthew were not parables, stories but literal and real.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Abraham really said that really was hoping for that, it was not made up or a parable.

Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


NO, reading what you said the issue is that if it's not a parable then it messes with your new found concept of some literal Hell.

You know it does not match any other parable, You know Jesus would have never said anything if Abraham had not said it.

You know these things but it would mean you would have to believe Abraham was in a literal place called Abraham's Bosom. That is the problem we are having here, and your not even 100% that the jury is out because twice you said "May" and "Maybe".

You know very good and well if I said you said some things you never said then it's wrong. Calling it a parable does not make it right. You know this......

It also opens the door to call anything I want a parable. I know you would not allow that either.

I respect your complete break down of the Word however, but it's these Spiritual things where I believe you miss the concept of the spiritual taking the literal natural with historical reasoning. I have seen it in other post and one has to ask if the concept is there. Are we talking about Satan in Isa 14, Eze 28? Or just some king on the earth. We missing the spiritual concept by taking it literal or we trying to be WAY to spiritual to understand the concept.

If anything I would at least expect you to compare the other parables and and least say "Jesus never said hell, just a place called Abraham's bosom and that does not mean hell and proves nothing about hell. Jesus would not misrepresent Abraham and it's not like all the other parables but it's not proof enough to prove a hell."

I would at least expect that.

Without getting into Greek Adjectives and Nouns there won't be much to talk about as to continue would take the OP way out in the land of complex things only about 3 of us here would fathom.

Be blessed brother!!!

You know.....

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike.

 

[TOG]

Building a doctrine on your experience and opinion that contradicts scripture is foolishness.

Since your only replies to me are twisting my words and accusing me of things I have often denied, in spite of the fact that you don't know the first thing about me, I am no longer taking part in this discussion

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

Building a doctrine on your experience and opinion that contradicts scripture is foolishness.

Since your only replies to me are twisting my words and accusing me of things I have often denied, in spite of the fact that you don't know the first thing about me, I am no longer taking part in this discussion

The TOG
​

I am giving you an example of the difference.

I am not saying that you build a doctrine off ONLY your opinion and experience.

This is an example of the difference.


JLB

 

[WIP]

Let's try to keep to the discussion topic and avoid the personal comments, please.

 

[Chopper]

There certainly has been a lot of information inserted into this thread. I am a simple man, what I mean is, I have looked hard at 1 Corinthians 1:17 - 2:16. Quite frankly, some of the posts were beyond the comprehension of a simple man. I wanted to reinforce my belief in "absent from the body, present with the Lord". Soul sleep was never a part of my theology. To make sure that my interpretation of Scripture fell in line with 1 Corinthians 2:14 I would frequently remind myself of that text. I have been able to glean out of all the posts enough information to confidently say that I will go to be with the Lord as soon as I breath my last here on earth. Thank all of you, so much, for your input.

 

[Sparkey]

Let's try to keep to the discussion topic and avoid the personal comments, please.

Here is a guideline from another forum where things are sometimes hotly debated.

Hi,
...
I have tried removing the word "you" from my posts as much as possible. I think it changes the tone and eliminates most what could be interpreted as harsh.

To be honest, I imagine I am addressing my mother when I write my posts. At least most of the time.

I have to say I really struggled with my last reply to [Member_Name removed]. I hope I wasn't too harsh. Even though I disagree with him he is still my brother.

Blessings!

It is good, in my sight, to take this to heart.

 

[reba]

Just wondering if this has any place in this discussion...

Gen 50:24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Gen 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

 

[farouk]

Re. the original question, I reckon I'll stick with 2 Corinthians 5.8.

 

[Butch5]

I apologize if this subject has already been discussed....A very good friend who is a Christian poet and song writer believes in "soul sleep". Baptist theology is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Away from the body, at home with the Lord. (ESV) I don't think I've ever heard any soul sleep theology. A lot of Christians have wondered about this and 2 Cor. 5:6-8 has been my position. What about "soul sleep"?

A closer reading of that passage reveals that Paul said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body and present with Christ. Paul said he was willing, he didn't say that was a fact. Many Christians claim Paul is saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. That is not what he stated in the said passage. To get a proper understanding of what Paul meant ins 2 Cor. we need to understand what Paul believed about what happens to man when he dies. You see, if we believe that we go to b e with Christ when we die we can easily read that into what Paul said and say, see, Paul believed that when he died he go to be with Christ. However, we're reading this into the text unless we can show that this is indeed what Paul believed.

I don't think one can make the case that Paul believed he would immediately be with Christ when he died. Paul was a Pharisee, a very learned one. Paul was well aware of what the OT Scriptures taught about what happens to a man when he dies. I believe this what Paul would have in mind when he wrote 2 Cor. Unless one can make the case that there has been some new teaching that overturned the OT Scriptures on this issue, I don't the case can be made.

 

[Butch5]

There certainly has been a lot of information inserted into this thread. I am a simple man, what I mean is, I have looked hard at 1 Corinthians 1:17 - 2:16. Quite frankly, some of the posts were beyond the comprehension of a simple man. I wanted to reinforce my belief in "absent from the body, present with the Lord". Soul sleep was never a part of my theology. To make sure that my interpretation of Scripture fell in line with 1 Corinthians 2:14 I would frequently remind myself of that text. I have been able to glean out of all the posts enough information to confidently say that I will go to be with the Lord as soon as I breath my last here on earth. Thank all of you, so much, for your input.

An in depth Study of the OT Scriptures will answer your question.

 

[Sparkey]

You've defeated my Giant.

Which means you're incredibly strong...​

But you've also bested my Spaniard

Which means you have studied​

But wait! There's more.

What about relativity? That thought was advanced by some guy at the turn of last century, right?
It's about how time is measured differently by different 'observers' or at different extremes of speed.

What if in eternity time is stopped? Or changed in such a manner that we would not be able to appreciate it *now* or know how to say it? Could both thoughts be true? If our perception of time is also influenced by Gravity (it is) how does that figure in?

One thing that is always safe for me to assume is my own personal ignorance.

 

[farouk]

You've defeated my Giant.

Which means you're incredibly strong...​

But you've also bested my Spaniard

Which means you have studied​

But wait! There's more.

What about relativity? That thought was advanced by some guy at the turn of last century, right?
It's about how time is measured differently by different 'observers' or at different extremes of speed.

What if in eternity time is stopped? Or changed in such a manner that we would not be able to appreciate it *now* or know how to say it? Could both thoughts be true? If our perception of time is also influenced by Gravity (it is) how does that figure in?

One thing that is always safe for me to assume is my own personal ignorance.

Sparrowhawke:

Re. this topic:

2 Corinthians 5.8 sums it up: 'absent from the body...present with the Lord'.

Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

Sparrowhawke:

Re. this topic:

2 Corinthians 5.8 sums it up: 'absent from the body...present with the Lord'.

Blessings.

Clears it up for me also.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

I apologize if this subject has already been discussed....A very good friend who is a Christian poet and song writer believes in "soul sleep". Baptist theology is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Away from the body, at home with the Lord. (ESV) I don't think I've ever heard any soul sleep theology. A lot of Christians have wondered about this and 2 Cor. 5:6-8 has been my position. What about "soul sleep"?

A closer reading of that passage reveals that Paul said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body and present with Christ. Paul said he was willing, he didn't say that was a fact. Many Christians claim Paul is saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. That is not what he stated in the said passage. To get a proper understanding of what Paul meant ins 2 Cor. we need to understand what Paul believed about what happens to man when he dies. You see, if we believe that we go to b e with Christ when we die we can easily read that into what Paul said and say, see, Paul believed that when he died he go to be with Christ. However, we're reading this into the text unless we can show that this is indeed what Paul believed.

I don't think one can make the case that Paul believed he would immediately be with Christ when he died. Paul was a Pharisee, a very learned one. Paul was well aware of what the OT Scriptures taught about what happens to a man when he dies. I believe this what Paul would have in mind when he wrote 2 Cor. Unless one can make the case that there has been some new teaching that overturned the OT Scriptures on this issue, I don't the case can be made.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

Paul said as long as we are in the body we are absent from the Lord... knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

Likewise, Paul states to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord

For me this is a definitive statement by an Apostle who knew and experienced first hand to be absent from the body.

Paul and Jesus both taught the same concept.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

A closer reading of that passage reveals that Paul said, I am willing rather to be absent from the body and present with Christ. Paul said he was willing, he didn't say that was a fact.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

One condition, to be in body is to be absent from the Lord.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

Confident that being absent from the body is to be with the Lord, and willing to do so.


Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

I asked earlier about "relativity" but maybe my question could have included something about the whole word of God and the attempt to shoebox things into one single quote. Yes, that is a summary statement and yes it is true. Is it not also possible that there is more? Or should I place blinders as I ask about the impossible, while seeking to know the whole 'mind of God'? That's what I was in reference to when I quoted a pop culture fictional character as saying, "Wait, there is more."

Mostly? What I read: Although we may have different opinions about this or that, it is imperative that we fervently love the brethren.

Find that one in a summary of the 2nd epistle sent by Paul to those in Corinth. It's not difficult.

 

[Chopper]

For me this is a definitive statement by an Apostle who knew and experienced first hand to be absent from the body.

Paul and Jesus both taught the same concept.

Thanks JLB , Mike I agree.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thanks JLB , Mike I agree.

EDITED

If Soul Sleep was not a Myth......

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Then God should have told these folks that Died for the Word that they are being way to loud for people that should be sleeping. Shame on God for not doing that!!!! Don't those people know it's Bedtime?

I did miss this one scripture though..................... I thought it said one thing but after looking at it I guess it reads different.

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou get thy jammies, pillow and blankets for a nice long soul sleep that thou be rested when I get around to resurrecting you up out of your nice long sleep.

I guess Jesus must have said that.

Mike

 

[JLB]

Thanks JLB , Mike I agree.

edited

If Soul Sleep was not a Myth......

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Then God should have told these folks that Died for the Word that they are being way to loud for people that should be sleeping. Shame on God for not doing that!!!! Don't those people know it's Bedtime?

I did miss this one scripture though..................... I thought it said one thing but after looking at it I guess it reads different.

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou get thy jammies, pillow and blankets for a nice long soul sleep that thou be rested when I get around to resurrecting you up out of your nice long sleep.

I guess Jesus must have said that.

Mike

Yes, and Greek word for Jammies is used here in the female voice, which is peculiar for that type of sentence construction.

If He would have used the full male noun, which is rendered "pajamas", then we might consider that The Lord was using Parabolic Imagery.

So, By Him saying "jammies", we know it was literal speech.

Another great point Mike, as I see you have done your homework again.


Thanks , JLB

 

[Sparkey]

I try to give all due diligence as a moderator to remain on topic. I do ask prayer, that I may go in the Name of the Lord and with the prayers of the saints as I perform a sacred duty mine. Sometimes, and again, as a moderator, I go off topic. My prerogative, entrusted to me and to other guardian contributors of this site includes going from the very specific to the very wide (hopefully wise) focus as needed.

That is a prelude to a lesson because, and again, the issue of "fair treatment" as defined by the word, as contrasted and contested by the WORLD and that which is behind such things, rears its head here. Therefore speak the one known as Sparrow who says, If you follow me, make certain that you are in compliance with the spirit of the Terms of Service. Those terms are not the bible but they are based on principles derived from the Word of Trust.

Now then... comes my next post. Compliance and Submission. It is part of the daily bread offered to me, cast on the waters, in hope of future blessing found in the hearts of those who have been given ears to hear. It is offered without apology and with the hope that others may be given understanding.