The Trinity: A Third Point of View

[elijah23]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

 

[watchman F]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

Which is the point of view that you most recently realized was out there? From your post it seems like the 3rd view would be your newest, and in reality that is the trinitarian view. The 2nd view you have is a non- trinitarian view called modalism. Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

 

[Mike]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

Which is the point of view that you most recently realized was out there? From your post it seems like the 3rd view would be your newest, and in reality that is the trinitarian view. The 2nd view you have is a non- trinitarian view called modalism. Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

I'm confused with both of you To elijah, your 2 and 3 seem similar to me and might require further definition. The Trinity is three distinct "persons" in one God. Separate, but One. 2 & 3 seem like they could be pointing to this as they are stated (from what I can tell) if by "three responsibilities" someone infers that they are distinct parts.

Watchman when you said,

Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

You've said you don't believe in the Trinity, yet you believe Jesus is God, and of course the Father is God. Does this mean you don't believe the Holy Spirit is God and part of the triune God? Whether yes or no, can you explain?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[elijah23]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

Which is the point of view that you most recently realized was out there? From your post it seems like the 3rd view would be your newest, and in reality that is the trinitarian view. The 2nd view you have is a non- trinitarian view called modalism. Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

I am a United Methodist. The Trinity is not a topic that comes up much in discussions we have, but apparently our church believes in the second view I mentioned. I have no problem with that. I certainly do not believe in #3.

I didn’t know this was such a controversial subject until I joined a Christian forum. I always accepted the Trinity and was surprised to find so many people so passionately deny there is a Trinity.

But it was only recently that I discovered that there are two groups of people who do believe in a Trinity, views #2 and #3 that I mentioned.

By the way, what is your fourth view?

 

[elijah23]

I'm confused with both of you To elijah, your 2 and 3 seem similar to me and might require further definition. The Trinity is three distinct "persons" in one God. Separate, but One. 2 & 3 seem like they could be pointing to this as they are stated (from what I can tell) if by "three responsibilities" someone infers that they are distinct parts.

There is a huge difference between #2 and #3.

#2 states that there is ONE Lord who has the responsibility of being three things at once—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

#3 states there are THREE beings who are united and together are Lord.

My church teaches #2.

 

[watchman F]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

Which is the point of view that you most recently realized was out there? From your post it seems like the 3rd view would be your newest, and in reality that is the trinitarian view. The 2nd view you have is a non- trinitarian view called modalism. Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

I'm confused with both of you To elijah, your 2 and 3 seem similar to me and might require further definition. The Trinity is three distinct "persons" in one God. Separate, but One. 2 & 3 seem like they could be pointing to this as they are stated (from what I can tell) if by "three responsibilities" someone infers that they are distinct parts.

Watchman when you said,
[quote="watchman F":fro5kjid] Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

You've said you don't believe in the Trinity, yet you believe Jesus is God, and of course the Father is God. Does this mean you don't believe the Holy Spirit is God and part of the triune God? Whether yes or no, can you explain?

Thanks,
Mike[/quote:fro5kjid]I believe the Father is God, that Jesus is the man the father became of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that God is. So yes the Father, Son, and Holy spirit are all God but not the way it is taught by trinitarians. IMO

 

[watchman F]

I'm confused with both of you To elijah, your 2 and 3 seem similar to me and might require further definition. The Trinity is three distinct "persons" in one God. Separate, but One. 2 & 3 seem like they could be pointing to this as they are stated (from what I can tell) if by "three responsibilities" someone infers that they are distinct parts.

There is a huge difference between #2 and #3.

#2 states that there is ONE Lord who has the responsibility of being three things at once—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

#3 states there are THREE beings who are united and together are Lord.

My church teaches #2.

The crazy thing is most Trinitarians will say one must believe in the Trinity and declare modalism heresy yet they themselves believe modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly.

Point of view #2 is modalism.

 

[watchman F]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

Which is the point of view that you most recently realized was out there? From your post it seems like the 3rd view would be your newest, and in reality that is the trinitarian view. The 2nd view you have is a non- trinitarian view called modalism. Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

I am a United Methodist. The Trinity is not a topic that comes up much in discussions we have, but apparently our church believes in the second view I mentioned. I have no problem with that. I certainly do not believe in #3.

I didn’t know this was such a controversial subject until I joined a Christian forum. I always accepted the Trinity and was surprised to find so many people so passionately deny there is a Trinity.

But it was only recently that I discovered that there are two groups of people who do believe in a Trinity, views #2 and #3 that I mentioned.

By the way, what is your fourth view?

Trinitarian teach... That there is one God who eternally exist in three persons namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit they are one but separate. One in essence but separate in personhood. The Father is not the Son, or the H.S. The Son is not the Father nor the H.S. and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son yet they are all one God and not three.

Modalist teach.... That there is one God who revealed Himself in three modes or offices. In Creation and the O.T. as the Father in the incarnation as the Son, and now as the Holy Spirit. God is one person but has three functions like a man who is a father, son, and husband.


I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

 

[Free]

I have just realized that there are three points of view—not just two—in the Trinity issue:

1. Some believe there is no Trinity.

2. Some believe that there is one Lord who has three responsibilities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. Some, as I understand it, believe there are three beings who together are God.

Maybe you people already were aware of this.

How is #1 different from #2? Your #1 could refer to a number of beliefs including polytheism, Arianism, and Modalism.

Perhaps you mean the following:

1. Arianism (subordinationism)--Jesus is a created being.
2. Modalism--the one God merely appears in three different modes.
3. Trinitarianism--there are three co-eternal, co-equal persons within the one being that is God.

The Trinity is not a topic that comes up much in discussions we have, but apparently our church believes in the second view I mentioned. I have no problem with that. I certainly do not believe in #3.

I didn’t know this was such a controversial subject until I joined a Christian forum. I always accepted the Trinity and was surprised to find so many people so passionately deny there is a Trinity.

But it was only recently that I discovered that there are two groups of people who do believe in a Trinity, views #2 and #3 that I mentioned.

But #2 isn't the Trinity, it's Modalism. You do not believe in the Trinity.

The crazy thing is most Trinitarians will say one must believe in the Trinity and declare modalism heresy yet they themselves believe modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly.

How so?

I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

That is Modalism, or in the very least a modified Modalism.

 

[watchman F]

The crazy thing is most Trinitarians will say one must believe in the Trinity and declare modalism heresy yet they themselves believe modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly.

How so?

Haven;t you been reading this thread there are two people in this thread that thought they believed in the Trinity who actually believed in modalism.

I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

That is Modalism, or in the very least a modified Modalism.

What I believe it not modalism or modified modalism it is ONENESS. That their is one God the father that became a man the son, and is a Spirit the Holy spirit. This is not what modalist teach. Although I would choose modalism over the three separate beings idea.

 

[Free]

The crazy thing is most Trinitarians will say one must believe in the Trinity and declare modalism heresy yet they themselves believe modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly.

How so?

Haven;t you been reading this thread there are two people in this thread that thought they believed in the Trinity who actually believed in modalism.

Yes, I have read this thread and there is only one person who thinks they believe in the Trinity but doesn't. And your answer does not suffice for the initial comment you made--one person hardly constitutes a "crazy thing" in which "most Trinitarians...believe Modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly."

I believe in the Oneness doctrine, which is neither trinitarian nor modalist The teaching of Oneness is this....

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

That is Modalism, or in the very least a modified Modalism.

What I believe it not modalism or modified modalism it is ONENESS. That their is one God the father that became a man the son, and is a Spirit the Holy spirit. This is not what modalist teach. Although I would choose modalism over the three separate beings idea.

Whether one says God appears in three separate modes at different times or does so all at the same time is largely irrelevant--it's still God appearing in three different modes, hence Modalism.

 

[watchman F]

Haven;t you been reading this thread there are two people in this thread that thought they believed in the Trinity who actually believed in modalism.

Yes, I have read this thread and there is only one person who thinks they believe in the Trinity but doesn't. And your answer does not suffice for the initial comment you made--one person hardly constitutes a "crazy thing" in which "most Trinitarians...believe Modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly."

Actually there has been 4 people who have posted in this thread me you and two other. You seem to know what the teaching of the Trinity is, and also know what it is a disagree. The other 2, 50% of the whole and 66% of the self proclaimed trinitarians not only do not know the true teaching of the Trinity but actually believe modalism. I would say if this thread were a microcosm of the church it would indeed prove my point.

 

[watchman F]

Whether one says God appears in three separate modes at different times or does so all at the same time is largely irrelevant--it's still God appearing in three different modes, hence Modalism.

Nope, you can try to pigeon hole my believe so it can be more easily argued against, but that doesn't make what I believe modalism.

 

[Free]

[quote="watchman F":1kokq8p8]
Haven;t you been reading this thread there are two people in this thread that thought they believed in the Trinity who actually believed in modalism.

Yes, I have read this thread and there is only one person who thinks they believe in the Trinity but doesn't. And your answer does not suffice for the initial comment you made--one person hardly constitutes a "crazy thing" in which "most Trinitarians...believe Modalism over the teaching of the Trinity unknowingly."

Actually there has been 4 people who have posted in this thread me you and two other. You seem to know what the teaching of the Trinity is, and also know what it is a disagree. The other 2, 50% of the whole and 66% of the self proclaimed trinitarians not only do not know the true teaching of the Trinity but actually believe modalism. I would say if this thread were a microcosm of the church it would indeed prove my point.[/quote:1kokq8p8]
I can count, thank you. You said that "there are two people in this thread that thought they believed in the Trinity who actually believed in modalism." I was correcting you in saying that only one is confused about the issue. It isn't you, it isn't mjjcb, and it isn't me.

Whether one says God appears in three separate modes at different times or does so all at the same time is largely irrelevant--it's still God appearing in three different modes, hence Modalism.

Nope, you can try to pigeon hole my believe so it can be more easily argued against, but that doesn't make what I believe modalism.

I'm not trying to pigeon hole anyone and it really isn't that big of a deal, other than it is still error. It certainly doesn't change the how easy it is to argue against. In fact, it's all the same arguments as used against Modalism.

 

[watchman F]

I can count, thank you. You said that "there are two people in this thread that thought they believed in the Trinity who actually believed in modalism." I was correcting you in saying that only one is confused about the issue. It isn't you, it isn't mjjcb, and it isn't me.

I'm confused with both of you To elijah, your 2 and 3 seem similar to me and might require further definition. The Trinity is three distinct "persons" in one God. Separate, but One. 2 & 3 seem like they could be pointing to this as they are stated (from what I can tell) if by "three responsibilities" someone infers that they are distinct parts.

Watchman when you said,

Oddly enough I hold to a fourth view that you haven't mentioned....lol, except maybe under view 1, but most people with that view do not believe that Jesus is God which I most definitely do.

You've said you don't believe in the Trinity, yet you believe Jesus is God, and of course the Father is God. Does this mean you don't believe the Holy Spirit is God and part of the triune God? Whether yes or no, can you explain?

Thanks,
Mike

mjjcb does seem to be able to tell the difference between 2 and 3, and thinks any view that believe Jesus to be God is a trinitarian view.

 

[watchman F]

I'm not trying to pigeon hole anyone and it really isn't that big of a deal, other than it is still error. It certainly doesn't change the how easy it is to argue against. In fact, it's all the same arguments as used against Modalism.

OK, so let me hear your argument against God being one?

 

[Free]

mjjcb does seem to be able to tell the difference between 2 and 3, and thinks any view that believe Jesus to be God is a trinitarian view.

It seems as though he was confused by the wording, as I was at first, not on what the Trinity is. And I certainly don't think he things any view that believes Jesus is God is trinitarian.

OK, so let me hear your argument against God being one?

That's not what this thread is about.

We should stop and let elijah respond and clarify what he means and get clarification on the different positions, which we have adequately stated.

 

[watchman F]

mjjcb does seem to be able to tell the difference between 2 and 3, and thinks any view that believe Jesus to be God is a trinitarian view.

It seems as though he was confused by the wording, as I was at first, not on what the Trinity is. And I certainly don't think he things any view that believes Jesus is God is trinitarian.

OK, so let me hear your argument against God being one?

That's not what this thread is about.

We should stop and let elijah respond and clarify what he means and get clarification on the different positions, which we have adequately stated.

Fair enough

 

[frying-pan-addict]

#2 can be linked with the "Jesus Only" Movement or Oneness Pentecostals. Supposably a man had a vision that Jesus was also the Father and the Holy Spirit. People had to be re-baptized in the name of "Jesus-only" in order to be saved.

I disagree with this viewpoint/movement because we can look at the early church and a similar event took place. I believe it's called Sabellianism or Modelism. The man was condemned as a heretic. hundreds of years later people fall for the same "idea" that hey, maybe The Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are all the same person... manifested in three different ways... Sadly it was condemned by the early church as heresy and people ought to learn the past so that we are not doomed to repeat it.

 

[Mike]

mjjcb does seem to be able to tell the difference between 2 and 3, and thinks any view that believe Jesus to be God is a trinitarian view.

No, no. Either I wasn't clear, or you misinterpreted what I was saying. I didn't say 2 & 3 were the same. I was saying someone who doesn't understand Trinity Doctrine could read the 2 options and not see the difference. Someone could read the way it was worded and think they are the same.

I never said "any view that believes Jesus to be God is a trinitarian view". Maybe it wasn't even you I was thinking about, but I thought it was you who told me that you reject the Trinity - which you've confirmed here. I only asked if you believe Jesus is God, and the Father is God, and you reject the Trinity, are you saying the Holy Spirit isn't God. Maybe you do and you don't consider them 3 distinct persons but one in a single God.

God is One with three separate and distinct persons. They are separate but one within the triune God.