The Trinity

[Tri Unity]

The following creed, considered to be formulated by the Apostles, is the only creed we need to truly agree on (IMO). It is the only creed directly from the scriptures. Although it has left some things out, such as the millennium and hell; it has the prescribed teachings that identify a believer. If you believe in this you cannot go wrong. If you do not believe in this then something is amiss in your faith. Note that the Holy Catholic Church is not talking about the Roman Catholic Church.



The Apostle’s Creed

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.

Amen.

 

[Mike S]

The following creed, considered to be formulated by the Apostles, is the only creed we need to truly agree on (IMO). It is the only creed directly from the scriptures. Although it has left some things out, such as the millennium and hell; it has the prescribed teachings that identify a believer. If you believe in this you cannot go wrong. If you do not believe in this then something is amiss in your faith. Note that the Holy Catholic Church is not talking about the Roman Catholic Church.




The Apostle’s Creed

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.

Amen.

Here, the word catholic is used for it's meaning of "universal."

 

[chakham]

I don't believe I ever said it was.

The issue is that who Jesus is--that he is God Incarnate, yet not the Father--is central to salvation. This much Scripture shows. But as soon as you do that, at least a binity is implied and then questions of the Holy Spirit arise.

I understood the issue to be that knowing Jesus is God incarnate but not the Father is central to salvation.

I think I see my error here. Let me rephrase the question then. How is a trinity or at least the implied binity of God central to salvation? The scriptural examples I gave previously in regards to it not having anything to do with salvation still apply to this question as well.

Hope I got my question right this time.

 

[chakham]

what is the metatron, or to the unisiated to judaism,the angel unto the lord? why does the writings say in joshua that my name is in my angel and do what he says or die? and when the captian unto lord is met and greeted by joshua. joshua bows and gives him worship?
in the gematria these have a number which is traceable to the messiah and another name of the lord.

A metatron is a geek word not found anywhere in scripture. It is derived from folklore and babylonian mysticisim. Sorry too, but I know of gematria, it is simply numerology. What does any of that have to do with torah and the prophets?

As for Joshua. Very little is given about the description of the captain. From what Ive read of him in chapter 5 he was described as a man with a title of captian of Yehovahs army. A few verses down Joshua calls him lord (adoni) which just alludes to him being superior to Joshua but not divine or God.

Based on scripture alone I cannot assertain a very positive identification. However I am very content with the description given. In that he is a man and a captain, he held a sword and Joshua by calling him adoni considered him superior to himself. If you want to make him out to be God or some divine being based on the influence babylon has had on you during your captivity go right ahead.

 

[Free]

The following creed, considered to be formulated by the Apostles, is the only creed we need to truly agree on (IMO). It is the only creed directly from the scriptures. Although it has left some things out, such as the millennium and hell; it has the prescribed teachings that identify a believer. If you believe in this you cannot go wrong. If you do not believe in this then something is amiss in your faith. Note that the Holy Catholic Church is not talking about the Roman Catholic Church.



The Apostle’s Creed

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.

Amen.

While I do agree with it, it doesn't go far enough with it's Christology. Even JW's and Mormons would agree with this. The Nicene Creed is better in this regard, sans Filioque.

 

[Free]

I understood the issue to be that knowing Jesus is God incarnate but not the Father is central to salvation.

I think I see my error here. Let me rephrase the question then. How is a trinity or at least the implied binity of God central to salvation? The scriptural examples I gave previously in regards to it not having anything to do with salvation still apply to this question as well.

Hope I got my question right this time.

My main point is that who Jesus is--that he is God--is central to salvation, not necessarily a binity or trinity, although it becomes difficult to escape once that assertion is made since he is not the Father. It means that one must accept the deity of Jesus but fully understanding a binity or trinity is not necessary.

As for your Scriptural examples, if you mean these:

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, everyone according to his ways, says Yehovah. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so that iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, in which you have transgressed; and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit; for, why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Yehovah; therefore turn, and live."

"If you shall listen to the voice of Yehovah your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the Torah, and if you turn to Yehovah with all your heart, and with all your soul. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not hidden from you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it. See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command you this day to love the Yehovah your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God shall bless you in the land which you are entering to possess." (Deut 30)

These don't have anything to do with salvation. These are words addressed to the Israelites at a certain time for a certain purpose. For what the Bible says about salvation, most of what we need to look at is in the NT:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

That one must believe "in his name" is significant. According to M. R. Vincent, "name" refers to "Expressing the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title."

And we see this in Matt 28:19:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Not that that is necessarily an issue of salvation but we see that in the context of making "disciples of all nations," one is to baptize in the singular name that refers to the three distinct persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And again from M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament:

"In the name (ἐν) has reference to the sphere within which alone true baptism is accomplished. The name is not the mere designation, a sense which would give to the baptismal formula merely the force of a charm. The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy nameâ€), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up. It is equivalent to his person. The finite mind can deal with him only through his name; but his name is of no avail detached from his nature. When one is baptized into the name of the Trinity, he professes to acknowledge and appropriate God in all that he is and in all that he does for man. He recognizes and depends upon God the Father as his Creator and Preserver; receives Jesus Christ as his only Mediator and Redeemer, and his pattern of life; and confesses the Holy Spirit as his Sanctifier and Comforter."


Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)

What is significant here is that in the very context of confessing "Jesus is Lord" for salvation, Paul provides us with a quote from Joel 2:32:

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. (ESV)

But Joel is clearly referring to Yahweh. Of course, in the NT, "Lord" is used of both the Father and the Son, not to mention "lords" or human leaders and masters of men, so there is often ambiguity there. But what Paul has just done is linked confessing "Jesus is Lord" to calling "on the name of the LORD," the name of Yahweh, for salvation. This strongly suggests that one must believe and confess Jesus is Yahweh, or at least the embodiment of Yahweh, God in human flesh, for salvation.

That is also the context of John 1. We see John 1:1-4, 9-10 describing who the Word is, and then in verse 12 John states that those who "believed in his name," that is, in all that that name includes in both nature and character.

And we must also include Acts 2:28 which shows that repentance must take place:

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ESV)


So the NT strongly suggests that salvation is tied directly to belief in who Jesus is. It then becomes necessary to understand who he is based on all that Scripture reveals, and this includes understanding that he is God but not the Father. Yet, we must also understand that, as the Bible suggests from beginning to end, that there is, always has been and always will be, only one God.

 

[Tri Unity]

While I do agree with it, it doesn't go far enough with it's Christology. Even JW's and Mormons would agree with this. The Nicene Creed is better in this regard, sans Filioque.

The Nicene Creed was rejected for the same reasons you say that the Apostle's Creed should be rejected. Even Arians agree with this. So whose opinion should we rely on? Yours? I think not. A creed that says what the bible says is enough. "More than this is from the evil one." (Matthew 5:37)

 

[Free]

The Nicene Creed was rejected for the same reasons you say that the Apostle's Creed should be rejected. Even Arians agree with this. So whose opinion should we rely on? Yours? I think not. A creed that says what the bible says is enough. "Anything more is from the evil one." (John)

Please read what I wrote. I never said I rejected the Apostle's Creed. I agree with everything it states and very much accept it but it simply doesn't state enough about who Christ is. The Nicene Creed states what the Bible says. If you think it doesn't, then please point out where it says something that is not in agreement with the Bible.

 

[Tri Unity]

How is a trinity ...central to salvation?

The trinity is not central to salvation. John the Baptist never knew of this trinity; neither did Moses, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David, etc. They were saved without this knowledge; therefore knowledge of the trinity is not central to salvation. The knowledge of the tri unity comes from being saved; not the other way around. You cannot truly know God unless you are saved; therefore this knowledge is subsequent to salvation. If you need this knowledge as a condition of salvation then why is this not mentioned in scripture? This concept of having God incarnate as central to salvation was introduced by the emperors in the 4th century. It does not belong in the church's teachings.

 

[farouk]

The trinity is not central to salvation. John the Baptist never knew of this trinity; neither did Moses, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David, etc. They were saved without this knowledge; therefore knowledge of the trinity is not central to salvation. The knowledge of the tri unity comes from being saved; not the other way around. You cannot truly know God unless you are saved; therefore this knowledge is subsequent to salvation. If you need this knowledge as a condition of salvation then why is this not mentioned in scripture? This concept of having God incarnate as central to salvation was introduced by the emperors in the 4th century. It does not belong in the church's teachings.

We must remember that before all the Scriptures were given, those who were justified by faith were to be faithful to the limited revelation that had been given. Today, it's hard to think that someone who, having the full revelation of God in Three Persons and Christ's work at the Cross, rejects it in favour of his or her own opinions, and yet should expect salvation without honoring the Savior.

 

[Tri Unity]

Today, it's hard to think that someone who, having the full revelation of God in Three Persons and Christ's work at the Cross, rejects it in favour of his or her own opinions, and yet should expect salvation without honoring the Savior.

No one said anything about rejecting the trinity and expecting salvation. Are you grasping at straws? I don't think we should tattoo the gospel with our own opinions at all.

 

[farouk]

No one said anything about rejecting the trinity and expecting salvation. Are you grasping at straws? I don't think we should tattoo the gospel with our own opinions at all.

Tri Unity:

You said:

'knowledge of the trinity is not central to salvation.'

In fact, if one reads John chapters 13 to 17, we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believer's salvation. Father, Son and Holy Spirit also occur in the Lord Jesus' Great Commission in Matthew 28. John's First Epistle has very searching and central things to say about Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[chakham]

My main point is that who Jesus is--that he is God--is central to salvation, not necessarily a binity or trinity, although it becomes difficult to escape once that assertion is made since he is not the Father. It means that one must accept the deity of Jesus but fully understanding a binity or trinity is not necessary.

Ok sometimes Im a little slow on the uptake. But did you just say I must accept that Jesus is God? I must question this because when I search the scriptures I find that is not the name my God identified himself to Moses or anyone else with. God said his name was Yehovah and that there is no other God but Him.

If you read carefully the words of Jesus he never ever claimed to be God or divine. Quite the contrary he always referred to himself as a man or son of man. But never the Son of God. Others might have but he never did.

John 8:40, "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth which I have heard of God."

These don't have anything to do with salvation. These are words addressed to the Israelites at a certain time for a certain purpose. For what the Bible says about salvation, most of what we need to look at is in the NT:

Once again I find your words contrary to what Yehovah your God said and even Jesus.

"And behold one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God;"

FYI I find that this expression indicates which that Jesus is not God.

Jesus continues,:"If thou desirest spiritual salvation keep the commandments."

An injunction indicating that there is no salvation without the observance of the law of Moses.

He saith unto him, "Which?" Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother, and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Further he said, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that which thou hast and give to the poor."

The same is found in Mark 10:21.

In Luke 18:22, Jesus advises, "Sell all that thou hast and distribute unto the poor," etc. Jesus, in saying there is none good but one, that is God, taught his followers a monotheistic principle.

He also taught them at the same time that salvation depends on the observance of the Divine commandments.

And now you tell me my examples of scripture providing the same encouragment and consequence is not applicable anymore? That the words of Yehovah have nothing to do with salvation? I say they are words of life. It is how you will be judged; if you obey the Kings commandments as we are encouraged to, do we live. Disregard them and follow another doctrine which diminishes those words and you will die. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[chakham]

The trinity is not central to salvation. John the Baptist never knew of this trinity; neither did Moses, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David, etc. They were saved without this knowledge; therefore knowledge of the trinity is not central to salvation. The knowledge of the tri unity comes from being saved; not the other way around. You cannot truly know God unless you are saved; therefore this knowledge is subsequent to salvation. If you need this knowledge as a condition of salvation then why is this not mentioned in scripture? This concept of having God incarnate as central to salvation was introduced by the emperors in the 4th century. It does not belong in the church's teachings.

Forgive me but that doesnt make sense to me. You say Moses, Enoch (the 'metatron' ), Abraham and David were saved without knowing of the trinity (or bi-unity) of God. That knowledge of the trinity comes from being saved. So if they were as you say saved why didnt christianity start with Abraham, Moses, Enoch or David? Why dont we see any indication of this new found knowledge from them in scripture?

 

[Free]

Ok sometimes Im a little slow on the uptake. But did you just say I must accept that Jesus is God? I must question this because when I search the scriptures I find that is not the name my God identified himself to Moses or anyone else with. God said his name was Yehovah and that there is no other God but Him.

That Jesus is God does not contradict that God revealed himself as YHHW nor that there is no other God but him. This is something the doctrine of the Trinity confirms. And yes, the passages I have given show that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

If you read carefully the words of Jesus he never ever claimed to be God or divine. Quite the contrary he always referred to himself as a man or son of man. But never the Son of God. Others might have but he never did.

John 8:40, "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth which I have heard of God."

On the contrary, a careful reading of what Jesus said about himself shows that he did think he was God. The verse you quoted is precisely a part of the problem that I listed in post #20. It in no way means that Jesus isn't also God. This is the tendency of those who deny the Trinity--they post all the passages that speak of Jesus' humanity and then ignore those that speak also of his divinity. We cannot sacrifice one view for the other. They must both be made sense of together.

As for Jesus referring to himself as the Son of God:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."
Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. (ESV)

Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
Joh 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Joh 10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." (ESV)

Joh 11:4 But when Jesus heard it he said, "This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it." (ESV)

Not only do we have Jesus explicitly stating he is the Son of God, any time her refers to "my Father," he is implicitly stating that he is God's Son.

And that there are many more instances of others in the NT stating that Jesus is the Son of God is significant as well. We cannot think that if Jesus didn't say it and only others that it then isn't true. This would completely undermine the inspiration and authority of Scripture.

Once again I find your words contrary to what Yehovah your God said and even Jesus.

"And behold one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God;"

FYI I find that this expression indicates which that Jesus is not God.

On the contrary, Jesus asks a rhetorical question to get the questioner to realize what he has just asked. Jesus is trying to show the questioner that he is God.

Jesus continues,:"If thou desirest spiritual salvation keep the commandments."

An injunction indicating that there is no salvation without the observance of the law of Moses.

He saith unto him, "Which?" Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and thy mother, and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Further he said, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that which thou hast and give to the poor."

The same is found in Mark 10:21.

In Luke 18:22, Jesus advises, "Sell all that thou hast and distribute unto the poor," etc. Jesus, in saying there is none good but one, that is God, taught his followers a monotheistic principle.

He also taught them at the same time that salvation depends on the observance of the Divine commandments.

And now you tell me my examples of scripture providing the same encouragment and consequence is not applicable anymore? That the words of Yehovah have nothing to do with salvation? I say they are words of life. It is how you will be judged; if you obey the Kings commandments as we are encouraged to, do we live. Disregard them and follow another doctrine which diminishes those words and you will die. Pretty cut and dry to me.

The NT is abundantly clear that the Law is finished, it was fulfilled in Christ.

But some take to heart a new testement filled with words of men or creeds of church father and statements of faith.

Ah, this is helpful. Do you not believe the NT is inspired, authoritative Scripture?

 

[Tri Unity]

Tri Unity:

You said: 'knowledge of the trinity is not central to salvation.'

In fact, if one reads John chapters 13 to 17, we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together in the believer's salvation. Father, Son and Holy Spirit also occur in the Lord Jesus' Great Commission in Matthew 28. John's First Epistle has very searching and central things to say about Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I did not say the trinity was to be rejected. Show me where I said that.

Are you twisting my words? I think you are.

 

[Tri Unity]

Forgive me but that doesnt make sense to me. You say Moses, Enoch (the 'metatron' ), Abraham and David were saved without knowing of the trinity (or bi-unity) of God. That knowledge of the trinity comes from being saved. So if they were as you say saved why didnt christianity start with Abraham, Moses, Enoch or David? Why dont we see any indication of this new found knowledge from them in scripture?

God had revealed Himself slowly from Adam down to Christ. None of the Patriarchs had the full revelation that led to a Trinitarian formula. They believed, in general, that God is one (numerically one). When Jesus came and it was announced by the angels that He was the Son of God (Luke 1:35), and John in his Gospel spoke of Him as being the only-begotten Son of God (John 1:18), it was understood (even by the Jews) that this statement of Christ made Him unique above all others, that He was on par, or equal, with God the Father (John 5:18). Note also that while Jesus may not have used the term "Son of God", He did say that God was His Father, which is saying the same thing. (Note also the prophecy in Psalms 2:7 - "the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you." [also 13:33; Heb 1:5; 5:5]) God was slowly revealing His full nature all throughout scripture.

Anyway, this gradual revelation of God was never the essential criteria. The Jews had to believe that "God is one". That was enough for them to be saved. Jesus announced that "the Father and I are one". So the implication of the scriptures which said of God that He is 'one' was also to include Jesus Himself as 'one' with God the Father. This does not mean that our current Trinitarian formula is correct, or it is "required". This teaching came 350 years after Christ died. The first disciples had faith that Jesus was "the Christ", and that faith in His sacrifice absolved us of our sins. They had a very basic faith. It only became complicated 350 years later when the church opened its doors to gnosticism.

The Trinitarian model we use now was first taught by gnostics even before Tertullian used the word Trinity. Valentinius the bishop who turned gnostic was teaching the Trinity before Tertullian:

"Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit..."

That (above quote) was written in the year 360 AD by bishop Marcellus of Ancyra.

So the trinity doctrine has been exposed to corruption. We need to be careful of it. We need to be careful what terms we use to identify the nature of the Godhead. The baptism formula in Matthew 28 was used in baptism, as each new candidate was dunk three times into the water to recognise the three holy names in which we are sealed. This is all good and proper, as it is taught by scripture. It is the extra philosophy they later appended to the doctrine we need to be careful of. Hope this helps you recognise what I have said clearer.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22, 1Peter 1:2)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3; 14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4; 5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

 

[Tri Unity]

The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22, 1Peter 1:2)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3; 14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4; 5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

So how would you summarize the trinity doctrine based on what you have said?

 

[icee]

Some very good discussion here. The best way I have come to describe it is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God the same way we are all man (human). They are of one being the same as we are...human being.

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