The Trinity
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Never said that I could wholly comprehend the nature of GOD almighty.
The doctrines I believe take all of scripture into account. If you think it does not then ask me something.
You quoted it in your previous response… Did you even read what you quoted?
John 1
"Jesus" was not in heaven, in the beginning.
He became Jesus, when He was virgin born as a human and they named Him "Jesus".
Prior to this, He was Pre-Incarnate, as "The Word was God".... and "Let US....make man in OUR Image".
His birth occurred on Earth.
Jesus said to you and me...
= "I am from above, you are from below... You are of this world, i am not of this world".
Jesus is the "Bread come down from Heaven".
He was UP THERE, with GOD, ... John 1.... before He was born as a virgin born man, down here, named "Emmanuel"... = GOD with us.. "Jesus"
Of course, Jesus is from above.
God created the whole universe and everything else including Jesus.
So you getting off the course and off-topic.
good day.
No, it very much has to do with the topic. When Jesus said that he is from above, look at what he says immediately following (as I have previously pointed out):
Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NASB)
Note that "He" is italicized because it isn't in the Greek. Just a little bit later, Jesus says:
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Joh 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. (NASB)
First, Jesus says "I am from above" and "I am not of this world." Then, he says that "unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins." Note that "therefore" links what he says in verse 23 to what he says in verse 24. That is, what he says in verse 24 is based on his claims in verse 23 and form a unified thought. He is the I Am, which is why he said he was "from above" and "not of this world," and on that basis, it is necessary to believe that in order to not "die in your sins."
Of course he clearly repeats his assertion that he is the I Am in verse 58, for which the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy.
Can you provide one verse that shows Jesus was created? Would I be correct in assuming that you believe Jesus was the archangel Michael prior to his birth on earth?
Of course, Jesus is from above, I am not denying anything you quoted.
None of us humans are from above, only Jesus was sent by His Father to the earth.
So Jesus was a Man but He was still from the above because His Father sent Him to us.
Why do you ignore the context I've given? And, again, can you provide one verse that shows Jesus was created? Would I be correct in assuming that you believe Jesus was the archangel Michael prior to his birth on earth?
Those are three questions for which I would like three clear, direct answers, please.
Your questions all answered in these verses:
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[c][d]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
Proverbs 8:22-31
Jesus was depicted in many ways. So if one claims Michal is Jesus, there is no reason to reject it.
Michael did everything that Jesus would not have done.
BTW, I make it clear I don't practice everything that JWs do. I don't agree with many of the things they practice.
Again, you asked and I answered.
Just because you dont like what I have to say does not mean I did not answer your questions.
That's all I was asking for. Of course I do disagree and don't think that Proverbs 8 is speaking of Jesus at all. Verse 22 can also be translated as "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old" (ESV), rather than being created or "brought forth" as some translations have.
I prefer to stick to texts that are much clearer, such as John 1:1-3, John 8:23-24, 58, Rom 10:9-13, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:10-12. Those unequivocally refer to Jesus as God, even with Jesus himself claiming to be God. As for Michael being Jesus, there is every reason to reject it since 1) there is no verse in the Bible that says so, and 2) there are many verses saying Jesus is God. But, if you don't believe it, then the point is moot and we agree.
Heb 1:10-12 is interesting though:
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)
That is a quote from Psalms 102:
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)
Who is Pslams 102 talking about? God, Yahweh.
Who is Heb 1:10-12 talking about? The Son (1:8). Who is speaking in Heb 1:10-12? God, the Father (1:5).
Why do you think it is that God, the Father, is applying a passage about Yahweh to his Son?
k
John 1
"the Word was God".
Jesus is "God manifested in the Flesh".
"the Word became flesh and dwelt among us'.
John 1
"the Word was God".
Jesus is "God manifested in the Flesh".
"the Word became flesh and dwelt among us'.
So following the masses through the wide gate shouldn't be seen as a red flag? Understandable for sheep perhaps. Those "shepards" though, they might be in hot water.
Of course following the masses through the wide gate is a huge red flag, but the wide gate is for those who reject the gospel in favour of their own opinions, who put self above the teachings and commands of Scripture, because that is easy.
Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV)
I haven't found a trinity doctrine in the scriptures.
I disagree that Philippians 2:6 is teaching that Jesus is equal to God, Philippians 2:6 teaches the opposite.
There are Bibles that translate Greek words like, "totheion," "theiotes," and "theotes" as, "the Godhead," "the Deity," or "the divinity," in scriptures like Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20 or Colossians 2:9
But there are other Bibles that don't use words like "Godhead "the Deity," or "the divinity," when translating greek words like, "totheion," "theiotes," or "theotes." They translate them differently. Like at Acts 17:29 the person of God is being described, so instead of using the word "Godhead" here are Bible that use "Divine Being" instead and that scripture in that Bible would be appropriate and accurate. It's the same with Romans 1:20, there are Bibles that use, "Godship" instead of "Godhead." Using the word "Godship" instead of Godhead is also completely appropriate and accurate in these Bibles because at Romans 1:20 the Greek word "theiotes" that is here at Romans 1:20 in the context Paul is using that greek word he's discuss things that are discernible in the physical creation that refer to the quality of being a god, not the person of God. For example, while the creation doesn't reveal th name of God, it does give evidence of his "eternal power" which is needed to create and sustain the universe. So Romans 1:20 is saying that the physical creation displays the true Gods Godship that he's the creator, therefore truly God worthy of our worship.
At Colossians 2:9 there are Bibles that use, "divine quality" instead of, "Godhead."
It looks to me that the Bibles that use words like, "Godhead," when translating Greek words like, "totheion," or "theiotes," or "theotes," as "Godhead," etc. they're trying to convey the idea of personality. Like at Colossians 2:9 it seems they're trying to convey the idea that the true God dwells in Christ. However Colossians 2:9 is simply stating that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells in Christ, not that the true God literally dwells in Christ.
Also the context of the scriptures show that Jesus Christ having divinity or divine nature does not make him the same as Almighty God. In the preceding chapter at Colossians 1:19 it says, "God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him." So all fullness that dwells in Christ is because it "pleased the Father,"(kjv) or it was "by God's own choice."(NE) So the fullness of "divinity" that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father.
Also Colossians 3:1 shows that his fullness that's in Christ does not make him the same person as Almighty God because Colossians 3:1 shows Jesus sitting on the right hand of God.
I wouldn't accept most of what the modern versions have translated. They us only a few oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus) which were discarded by the early church because they have too many errors, and is why they rejected their readings. These are the oldest extant manuscripts, but they owe their antiquity to not being used for copying like most manuscripts and worn out like the majority of manuscripts.
The codex Vaticanus was found on a shelf at the Vatican library and sat uncopied for 1500 years. Same for the codex Siniticus which was found in a monistary at the foot of Mount Siani. A monk was using the parchments for getting wood to start burning and a scholar (Tischendorf) was able to retrieve enough to translate the Bible.
Would you trust a Bible if it says "Elhanan slew Goliath," when we know that David slew Goliath (2Sam 21:19). This error is in the modern translations, and I've discovered they have omitted thousands of words and sometimes entire phrases. Another example is the omission in 1JN 5:7. it's suppose to say "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." But they omit the entire verse, which of course is the primary Trinity passage. I found out that the manuscripts they use were written by Gnostics.
God bless!
Now you've got me curious if you're a faith alone proponent. But the majority of supposed believers in Christ are both trinitarian and faith alone believers aren't they?. That should cause one to very closely study those doctrines and verses within context one might believe supports them in my opinion.