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The Trinity

[...] Why and how were they scared of him. [...]

Has any magician in this world stilled storms, feed thousands, healed multitudes, even raised the dead? No, because they did not have the spirit of God inside of them. How could Jesus that walked this earth be an intercessor between humanity and God if God's spirit wasn't in the inside of HIS soul and spirit? That doesn't make sense.

We aren't discussing that point Yah1.

The Holy Spirit was given to Him 'without measure' it says. 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me' Isaiah said.

Now put yourself in the place of these men whose duty it was to arrest Him.

You are going to pick up this guy, with a view to killing Him off, and He probably knew that perfectly well. He could read minds - so He knew exactly what you were coming for.

If He can stop Sandy and Katrina put together with a word, if He could raise the dead, if He could make the blind see and the maimed whole, couldn't this same guy reverse the process?

And blast you with lightning bolts, remove your legs and hands, blind you, and strike you dead? Couldn't He?

And how are you going to arrest such a man, taking your sword or your stick, if He didn't particularly want to be arrested?

I tell you, they were frightened out of their brains. And when He stepped purposefully forward toward poor little you, what happens then?

You jumped back, and the ones in front crashed into the ones behind, so great was their haste to get away. And knocked the guys behind to the ground. I'm sure that all 50 or however many didn't fall over, but a good few certainly did.

So the fact that He said 'I am he' wasn't a magical spell or any such thing. He was simply identifying Himself, so the others could get away without beatings or bloodshed. In fact, He says so.

Have a look at those lists of I AM passages and see how many you think have anything to do with the Divine Name. I can't see a single one, but maybe you can.
 
We aren't discussing that point Yah1.

The Holy Spirit was given to Him 'without measure' it says. 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me' Isaiah said.

Now put yourself in the place of these men whose duty it was to arrest Him.

You are going to pick up this guy, with a view to killing Him off, and He probably knew that perfectly well. He could read minds - so He knew exactly what you were coming for.

If He can stop Sandy and Katrina put together with a word, if He could raise the dead, if He could make the blind see and the maimed whole, couldn't this same guy reverse the process?

And blast you with lightning bolts, remove your legs and hands, blind you, and strike you dead? Couldn't He?

And how are you going to arrest such a man, taking your sword or your stick, if He didn't particularly want to be arrested?

I tell you, they were frightened out of their brains. And when He stepped purposefully forward toward poor little you, what happens then?

You jumped back, and the ones in front crashed into the ones behind, so great was their haste to get away. And knocked the guys behind to the ground. I'm sure that all 50 or however many didn't fall over, but a good few certainly did.

So the fact that He said 'I am he' wasn't a magical spell or any such thing. He was simply identifying Himself, so the others could get away without beatings or bloodshed. In fact, He says so.

Have a look at those lists of I AM passages and see how many you think have anything to do with the Divine Name. I can't see a single one, but maybe you can.

That event was a fulfillment of Old Testament statement, here:

Psalm 40:14
Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

It is a fact that when God confronts, with His Word, the evil in men, that evil is repelled at HIS WORD.

It is a general spiritual principle, and also shown in the event you reference in particular. But the principle is further reaching, across the board.

s
 
Now show, with reasons, which of these passages gives the slightest indication that 'I AM' means the Divine Name.
It doesn't matter how many scripures you throw out there, you can quote the whole Bible if you want. Faith is what makes scriptures come alive in your heart. What is your take on Faith?

The Holy Spirit was given to Him 'without measure' it says. 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me' Isaiah said.
What do you think 'given to Him' means?

You jumped back, and the ones in front crashed into the ones behind, so great was their haste to get away. And knocked the guys behind to the ground. I'm sure that all 50 or however many didn't fall over, but a good few certainly did.

John 18:6 - Notice here it says they went backwards, more than one.

And blast you with lightning bolts, remove your legs and hands, blind you, and strike you dead? Couldn't He?

Remove your legs and hands, lightning bolts, blind you? Hmm..i will keep that open for discussion. Why would they believe he raised the dead and made the blind see if they didn't believe he was God? What evil is coming out of raising the dead and making the blind see? Isn't that giving LIFE to people.

And also, wasn't the curse the result of the devil? Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.

Ezekiel 28:17 & Ezekiel 28:15 Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will. Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness.

If you're more scared of Jesus than the devil, then something is wrong here. I would be more scared of the Devil taking things away from me here on THIS earth than Jesus striking me dead. If Jesus strikes me dead, so be it. I will be with him in Heaven. Matthew 10:28

And how are you going to arrest such a man, taking your sword or your stick, if He didn't particularly want to be arrested?

John 18:11 - First off, Jesus didn't have a sword or stick, it was quite the opposite in fact. The Sword of Jesus was INSIDE of him! Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" If that isn't taking up your cross with obedience to God, then i don't know what is. He was referring to the Cup of His Father's Suffering.

Psalm 40:14 - Yes, they were frightened because of this scripture - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let THEM be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

They were frightened because Jesus WAS God and always will be God.
 
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This is one clear instance of Jesus using the "Divine name" for himself.

You'll have to do a bit better than this Free.

First, why is this an example of the use of the Divine Name, when every other use of 'I AM' is not?

Second, explain with reference to the context, what Jesus does mean by using this very odd phraseology.

Third, why does He say Before Abraham was, I AM. This is grammatically entirely incorrect (if the English translation is to be believed), and makes no sense at all.

If He was claiming to exist before Abraham did, then the proper statement would have been I WAS, and the imperfect tense would have been used.

It is, in fact, the present indicative, which is not appropriate to your construction of His meaning.

So over to you.
 
It doesn't matter how many scripures you throw out there, you can quote the whole Bible if you want.

What an amazing statement! You mean, if the whole Bible says that thre is no such thing as the trinity, you would be prepared to throw it all overboard? Really?

That is arrogance in excelsis. I'm afraid that 'faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God'. So if your faith is such that it can cast out the word of God, then it is worthless, and you really need to examine yourself very carefully indeed.

What do you think 'given to Him' means?
It means that at one point in time He DIDN'T HAVE IT, and it was given later (at His baptism, to be precise).

John 18:6 - Notice here it says they went backwards, more than one.
Sure. So what?

Remove your legs and hands, lightning bolts, blind you? Hmm..i will keep that open for discussion. Why would they believe he raised the dead and made the blind see if they didn't believe he was God? What evil is coming out of raising the dead and making the blind see? Isn't that giving LIFE to people.
They would believe because

a. they all had heard about His deeds and

b. some of them probably had relatives who He had healed and

c. Malchus' ear had been stuck back on. All miracles. That's why.

And also, wasn't the curse the result of the devil? Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.
I don't know what you're talking about.

[...]

If you're more scared of Jesus than the devil, then something is wrong here. I would be more scared of the Devil taking things away from me here on THIS earth than Jesus striking me dead. If Jesus strikes me dead, so be it. I will be with him in Heaven. Matthew 10:28
Don't be silly.

I'm trying to get you to see that every one of those men who came to pick Him up was scared silly - and with good reason. That's why they fell backward, not because He said 'I am the one you want to arrest'.

John 18:11 - First off, Jesus didn't have a sword or stick, it was quite the opposite in fact.
What are you talking about? I said, if you came to get Him with a swrod or a stick, then you would have very good reason to be scared. That's not too hard to understand, is it?

The Sword of Jesus was INSIDE of him! Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" If that isn't taking up your cross with obedience to God, then i don't know what is. He was referring to the Cup of His Father's Suffering.
Pure irrelevance.

Psalm 40:14 - Yes, they were frightened because of this scripture - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let THEM be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

They were frightened because Jesus WAS God and always will be God.
That Psalm was written by David- remember him? He was asking God to drive back his enemies who wished him evil.

Do you really think that makes David God too?
 
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You'll have to do a bit better than this Free.

First, why is this an example of the use of the Divine Name, when every other use of 'I AM' is not?
Every use has to be taken one at a time. It simply is poor reasoning and exegesis to say that since a word means such-and-such in one or more places, that in every instance it must therefore mean the same. That is simply not how languages work and certainly not Koine Greek.

Obviously, most of the verses you gave do not use the divine name:

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

These are no different than Jesus saying "I am going to go to Jerusalem" or "I am hungry." Jesus is simply referring to himself, as we all do everyday.

Asyncritus said:
Second, explain with reference to the context, what Jesus does mean by using this very odd phraseology.
Yes, let's look at the context:

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

First, notice that Jesus contrasts "was" in referring to the existence of Abraham, with "I am" in referring to his own existence. He is clearly contrasting the finite existence of Abraham with his own absolute existence. Second, the Jews picked up stones to stone him with, which is the punishment for blasphemy. The blasphemy here, according to the Jews, is that Jesus claimed to be Yahweh.

Asyncritus said:
Third, why does He say Before Abraham was, I AM. This is grammatically entirely incorrect (if the English translation is to be believed), and makes no sense at all.
lol That's the whole point. It comes across as grammatically incorrect because he is using the divine name. His very point here is that he existed before Abraham because he is the I Am.

Asyncritus said:
If He was claiming to exist before Abraham did, then the proper statement would have been I WAS, and the imperfect tense would have been used.

It is, in fact, the present indicative, which is not appropriate to your construction of His meaning.

So over to you.
Clearly he was claiming to exist before Abraham, but more than mere preexistence. He was claiming timeless, absolute existence.
 
Along with what Free just pointed out...

Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you..."

There's the reason for Jesus saying: "before Abraham was, I AM" instead of "before Abraham was, I was"...Jesus was claiming to be "The Great I AM"...and the Jews knew perfectly well that Jesus was claiming equality with God.

That and (if it's already been mentioned I missed it) Jesus did things which are the prerogatives of God alone:

He made a new covenant with mankind that superseded the covenant given by God on Sinai.

He forgave sins against God.

He accepted worship as God
...Thomas declared: "HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU" Lit "The Lord of me and the God of me"...the greatest blasphemy a Jew could utter (if it were false); and Jesus did not rebuke him but rather commended him.

So then, we are faced with only two options:

1. Jesus is a blasphemer, a liar, and a usurper.

2. Jesus is in fact God.

If Jesus is not God, not only are we in real trouble...but we need to start tearing pages of the bible out from Genesis to Revelation and throw them away.
 
Every use has to be taken one at a time. It simply is poor reasoning and exegesis to say that since a word means such-and-such in one or more places, that in every instance it must therefore mean the same. That is simply not how languages work and certainly not Koine Greek.

Perhaps not.

But you need excellent reason before you can randomly say 'I AM' means 'I WAS', or 'I USED TO BE' or 'I ALWAYS EXISTED'.

That is a far too drastic and unwarranted revision of language, and apart from theological pre-conception, you have no linguistic grounds for making such a wild statement.

Perhaps you can show us where else in the NT or even in secular Greek I AM can be construed to have any one of those three meanings.

You could not present such a case to any reasonable court in a case of contract ot other law. You would be laughed to scorn. Don't do that to yourself here.

Obviously, most of the verses you gave do not use the divine name:

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

These are no different than Jesus saying "I am going to go to Jerusalem" or "I am hungry." Jesus is simply referring to himself, as we all do everyday

Quite correct, and in full support of my POV.

Yes, let's look at the context:

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

Now here's a strange thing. You are saying that Jesus existed before Abraham did, if I understand you correctly.

Therefore, the statement that Jesus makes is completely wrong.

It should have been, A. rejoiced that he has been seeing my day, and would continue to do so.

But that is not the case at all. Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. In other words, Jesus' Day had not yet come.

So when is Jesus' Day? Since Abraham is dead, then he would have to come back to life in order to see Jesus' Day. Therefore, that Day is the Day of the Lord, the Day of Resurrection, in other words.
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"

They are as confused as you are, I think. He didn't say that He had seen Abraham. He said A. rejoiced TO SEE His day. A totally different proposition.

They, however, are making strenuous efforts to misinterpret His words in such a way as would justify the charge of blasphemy, and I'm afraid your interpretation joins hands with theirs.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

So what was he saying exactly?

If the I AM is really the Divine Name, then why use it here?

The reason is not far to seek.

Remember A. would have to be resurrected in order to see Jesus' Day. Now remember these words:

Mat.22.31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

There is the I AM He was referring to.

It has nothing to do with the Divine Name (which, BTW is NOT I am), but it has everything to do with the promise of the Resurrection to eternal life which A. will experience at the Great Day of resurrection. No wonder he rejoiced.

In the direct context of that chapter, we see Jesus threatening them with either no resurrection at all for them, or resurrection to damnation. Resurrection is everywhere in this chapter.

21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he [= the Messiah], ye shall die in your sins.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man [i.e. crucified me], then shall ye know that I am he [because God will raise me up from the dead], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

[Now note how many times He expressly disclaims any equality with God]

38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

First, notice that Jesus contrasts "was" in referring to the existence of Abraham, with "I am" in referring to his own existence. He is clearly contrasting the finite existence of Abraham with his own absolute existence. Second, the Jews picked up stones to stone him with, which is the punishment for blasphemy. The blasphemy here, according to the Jews, is that Jesus claimed to be Yahweh.

No, the blasphemy is that He said that God was His Father. That's what got up their noses.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You will have noticed how many times the Fatherhood of God has come up in this fight. That's the point at issue, and they are going at Him hammer and tongs. He in His turn is speaking very obscurely in order to get them going, and they do.

lol That's the whole point. It comes across as grammatically incorrect because he is using the divine name. His very point here is that he existed before Abraham because he is the I Am.

As you've now seen, that is hopelessly deficient expositorily, as shown above.

Clearly he was claiming to exist before Abraham, but more than mere preexistence. He was claiming timeless, absolute existence.

This is incredible, that you should make such a serious mistake, and align yourself with the Jews who were completely flummoxed by the deliberate obscurity of His remarks.
 
If Jesus is not God, not only are we in real trouble...but we need to start tearing pages of the bible out from Genesis to Revelation and throw them away.

mcgyver, finally. where have you been all this time. :)
 
Perhaps not.

But you need excellent reason before you can randomly say 'I AM' means 'I WAS', or 'I USED TO BE' or 'I ALWAYS EXISTED'.

That is a far too drastic and unwarranted revision of language, and apart from theological pre-conception, you have no linguistic grounds for making such a wild statement.

Perhaps you can show us where else in the NT or even in secular Greek I AM can be construed to have any one of those three meanings.
I will, later.

Asyncritus said:
You could not present such a case to any reasonable court in a case of contract ot other law. You would be laughed to scorn. Don't do that to yourself here.
You have given zero evidence for your assertions and I have at least given some. I don't have my resources with me but I will show you how it all works.

Asyncritus said:
Quite correct, and in full support of my POV.
Of course it is but you are still in error in arguing that all instances mean the same thing. And again, you have given zero evidence for that.

Asyncritus said:
Now here's a strange thing. You are saying that Jesus existed before Abraham did, if I understand you correctly.

Therefore, the statement that Jesus makes is completely wrong.

It should have been, A. rejoiced that he has been seeing my day, and would continue to do so.

But that is not the case at all. Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. In other words, Jesus' Day had not yet come.

So when is Jesus' Day? Since Abraham is dead, then he would have to come back to life in order to see Jesus' Day. Therefore, that Day is the Day of the Lord, the Day of Resurrection, in other words.
First, you provide no reason as to why, according to an argument I can't follow, that "It should have been, A. rejoiced that he has been seeing my day, and would continue to do so." On what basis should it have said that? Second, what you seem to completely ignore here is the rest of that verse: "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

Not to mention a verse that you post below:

Mat 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." (ESV)

So you have to answer the same questions then.

Luk 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. (ESV)

Does that not speak of at least one way in which it could be said that Abraham saw Jesus' day?

Asyncritus said:
They are as confused as you are, I think. He didn't say that He had seen Abraham. He said A. rejoiced TO SEE His day. A totally different proposition.

They, however, are making strenuous efforts to misinterpret His words in such a way as would justify the charge of blasphemy, and I'm afraid your interpretation joins hands with theirs.
I'm not the one who is confused. Did the Jews twist his words? Yes. Does that mean they are wrong about the charge of blasphemy, that is, they didn't understand that Jesus claimed to be God? No, not at all.

You have confused the order of events but this is how it all goes:

1. Jesus claims that Abraham saw Jesus' day (whatever that means).
2. The Jews twist that and ask Jesus if he has actually seen Abraham.
3. Jesus responds to that question by making a very clear statement contrasting the "was" of Abraham's existence, with the "I am" of his own existence.
4. The Jews understand Jesus' claim to be the I Am and want to stone him, likely for blasphemy.

Asyncritus said:
So what was he saying exactly?

If the I AM is really the Divine Name, then why use it here?

The reason is not far to seek.

Remember A. would have to be resurrected in order to see Jesus' Day. Now remember these words:

Mat.22.31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

There is the I AM He was referring to.

It has nothing to do with the Divine Name (which, BTW is NOT I am), but it has everything to do with the promise of the Resurrection to eternal life which A. will experience at the Great Day of resurrection. No wonder he rejoiced.

In the direct context of that chapter, we see Jesus threatening them with either no resurrection at all for them, or resurrection to damnation. Resurrection is everywhere in this chapter.

21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he [= the Messiah], ye shall die in your sins.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man [i.e. crucified me], then shall ye know that I am he [because God will raise me up from the dead], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

[Now note how many times He expressly disclaims any equality with God]

38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)
This is such a stretch I don't even know how to address it.

Asyncritus said:
No, the blasphemy is that He said that God was His Father. That's what got up their noses.
Not in this case. In this case he claimed to be the I Am. He claimed to be God. Unless you want to show where in John 8:58 did he say that God was his Father.

Asyncritus said:
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You will have noticed how many times the Fatherhood of God has come up in this fight. That's the point at issue, and they are going at Him hammer and tongs. He in His turn is speaking very obscurely in order to get them going, and they do.
In this case he claimed that God was his Father, making himself equal to God. Do not use this to force an interpretation on John 8:58.

Asyncritus said:
As you've now seen, that is hopelessly deficient expositorily, as shown above.
No at all. You've shown nothing other than an amazing ability to use Scriptures that don't apply to make a passage say something other than what a plain reading gives.

Asyncritus said:
This is incredible, that you should make such a serious mistake, and align yourself with the Jews who were completely flummoxed by the deliberate obscurity of His remarks.
One, it is no mistake. Two, you are confused on the order of events, as I have shown above.
 
Does anyone really get The Trinity? Whenever I ask people, I get John 1:1 quotes and a bunch of sort of disconnected thoughts.

And yeah I've heard all the stuff like I am my father's son, my daughter's father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

This is a hard concept to grasp. what we do know is that God, The Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are distinct. That is evident at the Baptism of Jesus when Jesus is in the water, God is speaking from heaven, and the Holy Spirit is descending on Jesus (Luke 3:21-21). In Genesis when God says let "us" make man in "our" image who is the "us" and "our" he is referring to? Some believe its angels, but we aren't made in the image of angels but in the image of God. It would seem that the "us" and "our" refers to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. So, again it would appear to show a distinction here. That being said, John 1 declares that The Word (Jesus) is God. That truth is declared by Jesus when He says that He and the Father are one (John 10:30) and when He says "whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). This prophesy of Jesus' birth reaffirms this as well: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). So, it would seem the Scripture is clear that God and Jesus are one. One more Scripture to show that the Holy Spirit is one with the Father and Jesus: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (I John 5:7).

So it would seem the Bible is perfectly clear that there are three but these three are one. Although they are distinct, they never act, or speak out of harmony with one another. They always speak and act in perfect unison. The three are one and that one is God. Ok, now my brain is hurting.
 
I hope it's somewhat clear that the Deity of Christ is one bit of the assertions that make up Trinitarian doctrine.

-> Some accept Christ's Deity on different terms than Trinitarian.
-> Jesus found blasphemy of the Spirit to be a greater sin than attacks against Him: a chilling comparison in all aspects.
 
Its quite clear from scripture that the fullness of the deity exists in Christ Jesus. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge etc... (All that the Father is) As Paul wrote the, "image of the invisible God".

So yes Jesus is God in this context (all that the Father is)

The question is did Jesus always have this "Glory" as a God who always was or was that Glory, (a place on the Fathers throne and all that the Father is), given to Him and if such glory was given why the need if Jesus always had such Glory. "Always was and always was God" Also such theology must incorporate "One God" "No God formed before the Father no God formed after the Father"

Jesus Himself places Himself before Genesis "Father return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"

John and Hebrews shows Jesus at that beginning and one who is God. Jesus and God show that the Father is Jesus's God. Hebrews "...therefore God YOUR God..." Hebrews 1:9

Scripture states Jesus had a hand in what the Father created by the Fathers command and at the Fathers will. Not the other way around, that is Jesus did what He wanted to do. 1 Cor 8:6 Rev 4:11

I am not going to debate further what I state, but this is my premise from what I read in scripture.

Is Jesus God?
Like this thread Jesus never dies.
Yes, Jesus is all that the Father is.
No, Jesus has always been the Son.

I would also add the Son (firstborn of all creation) has never existed apart from the fullness of the deity that was pleased to dwell IN Him. Jesus and the Father are One in that context.


Scripture also shows Jesus as the "One and Only" as in One Lord. To me that states the Father will never share His fullness with another. One God One Lord One Spirit (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

Randy
 
It's really curious to see how often, the 'firstborn' of all creation comes up in this discussion. Or perhaps not.

Is it beyond the wit of you intelligent folks out there to ask a simple question?

If Jesus was the firstBORN of all creation, then who was His mother, and who was His Father?

Jesus Himself places Himself before Genesis "Father return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"
Incidentally, Paul puts us right there too:

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

More than that, John says:

Rev 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So not only was Jesus there 'before the foundation of the world', He was killed from the foundation of the world'.

And if He was, then how come He was living enough to be born of Mary?

How's that, I wonder? Any ideas?
 
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Thinking about it, that last point above is a most serious one indeed.

If Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then Abraham couldn't have known Him.

NO-ONE could have known Him.

And He couldn't have been born of Mary, or anyone else for that matter.

You guys have some serious explaining to do about this one.

'What is the foundation of the world John and Paul are talking about?
 
It's really curious to see how often, the 'firstborn' of all creation comes up in this discussion. Or perhaps not.

Is it beyond the wit of you intelligent folks out there to ask a simple question?

If Jesus was the firstBORN of all creation, then who was His mother, and who was His Father?
This point has been addressed more than once so there is no need to address it again. Needless to say, you have no argument.

Asyncritus said:
Incidentally, Paul puts us right there too:

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

More than that, John says:

Rev 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So not only was Jesus there 'before the foundation of the world', He was killed from the foundation of the world'.

And if He was, then how come He was living enough to be born of Mary?

How's that, I wonder? Any ideas?
Asyncritus said:
Thinking about it, that last point above is a most serious one indeed.

If Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then Abraham couldn't have known Him.

NO-ONE could have known Him.

And He couldn't have been born of Mary, or anyone else for that matter.

You guys have some serious explaining to do about this one.

'What is the foundation of the world John and Paul are talking about?
It's interesting how so many of your arguments against those who disagree with you also pertain to you. You must answer the same things. But it really is moot since it has little, if anything, to do with the topic.

Most likely these passages are just referring to the predestination of such events.
 
This point has been addressed more than once so there is no need to address it again. Needless to say, you have no argument.

Needless to say, it's obvious you have no answer.

It's interesting how so many of your arguments against those who disagree with you also pertain to you. You must answer the same things. But it really is moot since it has little, if anything, to do with the topic.

That was not Randy's opinion. He uses the passage as confirming his belief that Jesus existed before the world began. That's a trinitarian POV. I take it that you agree with his POV?

Most likely these passages are just referring to the predestination of such events.

So the passage in Jn 17, is also referring to the predestination of Jesus' glory with the Father? And not to His pre-existence?
 
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