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The Trinity

I wouldn't overlook the fact that christianity started when Jesus walked the earth some 2000 years ago. Four hundred years is a long time to screw some stuff up.
It is, but given the importance of the faith and the message of the gospel, and that Jesus said he would never leave nor forsake his followers, it’s hard to believe that so much would go so wrong.

And what we see in extrabiblical writings during that time are the foundations of the Trinity—the deity of Jesus and the person and deity of the Holy Spirit.

Also. Faith in GOD predates "Christianity".
How is that relevant to Christian belief?

What caused you to deduce that whatever the reformation concluded was amis with the ancient RCC, must have been the only things that had been misinterpreted? Pretty sure the "reformation" was guilty of some pretty heinous atrocities. Or are we not to know them by their fruits?
I'm talking about doctrine. There was much that the Reformers threw out and then with the radical Reformation, even more. Certainly if the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the central teachings of the Church, had been seen to be false and only of the Catholic imagination, it, too, would have been thrown out. That every sect in Christianity holds to the doctrine of the Trinity is not insignificant.

Withstood the test of time!? You must not think 2/3rds of the abrahamic faiths are valid whatsoever...so I guess you can alro disregard all of the it and any other non nt writings?
Your conclusion doesn’t follow. Islam is not at all valid, but we are talking about Christian beliefs, are we not? Given that the doctrine of the Trinity was being discovered from the second to fourth centuries and it has been the official position of orthodox Christianity since AD 325.

Making a doctrine law of the land and condemning, murdering, and exiling all who oppose all while burning any contrary evidence and writings is not standing the test of time to me. Nor is landgrabbing, pillaging, and waging war things I would consider fruit of the Spirit filled believer or body of Christ.
Those things aren't right but that doesn't determine the truth of a matter. Besides, that argument cuts both ways, so isn't really useful to your position:

"Thus, if a Roman emperor was disposed favorably toward Arian ideas—as Constantius and Valens were—bishops supporting the creed formulated at Nicaea could be severely punished, most often by being deposed and exiled. If an emperor favoring Nicaea was in power, Arian believers would suffer."

https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-85/how-arianism-almost-won.html

I'm not a scholar, but I am genuine and came into faith without any bias and with an opened heart.
And I have read of those like you but came to see the Trinity or deity of Christ on their own. Being genuine doesn't determine truth either.

The trinity doctrine is read into scripture via sporadic piecemeal, and gross misunderstanding. Similar to how the supposed jew misunderstood all things regarding faith nearly.
The Trinity emerges from the Bible by taking all that God reveals into account, thereby taking all things in context. It is a consistent and coherent reading throughout the NT with hints in the OT. The Bible is based on progressive revelation, after all.

How can the many refer to the world? To me it refers strictly to the supposed believer alone.
How can it? Jesus is talking about salvation.

Let's discuss
That’s what we are doing, is it not?

I do not agree. Something else to discuss.
Again, that’s what we’re doing, is it not?

1) Father
2) the Holy Spirit
3) Jesus (wholly man)
4) Jesus (wholly GOD)
But, again, flesh isn’t deity and has no part in the ontological nature of God.

That is said no where in any scripture or sacred texts relating even loosely to Christianity; unless you seek out Gnostic writings perhaps; and even then...
Not at all. It’s all there, quite clearly in the Bible. The only way to see something different is by taking things out of context.

I disagree. The one "substance" is the Holy Spirit which is GOD.
And yet, the three persons are continuously differentiated and each spoken of in ways that only God is spoken of.

I disagree again; Matthew 10:20
So, the Holy Spirit is spoken as the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God, among other names. This simply shows what Trinitarians teach, namely, that each person interpenetrates the other, since they are of the same substance.
 
I don’t see any issue with “equality;” it’s the Greek word harpagmos, translated as “robbery” in the KJV.

Php 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; (NIV)

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, (NRSV)


Again, Phil 2:5-8 explains why, as James R. White states, a difference in function does not indicate an inferiority of nature. Numerous passages support the deity of Jesus.


That reading proves difficult in addressing the points I gave. It also presumes that the Son isn’t God, despite the verse stating that he was “in the form of God” (and that was prior to him becoming a man). I agree that thinking of oneself as not being equal to God isn’t being humble, if one isn’t actually God, but neither is not thinking “equality with God as obtainable.” That is simply the proper creaturely attitude toward God that many besides Jesus had. Besides, the issue was that they were not treating each other well, not that they were thinking equality with God was obtainable. They were equals acting superior to one another, but Jesus was equal to the Father yet humbled himself to become a man.

The reading I have given, based on the points I have brought out from the text and its being consistent with many other texts, is better, in my opinion. It states the greatest humility possible—the creator who became one of his creatures and limited his glory for the purpose of the salvation of humans and the redemption of all creation.
Englishman's Concordance
ἁρπαγμὸν (harpagmon) — 1 Occurrence
Philippians 2:6 N-AMS
GRK: ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ
NAS: with God a thing to be grasped,
KJV: thought it not robbery to be equal
INT: subsisting not something to be grasped esteemed it

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
 
If you count the seven spirits of God, (which is the Holy Spirit), you actually would have nine… yet, still just one. Just sayin’
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Isaiah shows us the seven spirits of the seven churches in Asia mentioned in Rev 1:4 also being for the whole body of Christ with He being the head of the body.
 
Who sent Christ? Who gave Him back His glory? Who did Christ pray to? Who did Christ say was His GOD, His Father?
The Father. But none of that means he isn't God. To say such is to take those things out of context. What glory did Christ have that it could be given back and when did he have it?

It says expressly that Christ name was placed above all names except for the One having placed Christ over all other names. How is that not plain to you? There is no way to reasonably conflate the meaning of the text here; especially when one considers the simple reading of whole of the bible. We are never to conflate the material and temporal with the spiritual or eternal... In my opinion.
I am not conflating anything; you are taking that out of context.

Actually I brought up those verses only to be ignored and then have you post them again as if they support the idea that Jesus thought He was GOD almighty rather than united in Spirit with His LORD and ours.
Show me exactly where you brought them up and they were ignored. I brought the verses up first, HERE. You responded with "Lol," HERE. I then responded with the same points I gave above, HERE.

You then stated I have addressed very little, but I responded by showing all that you left unaddressed: https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/page-20#post-1791589

You eventually mentioned the passage HERE, but I addressed it in the post immediately following, with what I had posted before, and once again you simply dismissed it without addressing it.

You have literally gotten the two of us confused. You never did address that passage and the points I made regarding it.

... You agree that a form of a thing is not the utter limit or reality of that thing I hope.
It's a figurative understanding of the word "form" anyway. A representative is not the same one as whom he is representing. An image is not also the original, nor does it create itself. The word is spoken by the one in whom the ideal lies and does it speak itself into existence.

Past that it plainly says He did not think to consider himself equal to GOD though He was in a form of, or representation of GOD. It says to have the same mind in us. And you would have us contend that each is GOD almighty I suppose. That's a joke; but hopefully you can see how easily your doctrine can lead to grand error.


The whole section you quoted attests to the fact that GOD is greater than Jesus, HIS Christ.

"was" GOD... before becoming man; having received back His glory upon ascension.


I prefer interlinears personally.
It starts off speaking of not been filled with vanity and haught, and goes on to show that even GOD'S Christ was utterly humble and submissive to GOD; His GOD. Both interlinears I've looked into denote and express that He did not consider self equal to GOD regardless of His placement; that placement that He received from GOD, not self; for submitting to the will of GOD; not for claiming to be equal or partner to GOD.
 
Englishman's Concordance
ἁρπαγμὸν (harpagmon) — 1 Occurrence
Philippians 2:6 N-AMS
GRK: ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ
NAS: with God a thing to be grasped,
KJV: thought it not robbery to be equal
INT: subsisting not something to be grasped esteemed it

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Please read the post immediately prior to this. Appealing to John 14:28 has no bearing on Phil 2:5-8, but Phil 2:5-8 is essential for understanding John 14:28.
 
Where did anywhere Jesus say He is God?

You haven't answered this simple question in those of your humongous posts.
First, I didn’t answer that simple question because no one was asking it. I was addressing other things that people did ask. Second, I have responded directly to you more than once with verses where Jesus states he is God, but you ignored them. In fact, you've ignored every single verse I've ever posted to you. So, the fact you're censuring me for not posting such verses is rather disingenuous.
 
First, I didn’t answer that simple question because no one was asking it
Ok, I am asking for you now then. No trin believers could answer for twenty years of my forum life.

where is it that Jesus says He is God?
 
Ok, I am asking for you now then. No trin believers could answer for twenty years of my forum life.

where is it that Jesus says He is God?
Jesus explicitly claims to be the I Am of Exodus 3:14:

Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NASB)

Note that "He," in verse 24, is italicized because it isn't in the Greek. He then repeats that he is I Am again:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (ESV)

The Jews also understood his claim to be the unique Son of God as a claim to deity and equality with the Father:

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (ESV)

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” (ESV)

Joh 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
Joh 18:5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
Joh 18:6 So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. (NASB)

Again, "He" is not in the Greek. The force of his claim caused those coming to arrest him to draw back and fall to the ground.

We must remember that Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews and so spoke in specific ways that they would understand, including by appealing to the OT:

Mat 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy.
(ESV)

Dan 7:13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (ESV)

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” (ESV)

Jesus combined the two OT passages above in his response to the high priest, but why was it blasphemy? It couldn't be that Jesus was merely claiming to be the Messiah, although it was that as well, since that wasn't blasphemy.

Dan 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. (ESV)

So, why is there more than one throne if God is one? Who is Judge but God alone? Can a mere human, a mortal creature, sit beside God? It is the Son of Man who is given "dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him." More than that, "his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."

Jesus claims to sit on the other throne that is spoken of in Dan 7:9, where he would sit in judgement alongside the Ancient of Days, and where he receives "everlasting dominion." This was another claim to be equal with God.

Also, more implicitly:

Mat 8:26 And he said to them, “Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?” Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
Mat 8:27 And the men marveled, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?”
Mat 8:28 And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. (ESV)

Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (ESV)

Psa 65:7 who stills the roaring of the seas, the roaring of their waves, the tumult of the peoples, (ESV)

Psa 89:8 O LORD God of hosts, who is mighty as you are, O LORD, with your faithfulness all around you?
Psa 89:9 You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them. (ESV)

Psa 107:28 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress.
Psa 107:29 He made the storm be still, and the waves of the sea were hushed.
Psa 107:30 Then they were glad that the waters were quiet, and he brought them to their desired haven. (ESV)

Notice that it is God in the OT who stills the storms and the sea, but that Jesus does it during his ministry. In Mat 14 those in the boat worshiped Jesus and said, "Truly you are the Son of God."


Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
...
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, (ESV)

Eze 34:11 “For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out.
Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness.
...
Eze 34:15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord GOD. (ESV)


The titles God gives himself:

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. (ESV)

Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last. (ESV)

Rev 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (ESV)

And these are Jesus's words:

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
...
Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (ESV)

Jesus said and did things that were explicit and implicit claims to deity, to be God. The Jews understood this and worshiped him on several occasions, with Thomas even declaring that Jesus was his Lord and his God. It is why several NT writers claimed that Jesus was God or ascribed language to him that is also ascribed to God.
 
Jesus explicitly claims to be the I Am of Exodus 3:14:

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No valid results were found for your search. Try refining your search using the form above.[/quote]

Just I thought, your man-made doctrine cannot be found in the Scripture.

I will not search around your lengthy post for such a simple question.

That's how it goes with man-made doctrines.

I know it is not there because Jesus never says He is God.

You are just making it up.

It is so dull that you make such lengthy posts everywhere but no point.

That's why I don't take Trins' claims seriously.
 
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[quote}NO RESULTS FOUND.​

No valid results were found for your search. Try refining your search using the form above.

Just I thought, your man-made doctrine cannot be found in the Scripture.

I will not search around your lengthy post for such a simple question.

That's how it goes with man-made doctrines.

I know it is not there because Jesus never says He is God.

You are just making it up.

It is so dull that you make such lengthy posts everywhere but no point.

That's why I don't take Trins' claims seriously.
[/QUOTE]
See? Your responses continually ignore every passage of Scripture; you dismiss them without likely even reading them. They strongly suggest that you aren’t interested in the truth of the matter. You have absolutely no basis for saying the Trinity is false or that I am making it up. You should stay out of serious discussions and debates if you’re not serious.

I gave passages that clearly show Jesus claiming to be God and equal with the Father, including his own claim to be the unique Son of God.
 


Didn't you see what your first reference says?

It said it cannot be found.

Why do you have the need to make such a lengthy reply to such a simple question of mine?
 
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See? Your responses continually ignore every passage of Scripture;

Didn't you see what your first reference says?

It said it cannot be found.

Why do you have the need to make such a lengthy reply to such a simple question of mine?
[/QUOTE]
I provided exactly what you asked for. Again, if you’re not going to take serious topics seriously, then it’s preferable that you not bring needless interruption into them.
 
First, I didn’t answer that simple question because no one was asking it. I was addressing other things that people did ask. Second, I have responded directly to you more than once with verses where Jesus states he is God, but you ignored them. In fact, you've ignored every single verse I've ever posted to you. So, the fact you're censuring me for not posting such verses is rather disingenuous.
There is no verse in scripture where Jesus states that He is GOD.

You yourself have been disingenuous.
 
There is no verse in scripture where Jesus states that He is GOD.

You yourself have been disingenuous.
I have given verses where he has, explicitly and implicitly. It is the very reason why most of the NT writers state the same.
 
Yes, and I answered it and gave verses where he did say he is God.
You are so dishonest.

Jesus never said He is God.

I guess you have not read the Bible.

Because there is no word from Jesus that says that He is God.
 
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