The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[OzSpen]

Still waiting.

Your belief and faith are not a product of your will? (John 1:13)

Quantrill

Quantrill,

Your verse contradicts these verses:

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”​

​

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:29-31 NIV).​

"Believe" is in the imperative mood, meaning, "You believe." It's a command to human beings.

So the human will combines with the Lord's will to bring salvation. There is no salvation without the human being believing.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

cannot be Biblical, as the Jesus Himself says that BOTH "REPENTANCE and FAITH" are required for a sinner to be saved, as in Mark 1:15!

You said that .the teaching is that true repentance will have works .the five solas are short reminders of the basics .

Does your name define what the 66 books are or just an short reminder for the reformed .Luther stares both solo fide and scriptura .I guess I should have a priest tell me what works I must do to make it to heaven just like the local Catholic church does .

40 days of life to protest abortion counts
Giving to the poor

I learned what sola scriptura was and why from an arp minister long before joining one arp church

I knew of it and not so much the details of why

 

[Fastfredy0]

None of those verses you gave have anything to do with what you say that it pleased God to allow them to s,in. It pleased God that He could take what was sinful of man to do and make it glory to Him by counteracting their sin. We can see this more with Joseph who turned what was evil towards him into forgiveness and showing the God glory of the God in helping his brothers.

Agreed. The verses were directed to you who apparently thinks God is not omniscient (a stunning revelation ... more than your doctrine of salvation without knowing of Christ)

Aside: In post #30 I addressed the WCF question.

It pleased God that He could take what was sinful of man to do and make it glory to Him by counteracting their sin. We can see this more with Joseph who turned what was evil towards him into forgiveness and showing the God glory of the God in helping his brothers.

Reasonable I suppose. Sounds like you're supporting the WCF statement stating God was pleased to allow evil to enter the world by mentioning other evil events that GOd use for his purposes and glory. But this as I recall contradicts other posts you made on this thread not to mention the you don't think God is omniscient thus implying He might not know what the consequences of man's creation in reference to evil might occur ... so I am totally confused. I don't see the relevance of many of your verses. I'm confused.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But yet none of those scriptures that @Fastfredy0 gave in post #6 mentioned that it pleased God to allow them to sin. Do you see where they say this?

I'll keep it simple this time.
The most evil event ever and God states: Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him [Christ]”.

This refers to God being pleased to have his Son murdered which is evil. Someone asks for proof the evil can please God, so here it is. I could go into more detail as to the aspect of this heinous event that pleased God, but I am keeping it simple.
Acts 4:27-28 and Acts 2:23 affirm that it was God's plan for this evil event to occur and Isaiah 53:10 affirms it pleased God. This parallels the WCF statement that it pleased God to have evil enter the world.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But they did not answer his question so why are you arguing about something that is between @SolaScriptura and @Fastfredy0 ?

I answered Sola's question more directly in post #30.

 

[Fastfredy0]

There is the whole problem as some believe we have free-will and others do not so arguments are made with both sides. If we do not have free-will then we would be nothing more than puppets that God would control as one being evil and the other one Good and pleasing to Him. Just think about it for awhile.

Show us the Free Will verses in the bible to justify your worshiped doctrine.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So when God says to the sinner, you must believe in order to be saved; and if you don't believe, you will be damned for eternity, the sinner cannot decide for themselves, and God make them do so?

Yes.... Regeneration logically precedes faith.

So it is God who does the believing for the sinner?

No, God is the cause via regeneration the our faith. It is our faith which would not be exercised unless God first regenerated us.
Aside: I thought you use to ex-reformed. This is a crux doctrine. You should know this. I think you think you use to be reformed but possibly didn't understand this essential aspect.

 

[jasonc]

if one is to assume that the wcf which was never to be the bible in the presbyterian(kirk) church of scotland or its predecessor the london baptist confession then one must assume the church being a high(calvinist) church in anglican and its sister churchs of the presbyterian , therefore america is founded on the doctrine of satan? i see more idolatry now in the churchs then when the puritans came and the anglican church following. the puritan broke away from the anglican and fled to america and viriginia was an anglican colony. these werent immune to falling, no church is but my point is that the early american protestants didnt tolerate christmas, halloween and werent prone to what weak theology we have today. i am not even a reformed 5 pointer but my church is, God forbid i should be discipled by them and grow , i am spurred to reach the lost and so on.

there are proper arminist mixes and i say that because many do believe in eternal security that i could attend, but i am feed where i go. it is small, but i see that i can make a difference. the worship follows one of the 5 solas(it was even mentioned a few times and we imply it with the song doxology) that worship is to be solo gloria deo. many worship songs are not quite that way and more like entertainment.

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill,

Your verse contradicts these verses:

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”​

​

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:29-31 NIV).​

"Believe" is in the imperative mood, meaning, "You believe." It's a command to human beings.

So the human will combines with the Lord's will to bring salvation. There is no salvation without the human being believing.

Oz

It doesn't matter what mood 'believe' is in. One must believe to be saved. That does not contradict (John 1:13).

And (John 1:12-13) is clear. Those that believe are not born-again by the will of man.

Of course there is no salvation without the human believing. Where did I say otherwise?

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

You said that .the teaching is that true repentance will have works .the five solas are short reminders of the basics .

Does your name define what the 66 books are or just an short reminder for the reformed .Luther stares both solo fide and scriptura .I guess I should have a priest tell me what works I must do to make it to heaven just like the local Catholic church does .

40 days of life to protest abortion counts
Giving to the poor

I learned what sola scriptura was and why from an arp minister long before joining one arp church

I knew of it and not so much the details of why

what exactly are you on about here?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes.... Regeneration logically precedes faith.



No, God is the cause via regeneration the our faith. It is our faith which would not be exercised unless God first regenerated us.
Aside: I thought you use to ex-reformed. This is a crux doctrine. You should know this. I think you think you use to be reformed but possibly didn't understand this essential aspect.

The Bible says very clearly, that "regeneration" is to be "born-again", when the sinner is saved. Titus 3:5 is clear:

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

The word "regeneration", is from the Greek "παλινγενεσίας", which literally means "new-birth", which here is "salvation".

Are you saying that God first makes the sinner "born-again", and saved them, and then they are able to call upon Him to be saved again? This is reformed, unbiblical nonsense!

When the people who heard Peter preach in Acts 2, and were "cut to the heart" by what they heard, as they were "convicted" by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-10); they responded by saying, "what must we DO" (verse 37). Peter did not say to them, you have to DO nothing! Instead Peter tells them to "REPEENT....for the FORGIVENESS of their sins, and then they would receive the Holy Spirit". THIS is the "new-birth" THIS is Biblical REGENERATION, not the "reformed" teaching that is NOT in the Bible!

I have NEVER been part of the "reformed", as I would like to keep my sanity! 2

 

[SolaScriptura]

It doesn't matter what mood 'believe' is in. One must believe to be saved. That does not contradict (John 1:13).

And (John 1:12-13) is clear. Those that believe are not born-again by the will of man.

Of course there is no salvation without the human believing. Where did I say otherwise?

Quantrill

for a human to "believe", they must use THEIR WILL to do this!

 

[SolaScriptura]

There is the whole problem as some believe we have free-will and others do not so arguments are made with both sides. If we do not have free-will then we would be nothing more than puppets that God would control as one being evil and the other one Good and pleasing to Him. Just think about it for awhile.

these cannot "think" for themselves, as God has to do this for them!

 

[Quantrill]

for a human to "believe", they must use THEIR WILL to do this!

I disagree. If you 'choose' to believe, you don't believe.

these cannot "think" for themselves, as God has to do this for them!

We cannot believe of ourselves. God does have to do that for us. (Matt. 16:17) (Eph. 2:8)

And, we cannot think, reason, or will ourselves into belief. (John 1:13)

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

The verses in post #(6) are (Is. 14:24) (Ps. 135:6) (Gen. 45:4-5) (Gen. 50:20) (Acts 2:23)

Add to that (Acts 15:18). "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

The fall of Adam and Eve, of the human race had to be in the plan of God. To suggest otherwise is to have God having to react to something that was never part of His plan.

If God didn't plan on the fall of Adam and Eve, why did He put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Why did He let satan have access to the garden? Or did satan sneak in without God knowing about it?

When God asked Adam, "Where art thou?", did He really not know where Adam was? Is He stumbling around in the garden looking under the trees and foilage unable to find him?

Mankind in the Garden was not the goal of God for man. The fall of man was part of the plan of God to obtain that goal. The goal of God was the very place He has brought fallen and redeemed man to. True sons and daughters of God born of Him. (John 12:24) "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

And, all that God does is for His glory. That is as it should be. It can be no other way. Thus the fall of Adam and Eve as part of the plan of God, was indeed for His glory. The fall of Adam and Eve, as part of that plan, which included their sin, was indeed for the glory of God.

In my opinion, anything less than this, and God is not God. He would be just a god having to react to things which he never intended. He would be just another spirit being in a contest with satan and hoping he can salvage part of his plan.

Quantrill

Hi Quantrill

I often wonder why God made us.
Did He create beings that He hated, most of which He would destine to hell - through no fault of their own, and that He would love just the part of His beings that HE chose would believe and love Him.
I know God is beyond our total understanding -- but He gave us enough information to know Him (which is the purpose for the bible) and the above just doesn't ring true to the God of the bible. It does not sound like a God of love, and John states that God IS love, and Jesus certainly acted that way.

What I learned is that God does not need us...He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient in all, or He could not be the creator.
God, being love itself, made beings that could love, honor and serve Him.
In order for these beings to love Him freely, they had to have free will.

Even Calvin believed Adam and Eve had free will but lost it in the fall.

In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life....

Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book One
Chapter 15
Paragraph 8

(I'm not one to debate with the likes of John Calvin,,,but is the above sentence correct? Weren't Adam and Eve created with immortality?
So why would they have to choose eternal life?)

So God knew man would fall...But He still wanted His finest creation to come to pass (humanity).
So He destinated the solution to this problem.
This, indeed, He did predestine.

This shows a God that is a creator,
a loving God that wanted to share His love,
a love that is freely willing and thus can be accepted.

If this is not true,,,then God created us to toy with us and He is not a God to be worshipped.

On to post no. 44 later on today...

 

[SolaScriptura]

I disagree. If you 'choose' to believe, you don't believe.



We cannot believe of ourselves. God does have to do that for us. (Matt. 16:17) (Eph. 2:8)

And, we cannot think, reason, or will ourselves into belief. (John 1:13)

Quantrill

So God believes for the sinner and also repents for them. We all must be dumb machines!

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed. The verses were directed to you who apparently thinks God is not omniscient (a stunning revelation ... more than your doctrine of salvation without knowing of Christ)

Aside: In post #30 I addressed the WCF question.



Reasonable I suppose. Sounds like you're supporting the WCF statement stating God was pleased to allow evil to enter the world by mentioning other evil events that GOd use for his purposes and glory. But this as I recall contradicts other posts you made on this thread not to mention the you don't think God is omniscient thus implying He might not know what the consequences of man's creation in reference to evil might occur ... so I am totally confused. I don't see the relevance of many of your verses. I'm confused.

I think most of us know the omniscient of God.

Let me ask you, Did God create Lucifer in order to destroy man? What pleasure would God have in something that repented Him to have created?

No, I do not support man made creeds that come about by their own doctrines that derived from Augustine and not of God.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Are you saying that God first makes the sinner "born-again", and saved them, and then they are able to call upon Him to be saved again?

Bingo ... we have a winner.

This is reformed, unbiblical nonsense!

Lacks foundation. I can, without foundation, similarly state: SolaScriptura is spouting unbiblical nonsense; it is an unsubstantiated conclusion.

I have NEVER been part of the "reformed", as I would like to keep my sanity!

Ah, my mistake.

 

[GodsGrace]

Bingo ... we have a winner.



Lacks foundation. I can, without foundation, similarly state: SolaScriptura is spouting unbiblical nonsense; it is an unsubstantiated conclusion.


Ah, my mistake.

Unfortunately for you....
The rest of Christianity agrees with SolaScriptura .

He does NOT spout unbiblical nonsense --- you do happen to do that.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'll keep it simple this time.
The most evil event ever and God states: Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him [Christ]”.

This refers to God being pleased to have his Son murdered which is evil. Someone asks for proof the evil can please God, so here it is. I could go into more detail as to the aspect of this heinous event that pleased God, but I am keeping it simple.
Acts 4:27-28 and Acts 2:23 affirm that it was God's plan for this evil event to occur and Isaiah 53:10 affirms it pleased God. This parallels the WCF statement that it pleased God to have evil enter the world.

Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him [Christ]”.

Do you really think this was an evil act of God?

It pleased God to send His Son Christ Jesus into the world that by His sacrifice, death and resurrection others can have eternal life in all who will believe in Christ Jesus, John 3:16-17.

What was evil about God's plan of salvation through His only begotten Son Christ Jesus in whom He raised from the dead and now sits at the right hand of God? I certainly do not see this as evil or God murdering Him.