The Two Witnesses of Revelation

[Vic C.]

For your information, Vic, I disrupt the work of Satan and his earthly servants.

Cool. 8-)

Don't worry about the conflict of interpretation we have; we are two stubbern people (lol) expressing our beliefs. Not worried at all about delusion or deception either. My Faith isn't in two witnesses, my Faith is in One. :wink:

I will still stubbernly instst that standing before the god of this world could mean 'standing up against the god of this world'. : Hey, no one jumped in and corrected either one of us. Maybe we're both wrong! :-D

With that said, I would check into the olive tree and candlestick.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Georges]

"Thank you for your well-meaning reply, but I am sorry to say that, in my stubbornness, I still see no reason to accept that the "witnesses" are anything other than SATAN's, since they stand before SATAN (Rev 11:4; 2 Cor 4:4. "


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Capitol "G".....earth in Greek is the physical earth.

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Small "g"......also.....world is "age" as in time period...not meant to be the physical earth.


Since the book of Revelation is a Jewish book....Jewish resources provide the best clues for who are the witnesses..."see the first post".

 

[Vic C.]

George,

After I posted, I started to think if Revelation 11:4 said world instead of earth, disruptor may have been on to something. Therefore I concede my reasoning may have been wrong, but my overall conclusion is correct. Thay are of GOD. Agreed?

 

[Georges]

see below.

 

[Georges]

George,

After I posted, I started to think if Revelation 11:4 said world instead of earth, disruptor may have been on to something. Therefore I concede my reasoning may have been wrong, but my overall conclusion is correct. Thay are of GOD. Agreed?

Absolutely....couldn't be any other way....

 

[disruptor]

If I may be permitted a few further minor observations on your comments:

Vic wrote:

and I (=the Lord) will give power unto my two witnesses... This is the Lord speaking to John. This is not Satan talking to him. I can't see how you can say these witnesses of are from anyone else than God Himself. To do so is to add to this passage something that is just not there

“I” in this case is NOT the Lord, but the ANGEL. So the witnesses are NOT witnesses of the Lord, they are witnesses of the angel. This is easy enough to confirm merely by re-reading the verses:

Rev 11:1-3 and the angel stood, saying....and I will give power to my witnesses

The whole passage is spoken by the angel. Angel itself is a completely neutral word in Greek, meaning just “messenger”, which can be either of God, of Satan or of Man. So note who is actually speaking – the angel.

The angel descending and reascending is also irrelevant, because of this:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Notice that, contrary to popular belief, the devil is come DOWN unto us, and not up!

Vic wrote:

After I posted, I started to think if Revelation 11:4 said world instead of earth, disruptor may have been on to something....

I also don't see why the WORLD versus EARTH issue determines it since both are used:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole WORLD: he was cast out into the EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him.

And here they are to this day, ruling over their slaves.

Vic wrote:

At this point, you may want to do some research on olive trees and candlesticks. Also, your comment about sackcloths and stooges is just off the wall. Look at the way John the Baptist dresses and what he ate. I guess he was a stooge too. Do some research as to what sackcloth is and why it was worn in Biblical times.

While I naturally thank you for your helpful hints as to my future areas of research, I personally suggest that we all start closer to home and refer to our Bibles to ensure accuracy. John the Baptist wore CAMELHAIR (Mat 3:4), and at no point in the Bible does he wear “sackcloth” despite your claim.

Olive tree = Greeks/Gentiles; Candlestick = Jews, referring to those Gentiles and Jews corrupted and deluded into worshipping Satan (of whom there are plenty, I hasten to add).

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon

...both meaning ruiner or destroyer, a perfect adjective to apply to our current Satanic governments and their UN stooges.

And next time I see a politician wearing sackcloth I'll let you know...it won't be too long, I fear. 8-)

And the Temple is still ours...

:smt070 :smt067 :smt068

 

[Vic C.]

While I naturally thank you for your helpful hints as to my future areas of research, I personally suggest that we all start closer to home and refer to our Bibles to ensure accuracy. John the Baptist wore CAMELHAIR (Mat 3:4), and at no point in the Bible does he wear “sackcloth†despite your claim.

Nowhere in my post did I make such a claim. I made a general comparison between the outward appearances of the two witnesses and John to show how silly your "stooge" comment was, that's all. :-?

Sackcloth and Ashes

It seems you want to take the Burger King approach to interpreting Revelations. That's fine with me. The two witnesses are not of God, they are of Satan. "Have it your way". 8-)

BTW, who is really doing the talking here;

Exodus 3:2-10

Wait, I know... it's Satan! :roll:

 

[Vic C.]

Rev. 11:3-13 - The Two Witnesses

The third part of the interlude involves the two witnesses. "Two" symbolizes strength (Eccl. 4:9-12). The early missionary journeys were accompanied two by two. We see in these verses the symbol of the strength of the early apostles and prophets bearing witness of the gospel. This same testimony continued in the Word held and proclaimed by the saints. They gave a powerful witness for 1,260 days (again, the same time as in 11:2, 12:6, 14; Dan 7:21-26) clothed in sackcloth (a coarse sack fabric which was worn by ancient people in time of mourning); thus, they were prophesying through a time of affliction or persecution.

Verse 4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." This explanation of the two witnesses seems to be drawn from the vision in Zechariah 4. The angel that talked with Zechariah asked him saying, "Do you not know what these (the two olive trees) are? (Zech. 4:13) The angel said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." In the context of chapters 3 and 4 of Zechariah, Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the governor were God's anointed ones. It was through those offices that He was blessing Israel at that time.

The "two witnesses" of Rev. 11 perhaps is referring to the apostles and prophets. The terms "they will prophesy" (vs. 3) and "their testimony" (vs. 7) no doubt refers to the testimony that was borne during the time of persecution (Rev. 6:9; 12:11,17; 19:10; 20:4). Here again is a chart which shows that many of the terms in the book tie all the scenes together. It will become more evident as we proceed, that this fact is important in helping to obtain the correct interpretation of the book.

http://www.bibleanswer.com/rev11_1f.htm

 

[reznwerks]

more food

Food for thought.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Is Elijah one of the Two Witnesses?

Mark 9:12-13
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. (KJV)

John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John 1:19-28
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

"Art thou that prophet?"
HE was not the flesh man/prophet Elijah. There was one, and only one, individual soul Elijah the prophet.

these did not ask John if he was wearing the same mantle which had been upon Elijah, who had passed down Elisha.
They did not ask if he had come in the spirit of Elijah.

John 1:
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Which was the mission of Elijah.

Isa 40:1-5
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

John was John, but he had the HOLY SPIRIT, and the spirit of Elijah, his office/position upon him.
John rightfully denied being Elijah. He was not Elijah, but the same spirit of Elijah was upon him. The HOLY SPIRIT is Symbolic of the mantle 2 Kings 2:14

Is there a type of Moses with us today?
Do we have a type of Elijah (Aaron, Elisha, etc) with us today?
GOD's HOLY SPIRIT is HE who has determined upon whom the spirit of Elijah has come upon.

And, HE has brought forth that mantle which was taken up by HIS chosen vessels. 2 Tim 2:20-21

Anyone one who teaches Truth in a sense, is preparing the Way, makeing straight in the desert a highway for our God. Part of the Elijah ministry of the end times.

How do you square this when Jesus said that John was in fact Elias? One or the other is wrong.
“What did you go out into the desert to see? ... A prophet? Yes I tell you, and one greater than a prophet. This is the one for whom it was written: Behold, I send my messenger before your face who will prepare the way before you.†… Truly I say to you ... there has not been raised of those born of women greater than John the Baptist. ... For all the prophets and the Law prophesied up to the time of John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elias ... the one about to come. The one having ears, let him hear†(Mt 11:9-14).
In Matthew's version of the transfiguration John the Baptist is again revealed as Elias by Jesus ... Elias will come first ... he will not be recognized ... people did to him what they pleased (they killed him) ... and then ... he was speaking to them about John the Baptist (Mt 17:10-13).

 

[Georges]

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

From John the Baptists own lips.....

Jhn 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Are you Elijah....John said.."no".
Are you that prophet (Moses),....John said...."no".


John came in the spirit of Elijah, but was not Elijah....Elijah was taken to heaven alive...he will return alive to announce the Messiah...and make straight the way of the Lord....

 

[Aharon]

Are you that prophet (Moses),....John said...."no".

The Ryrie Study Bible says that "that prophet" is not a reference to Moses. It comes from Deuteronomy 18:15, which was actually a reference to Christ himself, though the Jews didn't realize it.

I consider the Two Witnesses Elijah and Moses, since a. Elijah was prophesied to come before the day of Yahweh, and b. Moses appeared with Elijah and talked with Jesus, giving him a status alongside Elijah.

~Aharon--

 

[Georges]

Are you that prophet (Moses),....John said...."no".

The Ryrie Study Bible says that "that prophet" is not a reference to Moses. It comes from Deuteronomy 18:15, which was actually a reference to Christ himself, though the Jews didn't realize it.

I consider the Two Witnesses Elijah and Moses, since a. Elijah was prophesied to come before the day of Yahweh, and b. Moses appeared with Elijah and talked with Jesus, giving him a status alongside Elijah.

~Aharon--

Aharon....the Jews consider "That Prophet" to be the one that announces the Messiah along with Elijah....since they were expecting the Messiah...and the Jews expectation of the herald of the Messiah would be Elijah....they also expected Moses to accompany Elijah....

From Ginsbergs "Legends of the Jews"....

THE SECOND TABLES
Whereas the first tables had been given on Mount Sinai amid great ceremonies, the presentation of the second tables took place quietly, for God said: "There is nothing lovelier than quiet humility. The great ceremonies on the occasion of presenting the first tables had the evil effect of directing an evil eye toward them, so that they were finally broken." In this also were the second tables differentiated from the first, that the former were the work of God, and the latter, the work of man. God dealt with Israel like the king who took to himself to wife and drew up the marriage contract with his own hand. One day the king noticed his wife engaged in very intimate conversation with a slave; and enraged at her unworthy conduct, he turned here out of his house. Then he who had given the bride away at the wedding came before the king and said to him: "O sire, dost thou not know whence thou didst take thy bride? She had been brought up among the slaves, and hence is intimate with them." The king allowed himself to be appeased, saying to the other: "Take paper and let a scribe draw up a new marriage contract, and here take my authorization, signed in my own hand." Just so did Israel fare with their God when Moses offered the following excuse for their worship of the Golden Calf: "O Lord, dost Thou not know whence Thou hast brought Israel, out of a land of idolaters?" God replied: "Thou desirest Me to forgive them. Well, then, I shall do so, now fetch Me hither tables on which I may write the words that were written on the first. But to reward thee for offering up thy life for their sake, I shall in the future send thee along with Elijah, that both of you together may prepare Israel for the final deliverance."


But to say that "That Prophet" is Christ conflicts with...

Jhn 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

of course, if they would have just come out and said Moses...there would be no debate...

 

[MrVersatile48]

Fascinating thread, guys! 8-)

I'm amazed nobody's posted the most obvious passage yet:- :roll:

Revelation 11:1-14

Back to print... :wink:

Revelation 11:1-14 (New International Version)


Revelation 11
The Two Witnesses

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 1
0The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon...

Some say that verse 12 is the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus - as in Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

Matthew 24:30-31 (New International Version)

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (New International Version)

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]

55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

1 Thess 4:13-5:11

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.
7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


But most say that is in Revelation 4:1 - as the church is still on Earth in Revelation 2-3

Revelation 4
The Throne in Heaven

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

& never mentioned on Earth again in Revelation

Me?

I say that was John being caught up to see the future vision he was to write & circulate

But yes, it sure is a wonderful picture/reminder of Christ coming for us...

Revelation 4-5 show the greatest praise party ever: in Heaven @ the 'Marriage Supper of the Lamb' - that Jesus famously described, saying that those 1st invited turned their backs on it, so we are to 'go into the highways & byways &....'

1 thing's for certain sure, y'all...

The Bible says, 'NOW is the day of salvation'

It says, 'TODAY, if you her God's voice, don't harden your hearts...'

Don't be left behind to the worst time ever, OK?

Back to link you to my lyric, Before Our Eyes @ our Creative Writing/Poetry Forum...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18604


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BEFORE OUR EYES..
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MrVersatile48
123 Christian Regular


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 498
Location: Southport, UK
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:42 am Post subject: BEFORE OUR EYES..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was put to a medley of Spencer Davis Group's "Somebody Help Me" & Procol Harum's, "Conquistador" - I pray some rockin' Christian tunesmith does a 21st century remix..

It was inspired, during the Jesus Revolution of the '70s, by a question the prophet Habbakuk asked, & by long study of Bible prophecies..

BEFORE OUR EYES..

As I go walkin' thru da wilderness of life
how come I see such tears & strife
all around me right now?

Does every man alive just look thru his own eyes?

Is every smile just a thin disguise?


That this world rushes to its close
is evidenced
by all of those
things the Bible prophesies
that now we see BEFORE OUR EYES..

BEFORE OUR EYES
we see the rushing of many mighty winds...

The last 2 centuries have seen
such speeding up of things...

This is the underlying trend
the Bible did portend
behind the actual events
as heralds of the end...

& yes..

we've seen man's science unwind
such mysteries
"Oh - there's so much we can find!"

But...

the more we flaunt our control...



human nature

just

murders the soul...

INSTRUMENTAL VOICE-OVER..

All too soon..

per Revelation 6:8..

in that notorious chapter @ the "4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse"..

25% of mankind will die by war, famine, pestilence. & wild beasts..

then...

per Revelation 9:13/18...

33% of survivors die in war begun @ R Euphrates in Iraq...

&...

all too soon afterwards...

per Revelation 16...

R Euphrates dries up for the invasion of Israel...

via the mountains in between...

by 200 million oriental troops...

triggering total Armageddon...

as in Joel 2/3, Dan 7, Zechariah 12/14 & Revelation 16/19...

so...


praise God for the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus

But...

have YOU ever fallen in love with the 1-&-only-Lord-&-Saviour???

Right now...

you can ask Jesus to forgive all the wrong things that you've ever thought, said & done...

& invite Him into YOUR heart...

as Lord & Saviour...

For assurance of salvation by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in the once-for-all atoning sacrifice of Christ @ Calvary's cross, see John 3, Romans 3, Galatians 2:15-16, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc..

& welcome into the family of the King of kings & Lord of lords!!!
_________________




& to post those Scriptures...

God bless all who get ready to 'meet the Lord in the air' :multi:


Ian

 

[Georges]

Fascinating thread, guys! 8-)

I'm amazed nobody's posted the most obvious passage yet:- :roll:

Revelation 11:1-14

Back to print... :wink:

Ian

I personally try and use Jewish resources to understand bible prophecy....and this case is no different...Rev is the most Jewish book in the NT, and I try to unlock it's secrets using Jewish eschatology.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Fascinating thread, guys! 8-)

I'm amazed nobody's posted the most obvious passage yet:- :roll:

Revelation 11:1-14

Back to print... :wink:

Ian

I personally try and use Jewish resources to understand bible prophecy....and this case is no different...Rev is the most Jewish book in the NT, and I try to unlock it's secrets using Jewish eschatology.

Yo Dallas! :-D

Y'all ain't too far from San Antonio's Cornerstone Church - http://www.jhm.org sensational book, Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee of http://www.God.TV & http://www.Daystar.TV & http://www.Gospel.TV etc there, buddy! 8-)

I know ya call it Texas 'cos it teks us 3 days to R=I=D=E across it... :wink:

which reminds me of the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Revelation 6

Apocalypse, like revelation, = unveiling :angel:

Back to print that there 'unveiling' too... :D

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

Ian

 

[Georges]

Fascinating thread, guys! 8-)

I'm amazed nobody's posted the most obvious passage yet:- :roll:

Revelation 11:1-14

Back to print... :wink:

Ian

I personally try and use Jewish resources to understand bible prophecy....and this case is no different...Rev is the most Jewish book in the NT, and I try to unlock it's secrets using Jewish eschatology.

Yo Dallas! :-D

Y'all ain't too far from San Antonio's Cornerstone Church - http://www.jhm.org sensational book, Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee of http://www.God.TV & http://www.Daystar.TV & http://www.Gospel.TV etc there, buddy! 8-)

I was down in SA a couple of weeks ago and passed by Cornerstone....it is a big place....

I know ya call it Texas 'cos it teks us 3 days to R=I=D=E across it... :wink:

Would you believe that you can drive for 12 hours top to bottom and still not cross the state? Also, El Paso is closer to LA than it is to Dallas....

which reminds me of the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Revelation 6

Apocalypse, like revelation, = unveiling :angel:

Back to print that there 'unveiling' too... :D

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

Ian

And Ian,...........Man Utd all the way, baby !!!!!!

 

[Aharon]

But to say that "That Prophet" is Christ conflicts with...

Jhn 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

The idea is that the Jews misunderstood the passage and incorrectly seperated "that Prophet" from the Messiah, as I stated in my previous post. But that's just what Ryrie thought it meant.

~Aharon--

 

[Georges]

But to say that "That Prophet" is Christ conflicts with...

Jhn 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

The idea is that the Jews misunderstood the passage and incorrectly seperated "that Prophet" from the Messiah, as I stated in my previous post. But that's just what Ryrie thought it meant.

~Aharon--

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly....The Jews got it right....The were expecting Messiah, Elijah, and Moses.....So they were correct...It is possible to have more than one "that prophet" but in this context (ie the possible introduction of the Messianic kingdom), "that prophet" can only be Moses...

If that is what you are saying.....I agree....

 

[Aharon]

But to say that "That Prophet" is Christ conflicts with...

Jhn 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

The idea is that the Jews misunderstood the passage and incorrectly seperated "that Prophet" from the Messiah, as I stated in my previous post. But that's just what Ryrie thought it meant.

~Aharon--

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly....The Jews got it right....The were expecting Messiah, Elijah, and Moses.....So they were correct...It is possible to have more than one "that prophet" but in this context (ie the possible introduction of the Messianic kingdom), "that prophet" can only be Moses...

If that is what you are saying.....I agree....

I'm not sure if I understand if you understand or not...

Let me start from the beginning: Ryrie has the idea that "that prophet" is in reference to the Prophet in Deuteronomy 18:15-19:

Yahweh thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, and of thy brethren, like unto me; (Moses) unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou desiredst of Yahweh thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And Yahweh said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

The Jews thought that "a Prophet" was a different prophet from the Messiah, but it was actually the same as Christ. So in John it shows them asking John if he is Christ or "that prophet," even though they are the same.

That is what Ryrie thinks it means.

~Aharon--

 

[Georges]

But to say that "That Prophet" is Christ conflicts with...

Jhn 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

The idea is that the Jews misunderstood the passage and incorrectly separated "that Prophet" from the Messiah, as I stated in my previous post. But that's just what Ryrie thought it meant.

~Aharon--

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly....The Jews got it right....The were expecting Messiah, Elijah, and Moses.....So they were correct...It is possible to have more than one "that prophet" but in this context (ie the possible introduction of the Messianic kingdom), "that prophet" can only be Moses...

If that is what you are saying.....I agree....

I'm not sure if I understand if you understand or not...

Let me start from the beginning: Ryrie has the idea that "that prophet" is in reference to the Prophet in Deuteronomy 18:15-19:

Yahweh thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, and of thy brethren, like unto me; (Moses) unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou desiredst of Yahweh thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And Yahweh said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

I understand how "that prophet" in the context above is Jesus....it can't be Moses because of the term "like unto me"...I get that....

The Jews thought that "a Prophet" was a different prophet from the Messiah, but it was actually the same as Christ.

No...according to Ginsberg's "Legends of the Jew" the portion I pasted, states the conversation between God and Moses. God tells Moses he will accompany Elijah in the future....Moses is "that Prophet" that the people expected along with Elijah to introduce the Messiah...this is taken from Jewish Sources...

From the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on Eschatology....

(2) Moses, who will reappear with Elijah (Deut. R. iii.; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xii. 42; comp. Ex. R. xviii. and Luke ix. 30);

Shows the Jewish Targum explanation of Messiahs appearance with Moses and Elijah...


So in John it shows them asking John if he is Christ or "that prophet," even though they are the same.

Here we part company....I will agree that "that prophet" in your first paragraph does refer to the Messiah, but not in the context of the John passage.

That is what Ryrie thinks it means.

I do respect much of Ryrie presents....Ryrie attended and held office at Dallas Theological Seminary...(I actually work a couple of blocks away). I am very aware of and agree with much of their prophetical beliefs...however, I don't think that Ryrie knows as much about the OT or Rabbinic interpretation of the entire spectrum of OT (including Apocrypha and Pseudo apocrapha) literature, than the Jew's accumulated knowledge amassed by 4000 years of study.

~Aharon--