The Trinity

[for_his_glory]

The Word of GOD existed; the man Jesus did not.

You might want to study the full context of these scriptures to understand the Deity of Christ as He and the Father are one in the same.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Free]

It does work as the Word changed to/ became man and had need of all things man has need of.

Became man but also remained God, since God cannot cease to be God. Jesus claimed to be God, was worshipped by his disciples on several occasions, without rebuke, and Thomas said Jesus was his Lord and his God, again without rebuke.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is your prerogative to believe in your doctrine.
I follow what Jesus says.

Jesus never claimed Himself God. He claims His Father is His God.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Power_on_HIgh]

I'm not sure what your contending here exactly. Could you break it down for me please?

Sure.

There is the pre-incarnate Word, who "Was God"...John 1

Who is "God manifested in the Flesh".. (Jesus the Virgin Born (God Man)

And He, (Jesus) created the world... John 1:10

Colossians 1:16

He is the same who didn't correct Thomas when Thomas said... "My Lord and my God".
And the reason that Jesus didn't correct Thomas is... why would God correct the Truth.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You might want to study the full context of these scriptures to understand the Deity of Christ as He and the Father are one in the same.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

Indeed the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of GOD are one and the same.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Became man but also remained God, since God cannot cease to be God. Jesus claimed to be God, was worshipped by his disciples on several occasions, without rebuke, and Thomas said Jesus was his Lord and his God, again without rebuke.

GOD didn't cease being GOD due to sending HIS Word and Light out into the world.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Sure.

There is the pre-incarnate Word, who "Was God"...John 1

Who is "God manifested in the Flesh".. (Jesus the Virgin Born (God Man)

And He, (Jesus) created the world... John 1:10

Colossians 1:16

He is the same who didn't correct Thomas when Thomas said... "My Lord and my God".
And the reason that Jesus didn't correct Thomas is... why would God correct the Truth.

I agree with every bit of that unless you are conflating the temporal physical vessel with the eternal Spirit of GOD within HIS Holy Temple.

 

[Power_on_HIgh]

I agree with every bit of that unless you are conflating the temporal physical vessel with the eternal Spirit of GOD within HIS Holy Temple.

All the born again are the "temple of the Holy Spirit".

Jesus is "God became a man".

God became One of us to save all of us.

Jesus is God wrapped in Human flesh, born of a Virgin.

Notice :

"Let us create man in our image"

"US.....and .....Our'.

Notice this now..

Jesus said... "I am from ABOVE, and you are from BELOW"

See that?

= "US....and....OUR. = John 1

 

[Free]

GOD didn't cease being GOD due to sending HIS Word and Light out into the world.

God incarnate doesn't cease being God. The Son of God in human flesh didn't cease being God just because he "took on the form of a servant." You're essentially arguing that God can divest himself of his nature, which is impossible.

 

[popsthebuilder]

God incarnate doesn't cease being God. The Son of God in human flesh didn't cease being God just because he "took on the form of a servant." You're essentially arguing that God can divest himself of his nature, which is impossible.

Nothing is impossible for GOD. If the bible says a manifestation was a man then I believe that. If it says GOD can't be tempted but that Jesus was tempted, well; I believe that too.

What do you do with verses saying he set aside his glory and power, and other verses saying He received or asked GOD to return those ings to Him. You don't to answer.

 

[Free]

Nothing is impossible for GOD.

That is biblically and logically not true. It is impossible for God to lie (Num 23:19; Heb 6:18). He cannot deny himself (2 Tim 2:13). In other words, it is impossible for God to go against his nature, and that includes the logically impossible.

As C.S. Lewis said, in response to the irrational question about God being able to make a rock too heavy for him to lift: nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God.

If the bible says a manifestation was a man then I believe that. If it says GOD can't be tempted but that Jesus was tempted, well; I believe that too.

He was both God and man. That Jesus was tempted in no way means that he wasn’t also God. The unanswerable question is, did he feel tempted, did he feel like giving in, or did he just feel the weight of being tempted?

What do you do with verses saying he set aside his glory and power, and other verses saying He received or asked GOD to return those ings to Him. You don't to answer.

Give me the verses and we’ll discuss them.

 

[popsthebuilder]

That is biblically and logically not true. It is impossible for God to lie (Num 23:19; Heb 6:18). He cannot deny himself (2 Tim 2:13). In other words, it is impossible for God to go against his nature, and that includes the logically impossible.

As C.S. Lewis said, in response to the irrational question about God being able to make a rock too heavy for him to lift: nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God.


He was both God and man. That Jesus was tempted in no way means that he wasn’t also God. The unanswerable question is, did he feel tempted, did he feel like giving in, or did he just feel the weight of being tempted?


Give me the verses and we’ll discuss them.

It's a given that GOD cannot do that which the bible says that GOD cannot do. That was implied as understood I thought.

Jesus asks the FATHER that He might receive back that which He had with the FATHER.

John 17:1-8 , with emphasis on verse 5.

Uhm...GOD cannot be tempted. We just went over what GOD cannot do.

As far as the Word setting aside HIS power and glory upon becoming man; we see the following verses.

Philippians 2:5-11

I look forward to your response.

 

[Free]

It's a given that GOD cannot do that which the bible says that GOD cannot do. That was implied as understood I thought.

Some people don't understand that. But, God also cannot do anything that goes against his nature, which includes that which is logically impossible.

Jesus asks the FATHER that He might receive back that which He had with the FATHER.

John 17:1-8 , with emphasis on verse 5.

Yes, Jesus asks the Father to "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Firstly, I've already pointed out this verse to show that the Son existed before creation. That would be eternal preexistence. Secondly, Jesus, as the God-man, is asking the Father to glorify him again. Jesus laid down his glory in becoming human, but that does not mean he ceased to be deity. Again, that is simply not possible.

Uhm...GOD cannot be tempted. We just went over what GOD cannot do.

Firstly, whatever the verse is saying, it is not a proof that Jesus cannot be God. That would be to take it out context from the rest of the NT. Secondly, God is holy, so of course he cannot be tempted by evil. Thirdly, "to be tempted" can mean either a person tempting someone else or a person feeling tempted by something or someone else. You seem to be arguing that because Jesus was tempted by Satan that Jesus was actually feeling tempted to act sinfully. But that conclusion doesn't follow. However, since Jesus was both God and man, there could have been some fleshly desire to give in to the temptations and so actually feel tempted to sin. But that is an unanswerable question.

Suffice to say, James 1:13 has no bearing on the issue of Jesus's deity.

As far as the Word setting aside HIS power and glory upon becoming man; we see the following verses.

Philippians 2:5-11

I look forward to your response.

I've already posted about this on page 17, post #323. Here it is again:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

Some important points to note about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--"the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, he did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself. Firstly then, it was he who did the emptying. And, secondly, he emptied himself of something. That is, there is something that he emptied himself of something that was necessary in the taking on of the human form. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind. Whatever Paul means here, and we must always be careful to not say more or less than what the Bible says, Jesus, as God Incarnate, still maintains his full deity in becoming truly and fully human.
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. Paul is contrasting Jesus's "being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God."
5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."

The whole point of this passage is to show the humility of Christ, which we are to have (verses 1-5). There is no greater example of humility that could be conceived than that of God (the Son) coming to earth and taking on the form of one of his creatures.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Some people don't understand that. But, God also cannot do anything that goes against his nature, which includes that which is logically impossible.


Yes, Jesus asks the Father to "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Firstly, I've already pointed out this verse to show that the Son existed before creation. That would be eternal preexistence. Secondly, Jesus, as the God-man, is asking the Father to glorify him again. Jesus laid down his glory in becoming human, but that does not mean he ceased to be deity. Again, that is simply not possible.


Firstly, whatever the verse is saying, it is not a proof that Jesus cannot be God. That would be to take it out context from the rest of the NT. Secondly, God is holy, so of course he cannot be tempted by evil. Thirdly, "to be tempted" can mean either a person tempting someone else or a person feeling tempted by something or someone else. You seem to be arguing that because Jesus was tempted by Satan that Jesus was actually feeling tempted to act sinfully. But that conclusion doesn't follow. However, since Jesus was both God and man, there could have been some fleshly desire to give in to the temptations and so actually feel tempted to sin. But that is an unanswerable question.

Suffice to say, James 1:13 has no bearing on the issue of Jesus's deity.


I've already posted about this on page 17, post #323. Here it is again:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

Some important points to note about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--"the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, he did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself. Firstly then, it was he who did the emptying. And, secondly, he emptied himself of something. That is, there is something that he emptied himself of something that was necessary in the taking on of the human form. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind. Whatever Paul means here, and we must always be careful to not say more or less than what the Bible says, Jesus, as God Incarnate, still maintains his full deity in becoming truly and fully human.
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. Paul is contrasting Jesus's "being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God."
5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."

The whole point of this passage is to show the humility of Christ, which we are to have (verses 1-5). There is no greater example of humility that could be conceived than that of God (the Son) coming to earth and taking on the form of one of his creatures.

I can see this is going nowhere. You won't be considering anything anyone says except to argue based on traditional tired argument trinnys have been using for a long long time. You've addressed nothing yet again. Not doing this with moderation. Thanks for your time.

 

[popsthebuilder]

If Jesus was fully man and fully GOD then not only would he have been all knowing and all powerful, but he would have also been 200% being. And his own blood payment.

 

[Free]

I can see this is going nowhere.

So, because I don't automatically agree with you and instead challenge your thinking, you give up?

You won't be considering anything anyone says

I consider what everyone says, but I also address it with what I believe is a better understanding. Is that not precisely how we learn and come to a knowledge of the truth? Unfortunately, most of the time, it isn't reciprocated and anti-Trinitarians simply keep repeating what they've already said or just give up, rather than grappling with the arguments. Anyone who does this shows that they aren't actually interested in the Truth. Anti-Trinitarians almost always do this to avoid answering the things which prove difficult for their position and it seems to me to be the reason why they are anti-Trinitarian.

except to argue based on traditional tired argument trinnys have been using for a long long time.

And, yet, you haven't shown that you understand the arguments, never mind have a response to them.

You've addressed nothing yet again.

I very clearly fully addressed what you said.

Not doing this with moderation.

What moderation?

If Jesus was fully man and fully GOD then not only would he have been all knowing and all powerful,

He was truly God and truly man, but you're once again ignoring what is stated in Phil 2:5-8.

but he would have also been 200% being.

Why do anit-Trinitarians think that "math" disproves the deity of Jesus or the Trinity? This is a theological and philosophical issue, not a mathematical one.

And his own blood payment.

He was without sin (Heb 4:15) and didn't need any "blood payment." If he was sinful, he wouldn't have been a "blood payment" for anyone, let alone himself. If he isn't God in human flesh, if he is a mere creature, there is no salvation.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So, because I don't automatically agree with you and instead challenge your thinking, you give up?


I consider what everyone says, but I also address it with what I believe is a better understanding. Is that not precisely how we learn and come to a knowledge of the truth? Unfortunately, most of the time, it isn't reciprocated and anti-Trinitarians simply keep repeating what they've already said or just give up, rather than grappling with the arguments. Anyone who does this shows that they aren't actually interested in the Truth. Anti-Trinitarians almost always do this to avoid answering the things which prove difficult for their position and it seems to me to be the reason why they are anti-Trinitarian.


And, yet, you haven't shown that you understand the arguments, never mind have a response to them.


I very clearly fully addressed what you said.


What moderation?


He was truly God and truly man, but you're once again ignoring what is stated in Phil 2:5-8.


Why do anit-Trinitarians think that "math" disproves the deity of Jesus or the Trinity? This is a theological and philosophical issue, not a mathematical one.

GOD is not a god of confusion. What I believe can be understood by a child and is sound. The doctrine of the Trinity is not sound in the least and can lead to very significant misdirection and atrocity. You claim things are red herrings when in reality we are told we will know them by their fruits; if you don't appreciate logic then there isn't any reason to even try to debate or argue or converse about different perspectives.

He was without sin (Heb 4:15) and didn't need any "blood payment." If he was sinful, he wouldn't have been a "blood payment" for anyone, let alone himself. If he isn't God in human flesh, if he is a mere creature, there is no salvation.

Most of that makes little sense. And no one said Jesus was just some creature.

You can keep your insults to yourself. I have given up nothing. I choose to try to stop prior to the conversation getting any uglier. My points stand and most where ignored. Those not; barely challenges from this vantage.

 

[grace2]

That is after "The Word was God' became a man.

You need to realize that Jesus is the MAN.
He was not this , pre-incarnate as the "Word was God". John 1

Jesus has been the Son of God and Holy Servant from the beginning.

He speaks everything to please His Father, the God.

He was sent to be God's messenger.

 

[Free]

GOD is not a god of confusion. What I believe can be understood by a child and is sound.

God is not a God of confusion, but that doesn't mean he is so simple to as be able to be fully comprehend by the human mind. If your finite mind can fully comprehend God, then he cannot be the God of the Bible. The nature of God is ultimately fully incomprehensible, as seen in those things that he deemed necessary or simply decided to reveal.

This is what he has revealed and we have to make sense of:

1. There was, is, and ever will be only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son, the preincarnate Word, is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a person and is God.
5. The Father is not the Son and neither are the Holy Spirit.

The best explanation is that all three persons share in the one substance or essence that is God and are coequal and coeternal. The Father begets, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not sound in the least and can lead to very significant misdirection and atrocity.

The doctrine of the Trinity is very sound and best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in the Bible. Complexity does not determine whether a belief is sound. Any belief can lead to misdirection and atrocity, because people will be people.

You claim things are red herrings when in reality we are told we will know them by their fruits; if you don't appreciate logic then there isn't any reason to even try to debate or argue or converse about different perspectives.

They have nothing to do with the biblical truth of the matter. That is the point. Christianity became highly politicized and was used to try and unite Roman Empire. To try and pin it on one belief alone is much too simplistic. And, different factions killed each other because that is just what sinful people do sometimes:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/his...rs/persecutions-under-the-arian-heretics.html

Most of that makes little sense. And no one said Jesus was just some creature.

Then who or what was he and is he? If he wasn't or isn't God, then by definition, he was created and is a creature.

You can keep your insults to yourself. I have given up nothing. I choose to try to stop prior to the conversation getting any uglier. My points stand and most where ignored.

I intend no insults; I'm just stating the facts of the discussion. None of your points stand, as evidenced by your refusal to even attempt addressing my rebuttals or other points I have made. I have addressed most, if not all, of them.

Those not; barely challenges from this vantage.

Is that why you haven't even tried to rebut any of them?

 

[Power_on_HIgh]

Jesus has been the Son of God and Holy Servant

Pre-incarnate Jesus was not a 'servant" in Heaven.

He was this... "The Word was God".

Notice this verse.

"Let US.... make man....in OUR image'.

See that Us and OUR ?
That is God and the Word. John 1