The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[Brother Mike]

The text in 1st Sam 28 says nothing about Abraham's Bosom. It says Samuel came up from the ground/out of the earth.

Sometimes it helps if you examine the whole and understand the spiritual side of things and not take the scripture in a dogmatic way. When Jesus hit the earth on both feet, lots of things were introduced that the Language at the time had trouble conveying. The best words were used to understand the real spiritual concept.

Heaven was not an option for Abraham or Samuel. As Heb 11 states it was a concept of something they could not achieve yet until Jesus did the work He was assigned to do. Abraham ended up in Hell, but Hell separated by a large Chasm. The wicked dead ended up on the side where there was torment, those not wicked ended up in paradise or Abraham's bosom.

We can see both spirit and soul intact in these regions and even cloths and water so it was just not all spiritual but had physical substance. When Samuel was seen He would have appeared in cloths and as he always would have. He would also had to be waiting for the promise in Abraham's bosom.

So, you must define what exactly the soul is........... It's us and connects to the physical organ called our brain. Memory is not stored in a brain in fact some there is a soul that the brain allows access to this outside world.

Paul said He believes into the saving of the soul or saving the person just as they were personality wise intact with the persons spirit.

However, Soul sleep is a myth, spirits can't be killed nor do spirits sleep. We are spirits with soul and body.

Since Abraham and the rich men both remembered their past life, the rich man wanting to warn his people, also means the soul and spirit are intact.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Samuel came up from Abrahams Bosom

The text in 1st Sam 28 says nothing about Abraham's Bosom. It says Samuel came up from the ground/out of the earth.

God is the God of the living.

You quote this as if it somehow backs the idea that souls live on after death and before the resurrection. It does not support that conclusion my friend. What you are quoting can be found in Luke 20:38. It you look at the context Jesus explains exactly what this quote means.

"The men of this age," replied Jesus, "marry, and the women are given in marriage. 35But as for those who shall have been deemed worthy to find a place in that other age and in the Resurrection from among the dead, the men do not marry and the women are not given in marriage. 36For indeed they cannot die again; they are like angels, and are sons of God through being sons of the Resurrection. 37But that the dead rise to life even Moses clearly implies in the passage about the Bush, where he calls the Lord 'The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38He is not a God of dead, but of living men, for to Him are all living."

Jesus said God is a God of the living in light of the idea that the resurrection was real, not because souls live on after death!

Abraham was considered to be alive at the time Jesus made this statement.

Then Jesus taught us in detail about Abraham, in Luke 16 and where he was, so we also could know this truth.

You either believe what Jesus said or you don't.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Soul sleep is a myth

Gen 2:7 reads: And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

From the earliest of scriptures readers are told that living creatures ARE souls. And being that we are souls and we need sleep, technically souls must sleep.

So, you must define what exactly the soul is...........

Soul = Body of dirt (flesh) + Breath of God (spirit) - Genesis 2:7

, spirits can't be killed nor do spirits sleep. We are spirits with soul and body.

We are living souls BM. The word 'soul' comes from Greek roots and it refers to something that breathes. A soul is what a living body whether man or beast actually is. We are not spirits, we are living souls/persons that became so based on the quickening of God's breath/spirit. This spirit or breath of life was given to all the living by God and is what makes us alive. When we die this God-given spirit/breath returns to Him (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

As for spirits not being able to be killed, I must ask why you draw that conclusion. The Bible says that it is God alone that posseses immortality, so saying that spirits are immortal goes against scripture (1 Timothy 6:16).

 

[JLB]

Soul sleep is a myth

Gen 2:7 reads: And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

From the earliest of scriptures readers are told that living creatures ARE souls. And being that we are souls and we need sleep, technically souls must sleep.

So, you must define what exactly the soul is...........

Soul = Body of dirt (flesh) + Breath of God (spirit) - Genesis 2:7

, spirits can't be killed nor do spirits sleep. We are spirits with soul and body.

We are living souls BM. The word 'soul' comes from Greek roots and it refers to something that breathes. A soul is what a living body whether man or beast actually is. We are not spirits, we are living souls/persons that became so based on the quickening of God's breath/spirit. This spirit or breath of life was given to all the living by God and is what makes us alive. When we die this God-given spirit/breath returns to Him (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

As for spirits not being able to be killed, I must ask why you draw that conclusion. The Bible says that it is God alone that posseses immortality, so saying that spirits are immortal goes against scripture (1 Timothy 6:16).

We are three yet one.

Spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Body is not the soul.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You either believe what Jesus said or you don't.

It's not that simple JLB. The 1st thing we need to do is try and understand what the writer of Luke implies that Jesus meant in the 16th chapter. Was the subject what happens at death or was the subject matter something entirely different that Jesus used a parable to illustrate?

Then Jesus taught us in detail about Abraham, in Luke 16 and where he was, so we also could know this truth.

Abraham was NOT the subject of Luke 16 or its surrounding context. The overall context tells us that Jesus was addressing the Pharissees whom he had said things like this to:
- ‘You claim to be righteous before men, but God knows [what’s in] your hearts. for, things that are important to men, are disgusting in the eyes of [our] God. (Luke 16:15)
- And Jesus said to them, ‘Didn’t you ever read in the Scriptures, The stone that the builders rejected has become the head of the corner… and it’s a wonderful thing in our eyes? This is why I tell you; The Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that produces its fruit. For, the person who falls on this stone will be shattered, and anyone it falls on will be smashed!’
Now, when the Chief Priests and the Pharisees heard these illustrations, they realized that he was talking about them. (Matthew 21:42-45)
- ‘However, the Sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There they will cry and grind their teeth.’ (Matthew 8:12)

The sons of the kingdom referenced was identified as the Jews and their leaders and it is in light of such discourses between Jesus and these leaders that the Luke 16 passage is written.

 

[Brother Mike]

As for spirits not being able to be killed, I must ask why you draw that conclusion. The Bible says that it is God alone that posseses immortality, so saying that spirits are immortal goes against scripture (1 Timothy 6:16).

Let's make it clear that I don't go against scriptures. We might draw different conclusions but.......

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Would denote that He being exempt from any kind of death. We die, our bodies give up someday. What it does not say is that man is not also immortal. It just says God is not subject to death or any form of it.

Jesus called us Theos........... The Greek Word literally means deity of some origin, and the only thing that makes a deity is immortality. Satan was called theos, immortal also.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

This is the separation of body...... sleep....... dead........... back to dust as opposed to the spirit of man. Some men are like beast and their spirit goes down, those not like beast go up. Not dead, but going somewhere and it's the body that turned to dust and has no more part under the sun, nor does it know anything under the sun.

We are created in the image of God, like God and God is immortal. We take on that same form..........when our bodies die, we go somewhere and keep our awareness.

Mat_8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Devils are also spirits (rats) There is a time they will be thrown in the lake of fire. They did not say have you come to destroy us, but torment us before it's time.

Jesus said it's God that can destroy both body and soul in Hell, nothing mentioned about the spirit and shows some type of body is given or it works somehow, I don't know, not been to hell to see.

There is no soul sleep, we go somewhere..............We are spirits with a soul and stuck in a body. Our Soul is not born again but must be transformed by the Word of God (James) It's our born again spirit made of incorruptible seed and the thing that made it is alive and never dies also.

We are three yet one.

Spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Body is not the soul.


JLB

What JLB said.......................

Mike.

 

[TOG]

@TOG :

Dear brother,

the view of Scipture that you are revealing here above is very familiar to me.
It is the view of Jehovah's Witnesses. I know, because I have been one myself.
Please do not (!) take offense in me mentioning that. For the sake of peace and understanding, I have decided to reply here.

I do not know if you are familiar with the Watchtower doctrines, or if you have learned those views somewhere else. For the other readers it might be difficult to understand the thinking process of your posts.

The question I asked people on my door-to-door fieldservice was, how could Jesus be in Paradise together with the thief "today" if He still had to wait until He would rise on the third day? The explanation then referred to the Watchtower's own translation (which you might have in mind when offering the other version). There it is emphasized that the Greek original didn't know punctuation. Thus, it was the decision of the later translators to either put the comma in front of or after the word "today". The only version I know of using the latter choice is Watchtower's New World Translation. " Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise."

The background of those different views is important. JWs don't believe that Jesus is God. In fact, they use an argument that says, if Jesus would have been God, he wouldn't have existed for three days when dead.
They don't accept the truth that God expresses Himself in three persons, One of Whom is The Son Jesus. Hence they are not able to transfer this truth to the sentence on the cross, namely that the thief could indeed be with Jesus in Paradise "today", because God never stops to exist.

I hope, dear brother, that makes sense to you. I have really tried to explain this to my former fellow believers, but they won't listen to me.
Please do not think that I would like to appear smart. I am definitely not!
I just found it so very important to understand this very issue, as it made me leave Jesus as my Lord years ago, only to find that it was a huge mistake.

May God bless you.
Maedchen

So, what you're saying is basically

1. Because the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong about some things (such as Jesus not being God), then they must be wrong about all things (including our state after death)
2. Because I agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses on one thing ("soul sleep"), then I must agree with them on all things (including Jesus not being God)
3. Since Jehovah's Witnesses believe a doctrine (such as "soul sleep"), nobody could ever get that doctrine from anywhere else (such as from other Christians or by studying the Bible)

Is that basically it? Sorry, but all of those are wrong.

1. Satan is evil, but he is not stupid. He knows that you won't deceive anyone if you only tell obvious lies. That's why all cults have doctrines that are a mixture of truth and lies. In other words, they sometimes teach the truth
2. Because they sometimes teach the truth, Christians will agree with cults on some doctrines, while disagreeing with others
3. No cult or denomination has exclusive rights to any doctrine. People can come to the same conclusions on their own

I know very little about JW teachings, and was not even aware that they were in agreement with me on this point. I do not base any of my beliefs on the teachings of any cult. If you or anyone else could address the points I've made and the Scripture I've quoted, then I'd be willing to discuss that. But it seems that nobody here is willing or able to actually address the issue. All I get is a repeat of the same verses that I've already answered, and accusations of being in/influenced by a cult.

The TOG

​

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=96759]TOG[/MENTION] :

Dear brother,

I am truly sorry for having made you upset. I didn't mean that.
The one who has been influenced by a cult is me myself.

Please forgive me.
Maedchen

 

[TOG]

[MENTION=96759]TOG[/MENTION] :

Dear brother,

I am truly sorry for having made you upset. I didn't mean that.
The one who has been influenced by a cult is me myself.

Please forgive me.
Maedchen

I was probably a bit too quick to answer. I do understand that you were in this cult and that's why you are wary of all their teachings. What you said is not really the problem for me, but the fact that I run into the same thing everywhere I go, whether on the Internet or in real life. Maybe that's why I reacted the way I did.

The TOG
​

 

[Brother Mike]

All I get is a repeat of the same verses that I've already answered, and accusations of being in/influenced by a cult.

EDITED AS OFF TOPIC, Moderator

However............

Joh_11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh_11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

When sleep is used it = DEAD, as in the body is dead and has no more place under the sun. Ecc told us the spirit of man goes up or goes down, it does not fall asleep but the body has no more place under the sun.

Paul speaking said not all shall sleep (Be dead) but be changed in a twinkle of an eye. Mean those alive on earth will be changes instantly into new bodies. The "DEAD" in Christ Not asleep shall be changed with their new bodies meeting Jesus with those that are left on earth alive.

None of the verses tell us of any Soul sleep because to die Paul said is to be with the Lord. You go to your home "Heaven" and you wait for the last enemy to be defeated and that is death. You new body can't be killed or be subject to any disease.

Rom_13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Sleep is used to be aware, a dead body is no longer aware and has not more part under the sun......Ecc

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

MSG:
1Co 11:30 For this cause a number of you are feeble and ill, and a number are dead.

The Greek word hear means sleep, slumber, or actually dead. It denotes not moving any longer but dead.

Job_32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Zec_12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Our spirit who we are does not sleep. It is what receives knowledge from God, not our heads.

1Pe_3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

The heart of man is not the physical organ but the spirit of man.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Jesus went to hell to preach to the spirits there as they awaited the promise (Heb 11) NO, Jesus did not have to wake them up first............ He brought many back out of the grave which many saw.



Mike.

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=96759]TOG[/MENTION] :

Dear brother,

I am truly sorry for having made you upset. I didn't mean that.
The one who has been influenced by a cult is me myself.

Please forgive me.
Maedchen

I was probably a bit too quick to answer. I do understand that you were in this cult and that's why you are wary of all their teachings. What you said is not really the problem for me, but the fact that I run into the same thing everywhere I go, whether on the Internet or in real life. Maybe that's why I reacted the way I did.

The TOG
​

[MENTION=96759]TOG[/MENTION] :

Oh dear brother,
thank you so much for your kind reply.
You know, I think I know how it feels to be falsely accused. I know that you are only searching for the truth. So did I, and I made my catholic family very upset by arguing with JW's thoughts. So first I was shunned by my own parents and brothers, after leaving the cult, I was shunned by my fellow believers.
It feels unfair. I know. You might feel similar. Even though you have never followed JWs.

I am so happy about your reply!!!
I think some day we'll know how those difficult passages of the Bible were meant.
Don't be sad anymore when people frown over your thoughts. I think that Jesus smiles at you from Heaven, because He wants us to search for the truth.
May He bless you.
Maedchen

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Jesus called us Theos

Did he really? Wasn't this Jesus referencing Psalms 82 where The Father was standing in the "gathering of gods?" This chapter may not be speaking about human beings at all.

Theos........... The Greek Word literally means deity of some origin, and the only thing that makes a deity is immortality.

The Greek Theos, though it can mean something similar is not likely the term used by Jesus. The more likely term is 'El' or 'Elohim'. This word, which we use to get the term 'god' can simple mean powerrful or mighty ones. This was used in reference to Moses by God as Moses was made a powerful one to Pharoah (Exodus 7:1) and we are told that Moses did in fact die. Immortality of deity aren't linked outside of Greek mythology. To the Bible writer the term God was related to power and might as opposed to the lack of mortality. Jesus was a god and he died.

We are created in the image of God, like God and God is immortal. We take on that same form..........when our bodies die, we go somewhere and keep our awareness.

That's not what we read in scripture. In scripture we are told there's no awareness in death. Consider Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:10. We do not keep our awareness, according the scriptures the dead know NOTHING.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? This is the separation of body...... sleep....... dead........... back to dust as opposed to the spirit of man. Some men are like beast and their spirit goes down, those not like beast go up. Not dead, but going somewhere and it's the body that turned to dust and has no more part under the sun, nor does it know anything under the sun.

Solomon didn't say man's spirit/breath goes up. He rhetorocally asked "Who knows if man's breath goes upward, or the breath of cattle goes down to the ground?" after having said that we all (men and beasts) have the same breath/spirit in verse 19. He went on to say in verse 20 that "Everything goes to the same place… it comes from the dust and returns to the dust."
Solomon wrote that it is the same for man as it is for the beast, for in death we all go to the same place. The conclusion drawn by Solomon was listed in verse 22 where he said that "there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot."

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] :

Dear Truth over Tradition, may I ask you then how you understand John 11:25,26 ?
"Jesus said unto her, 'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?'"

Doesn't Jesus say here that those who die in faith in Him will not have to experience what you quoted from Eccles.9:5,10?

 

[Pizzaguy]

That's not what we read in scripture. In scripture we are told there's no awareness in death. Consider Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:10. We do not keep our awareness, according the scriptures the dead know NOTHING.

Cool! No Hell. No eternal Punishment.

You sure make it simple.

 

[JLB]

You either believe what Jesus said or you don't.

It's not that simple JLB. The 1st thing we need to do is try and understand what the writer of Luke implies that Jesus meant in the 16th chapter. Was the subject what happens at death or was the subject matter something entirely different that Jesus used a parable to illustrate?

Then Jesus taught us in detail about Abraham, in Luke 16 and where he was, so we also could know this truth.

Abraham was NOT the subject of Luke 16 or its surrounding context. The overall context tells us that Jesus was addressing the Pharissees whom he had said things like this to:
- ‘You claim to be righteous before men, but God knows [what’s in] your hearts. for, things that are important to men, are disgusting in the eyes of [our] God. (Luke 16:15)
- And Jesus said to them, ‘Didn’t you ever read in the Scriptures, The stone that the builders rejected has become the head of the corner… and it’s a wonderful thing in our eyes? This is why I tell you; The Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that produces its fruit. For, the person who falls on this stone will be shattered, and anyone it falls on will be smashed!’
Now, when the Chief Priests and the Pharisees heard these illustrations, they realized that he was talking about them. (Matthew 21:42-45)
- ‘However, the Sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There they will cry and grind their teeth.’ (Matthew 8:12)

The sons of the kingdom referenced was identified as the Jews and their leaders and it is in light of such discourses between Jesus and these leaders that the Luke 16 passage is written.

You go ahead brother and try and understand what the writer of Luke "implies".

I believe what Jesus said.

I believe Abraham was alive, in the heart of the earth.

I believe Jesus, when He said ; God is the God of the living.


Abraham's Bosom was the place were Abraham and Lazarus were preserved alive.

The rich man was in torment in hell on the other side.

Jesus taught the Pharisee's that the poor Lazarus was blessed and the greedy rich man was not, contrary to their opinion.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Dear brother, may I ask you then how you understand John 11:25,26 ? "Jesus said unto her, 'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?'" Doesn't Jesus say here that those who die in faith in Him will not have to experience what you quoted from Eccles.9:5,10?

I understand John 11 in the light of what Jesus said in chapter 5 and 6 about this very subject. In chp 5 and verse 24 Jesus said that "he who hears what I say and believes in the One that sent me will have age-long life… he won't have to be judged; for, he has come out of the death and into the life". He then goes on to say in verses 28 and 29 that everyone in the tombs will hear his voice and come out; those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced what is foul to a resurrection of judgment. Many surmize that the 'he who hears' what Jesus says party is one and the same with those that will be gifted with a resurrection of life. If that assumption is merited than we can conclude that the resurrected believers shall never have to face death (the 2nd death) that awaits those that do not accept Jesus' rule.

So to sum up my understanding, I'd say the verse you mentioned simply says that those that die as believers will be raised to eternal life by Jesus.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Tot,

So then ALL who have ever died are "sleeping" today?

And no one is "in heaven"? We all "go to heaven" or "go to judgement" at His return?

Do I have that right?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Cool! No Hell. No eternal Punishment. You sure make it simple.

No Hell is cool Pizzaguy!

You seem to be reading more into things than what I said. I stopped where Solomon stopped with what happens to a person at death. I didn't discuss the resurrection and subsequent judgment mentioned by Jesus in John 5 and Hebrews 9:27.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I got much more serious in post 38.