The Trinity

[heartwashed]

Oneness theology specifically maintains that God is absolutely and indivisibly one.

I believe that this is the case, but not that this is in denial of the Trinity.

I believe that God the Father is one Spirit and that the Son is that same Spirit come in human flesh. The Holy Ghost being that same Spirit released back to the Father into eternity.

 

[heartwashed]

I believe in one God who is the same Lord and the same Spirit in all of His manifestations.

If you believe in a God who is three Persons that are separate rather than distinct, as Him being three Lords, then you believe in a God that is not one Lord as the scriptures declare Him to be one Lord (Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18); as the Athanasian creed forbids you to say that there are three Lords.

I will give once again the following dilemma that you face.

The scripture declares that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And, Jesus is indeed the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord. I have explained how this can be in post #6 (https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1704068).

Now, here is my question for you (I hope that you will answer).

Do you confess, in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, that Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture?

YES or NO?

If the answer is NO, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3);

And therefore don't belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

If the answer is YES, then you admit that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (i.e. Jesus is the Father).

However, I am interested in your answer; so I would ask you please to make your doctrine known.

*

 

[for_his_glory]

Let me say that I do not deny that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

But I am emphasizing the Oneness of God for you in order to dispel within your minds the heresy of Tritheism.

Because in that they are distinct rather than separate, there is a sense in which they are absolutely One.

We do not see three persons of the Trinity as three distinct gods and have been telling you that all along. Why can you not get that!

 

[heartwashed]

This is why you are all over the place with what you present confusing your self saying one thing and turning it around saying another thing.

I am not confused in the slightest. I understand what I am saying to you and find no contradictions anywhere therein.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe that this is the case, but not that this is in denial of the Trinity.

I believe that God the Father is one Spirit and that the Son is that same Spirit come in human flesh. The Holy Ghost being that same Spirit released back to the Father into eternity.

But you keep saying it was God that came in human flesh and this is what we are disputing. But I have invested to much time here and really do not have anymore to give so you have a good evening and God bless.

 

[heartwashed]

We do not see three persons of the Trinity as three distinct gods and have been telling you that all along. Why can you not get that!

Here is your statement: that there is one God who exists in the form of three separate Persons.

I would say that if they are truly separate then you have three Gods no matter how you slice it.

If they're distinct then they can be the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (in a sense, the same Person).

 

[heartwashed]

But you keep saying it was God that came in human flesh and this is what we are disputing. But I have invested to much time here and really do not have anymore to give so you have a good evening and God bless.

You're disputing that God came in human flesh?

Do you deny that Jesus is God?

1Jo 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2, Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3, And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

According to these verses, if Jesus is God, then God came in the flesh.

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[for_his_glory]

You're disputing that God came in human flesh?

Do you deny that Jesus is God?

1Jo 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2, Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3, And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

According to these verses, if Jesus is God, then God came in the flesh.

Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You have a good evening as I have said all I can say and am done.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

I can see that you really do think that you have refuted my statements with scripture; however, I don't see it that way.

That rather goes without saying.

I can't think of one scripture that you have quoted or referenced that contradicts anything that I have said in post #6 or in post #2.

And this brings me right back to a previous point I made. You said that "If anything in the Bible contradicted my theology, I would have changed my theology to fit the understanding that is given by the Bible." I replied that "I have found that it almost never works this way."

This is a case in point. It is similar to conspiracy theorists--they can make anything, even things which prove the conspiracy false, fit the conspiracy. I have found that once someone is on the path of erroneous theology, everything, even contradictory things, are made to align with the error(s).

I believe in one God who is the same Lord and the same Spirit in all of His manifestations.

"Manifestations" is Modalist language.

If you believe in a God who is three Persons that are separate rather than distinct, as Him being three Lords, then you believe in a God that is not one Lord as the scriptures declare Him to be one Lord (Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18); as the Athanasian creed forbids you to say that there are three Lords.

Yet, you have not addressed the fact that the Athanaisan Creed very clearly says there are three Persons. The entire creed pretty much refutes your position, properly understood. You're taking things of creed out of context, just like with the Bible.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Firstly, notice that right at the beginning it is stated there is one God. Secondly, there is to be "Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance." As I pointed out previously, there is a plurality of persons. Thirdly, there is "one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit." Again, within the one God, there are three distinct persons ("neither confounding the persons"), and each is of the same substance ("nor dividing the substance").

Fourthly, they are all coeternal, coequal, uncreated; each fully and truly God, yet there is one God; each truly Lord, yet there is one Lord--"every Person by himself to be God and Lord." Fifthly, none of the Persons is before or after another.

But, what you have done is ignore the second point--you have confounded the persons and so made all three to be one Person, the Father. This is where your serious error begins. From that you continue by saying his name is Jesus, and then twist all sorts of verses to fit. You claim you believe this creed, but it completely contradicts your understanding and proves it to be in error.

I will give once again the following dilemma that you face.

The scripture declares that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And, Jesus is indeed the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord. I have explained how this can be in post #6 (https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1704068).

It is not I who face the dilemma. I can fully admit that Jesus is Lord, yet I can also admit that the Father is Lord and the Holy Spirit is Lord, yet they are not the same Person.

If the answer is YES, then you admit that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (i.e. Jesus is the Father).

And, here, you are confused. You are once again making two Persons into one Person. That is Modalism, not Trinitarianism. Jesus is Lord but he is not the Father, as per the Athanasian and Nicene creeds.

I have said the following.
Let me say that I do not deny that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

But I am emphasizing the Oneness of God for you in order to dispel within your minds the heresy of Tritheism.

Because in that they are distinct rather than separate, there is a sense in which they are absolutely One.

Yes, you certainly do deny three distinct Persons within the Trinity. Ontologically, you believe in one Person, the Father, and the Son is merely a mode of the Father's existence, if not a created being. In other words, there was a time when the Son did not exist.

Again, what we believe is Trinitarianism, not Tritheism. Your error in understanding is leading you to false conclusions about what the Trinity is and what others believe.

There is one God, who has always existed (before time even began) as three divine, coequal, coeternal Persons, as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As the Athanasian Creed says, "one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity."

 

[Free]

As one who has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but who did not (physically) continue with the Oneness Pentecostals to be indoctrinated by them, I nevertheless hold to a view of the Godhead that emphasizes His Oneness (although I do not deny the plurality within the Godhead).

I might have thought as much. Their erroneous teaching of Modalism is still affecting your understanding of God. Like I said, your belief is a form of Modalism.

 

[heartwashed]

Hi Free,

I will say unequivocally that I believe in three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

The Father is not the Son in that He is not come in the flesh except in the Person of the Son: He is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity.

And I will also say that you have not refuted my theology but have rather fallen back on a logical fallacy in that you label my theology as being what is unorthodox in order to deter people from believing in it; while you have not produced one verse in the Bible that has been able to refute my theology.

Again I will say that if the Son is eternally begotten as a Spirit in eternity, rather than being begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35), then you have two Spirits inhabiting eternity (see Ephesians 4:4) and therefore two Gods.

But if Jesus is the same Spirit as the Father, come in the flesh, then that is one Spirit and one God.

Your contention is with James 2:19, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; not with me.

 

[heartwashed]

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv)), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33; John 8:24), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

Understand Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 in light of the above information.

Posted in obedience to Titus 2:1.

*

 

[heartwashed]

This is a case in point. It is similar to conspiracy theorists--they can make anything, even things which prove the conspiracy false, fit the conspiracy. I have found that once someone is on the path of erroneous theology, everything, even contradictory things, are made to align with the error(s).

That goes for you.

 

[heartwashed]

It is not I who face the dilemma. I can fully admit that Jesus is Lord, yet I can also admit that the Father is Lord and the Holy Spirit is Lord, yet they are not the same Person.

So, you deny that there is one Lord?

 

[heartwashed]

Jesus is Lord but he is not the Father,

The Father is Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18) and there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5).

Explain how your above statement can be true in light of these things.

You have two Lords.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

I will say unequivocally that I believe in three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

But you do not believe in the Trinity of Christian history and orthodoxy. You begin with a false premise, that there is one person, the Father, and then try and make it fit within a Trinitarian framework. That necessitates the theological and scriptural gymnastics you are doing which ends up in contradiction, as I have pointed out, and a Trinity that is of your own making. As soon as you say that there is one Person, the Father, you have deviated from the doctrine of the Trinity and into Modalism. Full stop.

You have held onto the false idea of one Person, as per Oneness Pentecostalism, and are now trying to make it fit within the Trinity. It cannot and will not work. Ever.

That sums up this entire discussion.

And I will also say that you have not refuted my theology but have rather fallen back on a logical fallacy in that you label my theology as being what is unorthodox in order to deter people from believing in it; while you have not produced one verse in the Bible that has been able to refute my theology.

You have been soundly refuted by the two of us. And I haven't even touched John 1:1-18 and other relevant passages. And, no, there is no fallacy, as I have already pointed out. People shouldn't believe your theology because it isn't biblical.

So, you deny that there is one Lord?

The Father is Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18) and there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5).

Explain how your above statement can be true in light of these things.

You have two Lords.

I have stated exactly what the Athanasian Creed states.

 

[heartwashed]

But you do not believe in the Trinity of Christian history and orthodoxy. You begin with a false premise, that there is one person, the Father, and then try and make it fit within a Trinitarian framework.

God is in fact one Person, even the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

You have held onto the false idea of one Person, as per Oneness Pentecostalism, and are now trying to make it fit within the Trinity. It cannot and will not work. Ever.

It does work; even if the reality of 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 prevents you from seeing that.

You have been soundly refuted by the two of us.

Nope.

I have stated exactly what the Athanasian Creed states.

So, you believe there is one Lord? The Athanasian creed forbids you to say that there are three Lords.

So, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord; and that is not three Lords, but one.

I want you to begin meditating in your thought on what that really means.

Can it mean that the Son is eternally begotten and not in the incarnation; so that there are two Spirits residing in eternity that are not the same Spirit?

I think that I don't have to discuss these things with you any further.

If you want to believe in an eternal mirror and Jesus is on the other side of that mirror from the Father, it is still one God and two Persons that I am mentioning here. Yet, it is the same Person on the other side of that mirror. So, in a sense, still one Person.

But if there is no eternal mirror and God the Father begat an entirely different Person who is a Spirit inhabiting eternity, and who is also a different Spirit from the Father, then that is another God entirely.

But I think that you should consider the reality that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35). I think that the ones who came up with the Trinitarian creeds missed that tidbit in holy scripture.

 

[heartwashed]

Free,

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Consider 1 Corinthians 8:6.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Consider that this verse might teach us that if Jesus isn't the Father, that He isn't God;

Since there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

If they are two separate Persons I count that as one, two.

Therefore the Father is not the Lord and Jesus is not God.

Since there is one God, and He can't be Jesus since He is the Father; and Jesus is the Lord, not God.

And there is one Lord, and He can't be the Father since He is Jesus; and the Father is God, not the Lord.

That is, if in no way are the Father and the Son the same Person.

Nevertheless we have the following verses.

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2Co 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[heartwashed]

Free, I hope that you will take the time to think about the implications of what I am saying in my posts before responding further.

It may be that you will not come to the proper conclusions unless you actually think about what I am saying to you.

If you just set about to type in an effort to continue to try and refute what I am saying, you may never understand what I am saying to you.

But I think that you will take a deep breath and begin to think about what I am writing to you; and that because of that there may be a profound change in your attitude towards me and what I am writing to you.

 

[Free]

God is in fact one Person, even the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

Then you don't believe the creeds as you claimed.

It does work;

No, it absolutely does not and cannot. The dead giveaway is that Oneness is Oneness/Modalism and Trinitarianism is Trinitarianism. You are trying to combine two utterly incompatible ideas.

even if the reality of 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 prevents you from seeing that.

Not at all an issue for me. This is exactly the type of argument I expected back when I said that people rarely change their views in theology. Rather than actually being open to changing their views, people will typically play the "Satan has blinded your mind" card when they can't convince the other person(s) to change their view(s). It really is a pointless argument to make since every person on every side in a debate could make the same claim.

So, you believe there is one Lord? The Athanasian creed forbids you to say that there are three Lords.

So, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord; and that is not three Lords, but one.

Yes. Just as each person is fully and truly God, yet the three persons are one God.

Can it mean that the Son is eternally begotten

It is the only thing it can mean.

and not in the incarnation; so that there are two Spirits residing in eternity that are not the same Spirit?

Since the incarnation, Jesus is God the Son in human flesh, having both a divine and human spirit, truly God and truly man for eternity.

If you want to believe in an eternal mirror and Jesus is on the other side of that mirror from the Father, it is still one God and two Persons that I am mentioning here. Yet, it is the same Person on the other side of that mirror. So, in a sense, still one Person.

But if there is no eternal mirror and God the Father begat an entirely different Person who is a Spirit inhabiting eternity, and who is also a different Spirit from the Father, then that is another God entirely.

I don't understand your mirror analogy.

But I think that you should consider the reality that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35). I think that the ones who came up with the Trinitarian creeds missed that tidbit in holy scripture.

The Son is eternally begotten and became Jesus at the incarnation.

Free,

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Of course. That is what the Bible teaches and is rather the whole point of the Nicene Creed.

Consider 1 Corinthians 8:6.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Consider that this verse might teach us that if Jesus isn't the Father, that He isn't God;

Since there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

If they are two separate Persons I count that as one, two.

Therefore the Father is not the Lord and Jesus is not God.

Since there is one God, and He can't be Jesus since He is the Father; and Jesus is the Lord, not God.

And there is one Lord, and He can't be the Father since He is Jesus; and the Father is God, not the Lord.

That is, if in no way are the Father and the Son the same Person.

Nevertheless we have the following verses.

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2Co 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

That is generally the false understanding that non-Trinitarians have of 1 Cor 8:6, or at least what non-Trinitarian ideas lead to. But, remember the Athanasian Creed, which you provided and said you believed--each member of the Trinity, each Person is Lord, yet there is one Lord--"one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity."

But 1 Cor 8:6 is Paul's expansion or exposition of the Shema (Deut 6:4). We have to be very careful to not go beyond what is stated and make Paul say something he is not. We can no more say that Jesus cannot be God than we can say that the Father cannot be Lord. Both are God and Lord.

Consider that if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's omnipotence and eternal pre-existence, then it follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's omnipotence and eternal pre-existence. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed in John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2. Simple logic shows that the only reasonable conclusion is that they are both God, since Jesus (the Son) cannot be one of those "things" that has come into existence. Yet, the NT is clear that the Father and the Son are both eternally distinct.

Trinitarianism alone makes sense of 1 Cor 8:6.

Free, I hope that you will take the time to think about the implications of what I am saying in my posts before responding further.

It may be that you will not come to the proper conclusions unless you actually think about what I am saying to you.

If you just set about to type in an effort to continue to try and refute what I am saying, you may never understand what I am saying to you.

But I think that you will take a deep breath and begin to think about what I am writing to you; and that because of that there may be a profound change in your attitude towards me and what I am writing to you.

I understand what you are writing and I have come to the proper conclusion--it is not right; it is not at all biblical. The idea that God is one person, that he is only the Father who then became the Son, was first refuted over 1800 years ago by Justin Martyr and affirmed as error throughout Church history.

I may write strongly but that is out of concern for you. You are believing in a serious error. Truth matters, especially when it comes to God. There is no more important question in the NT, and perhaps all of Scripture, than, "But who do you say that I am?" Get that wrong and nothing else matters.