The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[Fastfredy0]

for a human to "believe", they must use THEIR WILL to do this!

Agreed. We argue that God is the cause of you willingly believing the gospel message via regeneration. Regeneration precedes faith logically. We believe God's will is superior to our, him being all knowing and all wise and all powerful. Thus, we feel God will be done on earth as it is done in heave. You, on the other hand promote man's will and freedom over God's.
So, God does not believe for us and repent for us; rather, His will changes our disposition via regeneration to cause our will to believe and repent. We do the believing and repenting which are the instruments of our salvation. God is the one who, via regeneration causes the instruments of "faith" and "repentance" to function. Thus, as John 1:12-13 states and contradicts your theology ... it is God's will by which we are saved and no ours. We don't have a contradiction, you do.
We believe that in a tug of war of wills, God's always wins. Imagine that. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe when I get to heaven God will tell me I wasn't His adopted son by choice, I forced His hand via my will. My free will, the foundation of which is dualism and/or deism.

13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

ASIDE: I'm with Quantrill ... you rarely answer our questions.
The subject of YOUR thread is the theodicy of the WCF .... I again request your theodicy that is superior in your mind to that of the WCF. Tell us your doctrine of the "vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil". You're the author of this thread. Tell us what you think.
(Excepts continued 'crickets' (silence) in response.)

 

[for_his_glory]

Show us the Free Will verses in the bible to justify your worshiped doctrine.

Here are just a few verses about our freewill choice:

The fall by Adam and Eve's freewill choice to disobey God.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did

Freewill to choose life or death
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Choose whom you will serve - freewill
Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Come unto me - freewill choice
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him [Christ]”.

Do you really think this was an evil act of God?

You missed my point. The subject is the WCF theodicy that states God was “Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory”.

My statements were a defense of the WCF in the topic at hand.

Do you really think this was an evil act of God?

... I don't know what you mean by this statement as it lacks specifics. It could be interpreted as God committing an evil act which is NOT what I am saying. ... the murder of Chirst is an evil act that was planned by God ... this is plainly taught in Acts 2:23 and Acts 4:27-28. (Aside: I know you don't believe God is all knowing, so to limit that objection I am giving an example of something God says He knew before hand)

Back to the subject at hand ... The thread, to some extent, seems to question God's plan to order their [Adam's] sin to his own glory” I used Acts 2:23 and Acts 4:27-28 to prove God plans, at least to some extent, evil events and therefore God's planning of Adam's sin cannot be denied on the premise that God does not plan evil events. Christ, who is God, was glorified, at least partially, because of God's planned murder of His Christ. Thus we have and analogous situation to Adam's where God plans evil and is glorified by evil. (This is not to say God is in any way evil.)
Aside: This is a theodicy, and evil always gets into the mix.

Finally, I used Isaiah's statement that it PLEASED God to bruise Him to validate the WCF's use of the word PLEASED in connections to God's plan to allow evil.
So, the WCF's statement is, at least to some extent, plausible as shown by analogous scripture.

Aside: I did not speak to the work ALLOWED used by the WCF. My theodicy varies from the WCF in the use of that word.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Here are just a few verses about our freewill choice:

Well, I give you applause for making the attempt. You didn't define FREE WILL so I will have to use my definition.
Free Will is the ability to self determine; God has NO influence.

The fall by Adam and Eve's freewill choice to disobey God.

There is nothing in these verses saying God had no influence. There is nothing in these verses saying what caused Adam to decide this way or that. We do know God created Adam and that includes Adam's will and therefore God is in control of said will. There is nothing in the verses saying God made Adam's will independent of God.

Freewill to choose life or death
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I agree they have a choice. This does not mean they can decide uninfluenced by God. They also have the choice to fly or not but God has given them the will to never do so. He done the opposite.
10 As it is written and forever remains written, “There is none righteous [none that meets God’s standard], not even one. 11 “There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God.
These verses speak of a choice, but not a FREE CHOICE as 100% of billions of people ALL make the same choice.

Choose whom you will serve - freewill

Same Answer. I could offer you $1M if you head your head underwater for an hour. Again, because you show a verse with choice you assume it is a choice FREE from God's influence. There is nothing in the verse addressing the adjective FREE as it relates to FREE CHOICE.

Come unto me - freewill choice

ditto

Aside: It is estimated the 25 - 40 of humans never reached the age of accountability. How do they exercise your doctrine of FREE WILL?

 

[Quantrill]

Hi Quantrill

I often wonder why God made us.
Did He create beings that He hated, most of which He would destine to hell - through no fault of their own, and that He would love just the part of His beings that HE chose would believe and love Him.
I know God is beyond our total understanding -- but He gave us enough information to know Him (which is the purpose for the bible) and the above just doesn't ring true to the God of the bible. It does not sound like a God of love, and John states that God IS love, and Jesus certainly acted that way.

What I learned is that God does not need us...He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient in all, or He could not be the creator.
God, being love itself, made beings that could love, honor and serve Him.
In order for these beings to love Him freely, they had to have free will.

Even Calvin believed Adam and Eve had free will but lost it in the fall.

In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life....

Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book One
Chapter 15
Paragraph 8

(I'm not one to debate with the likes of John Calvin,,,but is the above sentence correct? Weren't Adam and Eve created with immortality?
So why would they have to choose eternal life?)

So God knew man would fall...But He still wanted His finest creation to come to pass (humanity).
So He destinated the solution to this problem.
This, indeed, He did predestine.

This shows a God that is a creator,
a loving God that wanted to share His love,
a love that is freely willing and thus can be accepted.

If this is not true,,,then God created us to toy with us and He is not a God to be worshipped.

On to post no. 44 later on today...

You say it doesn't sound like the God of love. Why?

And why did you not respond to the questions I asked? You simply, as SolaSriptura does, give a general statement and pass over all that was asked. In other words, you ignored it.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

So God believes for the sinner and also repents for them. We all must be dumb machines!

No, just helpless when it come to the faith that saves.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed. We argue that God is the cause of you willingly believing the gospel message via regeneration. Regeneration precedes faith logically. We believe God's will is superior to our, him being all knowing and all wise and all powerful. Thus, we feel God will be done on earth as it is done in heave. You, on the other hand promote man's will and freedom over God's.
So, God does not believe for us and repent for us; rather, His will changes our disposition via regeneration to cause our will to believe and repent. We do the believing and repenting which are the instruments of our salvation. God is the one who, via regeneration causes the instruments of "faith" and "repentance" to function. Thus, as John 1:12-13 states and contradicts your theology ... it is God's will by which we are saved and no ours. We don't have a contradiction, you do.
We believe that in a tug of war of wills, God's always wins. Imagine that. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe when I get to heaven God will tell me I wasn't His adopted son by choice, I forced His hand via my will. My free will, the foundation of which is dualism and/or deism.

13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

ASIDE: I'm with Quantrill ... you rarely answer our questions.
The subject of YOUR thread is the theodicy of the WCF .... I again request your theodicy that is superior in your mind to that of the WCF. Tell us your doctrine of the "vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil". You're the author of this thread. Tell us what you think.
(Excepts continued 'crickets' (silence) in response.)

This is not fare of you to say such things against what another believes. We have showed countless scriptures that speak about freewill, but just because it only uses the word "will" on our part of believing or not, it is still a choice we make. God is not going to force anyone to accept His free gift of grace through Christ Jesus, but is longsuffering and patient

Who are the "we" you refer to and where is it found there is a tug of war of wills? What you teach are the teachings of Augustine that Calvin came to believe, but yet only a mans doctrine, a man's creed that tries to make scripture line up with what he has taught.

The "we" on the other hand are solo scripta as we believe for what God has already spoken and had the Prophets and Apostles to write of what God gave to Jesus to speak and do. Did you ever read in scripture where God or Jesus forced anyone to be, or did He said that "whosoever believes".

Calvin is no different then Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, and so many others that have lead many astray by their own ideologies, theories, doctrines and creeds.

These are discussions as we discuss that of what we believe and agree on, or the indifferences that we do not agree on as we share scripture, not man's doctrines and theories.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9. But, whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:16. How do we believe? It's by faith. And how does faith come? By hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17.

The word of God has gone forth since the beginning of creation and will continue unto the coming of the Lord. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism and I will add, one doctrine that is Christ and what He has already taught. It would do us all well to start believing in what Christ has already taught in the OT and NT instead of believing every theory, creeds and doctrines of man.

 

[for_his_glory]

I disagree. If you 'choose' to believe, you don't believe.



We cannot believe of ourselves. God does have to do that for us. (Matt. 16:17) (Eph. 2:8)

And, we cannot think, reason, or will ourselves into belief. (John 1:13)

Quantrill

Are we so incapable that God has to believe for us..................wow!!!

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 for the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.
(Verses for livinf water, John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22)

Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as He spoke Gods word (John 12:44-50 living water) and the Prophets and Apostles wrote and testified of what Jesus taught verbally.

It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. It all comes by faith in believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world.

I believe sola scripture is plain enough without man adding to or taking away from it with their own doctrines, theologies and creeds.

 

[Quantrill]

Are we so incapable that God has to believe for us..................wow!!!

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 for the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.
(Verses for livinf water, John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22)

Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as He spoke Gods word (John 12:44-50 living water) and the Prophets and Apostles wrote and testified of what Jesus taught verbally.

It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. It all comes by faith in believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world.

I believe sola scripture is plain enough without man adding to or taking away from it with their own doctrines, theologies and creeds.

Wow.

Quantrill

 

[jaybo]

Personally I don't consider that people need to subscribe to some person's doctrine such as the Westminster confession of faith. We are not parrots! I am personally capable of reading and understanding the doctrine so clearly taught in the Bible, and I assume that most other adults are capable of the same thing.

Beyond that, why do we even need formal rituals? It is the "spiritual aroma" of the Old Covenant, but Jesus was a rural carpenter who taught many, many people in His travels the way to live that pleases God. Gathering together in some massive building, dressed in our "Sunday best", all singing in unison and repeating canned phrases, then listening silently to one "ordained" person preach her/his own interpretation of what God says and wants, is not what the New Covenant is about.

And believe me, I know. I was a church elder who both led and participated in such rituals, until God showed me the better way.

We are God's own adopted children, not a theatre audience.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, I give you applause for making the attempt. You didn't define FREE WILL so I will have to use my definition.
Free Will is the ability to self determine; God has NO influence.


There is nothing in these verses saying God had no influence. There is nothing in these verses saying what caused Adam to decide this way or that. We do know God created Adam and that includes Adam's will and therefore God is in control of said will. There is nothing in the verses saying God made Adam's will independent of God.


I agree they have a choice. This does not mean they can decide uninfluenced by God. They also have the choice to fly or not but God has given them the will to never do so. He done the opposite.
10 As it is written and forever remains written, “There is none righteous [none that meets God’s standard], not even one. 11 “There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God.
These verses speak of a choice, but not a FREE CHOICE as 100% of billions of people ALL make the same choice.



Same Answer. I could offer you $1M if you head your head underwater for an hour. Again, because you show a verse with choice you assume it is a choice FREE from God's influence. There is nothing in the verse addressing the adjective FREE as it relates to FREE CHOICE.


ditto

Aside: It is estimated the 25 - 40 of humans never reached the age of accountability. How do they exercise your doctrine of FREE WILL?

Like I said, the whole thing is about Calvinism vs the word of God and I have given all I can to this topic so will bow out for now as none of us are going to agree with each other anyway so I will no longer waste my time and effort.

God bless you and yours.

 

[OzSpen]

Show us the Free Will verses in the bible to justify your worshiped doctrine.

FF,

When we ask, ‘What is the nature of free will or free choice?’ we may be asking: How long is a piece of string in theological terms? If we are going to answer this question with biblical accuracy, we will need to ask further questions about:

1. Free will / free choice and the power of God (see Isa 45:11-13; 46:4; Jer 32:16-44; Acts 4:24-31);
2. Free choice and the decrees of God (Rom 8:28; Eph 1:9, 11; 3:11);
3. Free choice and the salvation of human beings (Tit 2:11; Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:3; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 16:31; 17:30; Phil 1:39; 1 Jn 3:23);
4. Free choice as it is related to God’s providence (Jas 4:2);
5. Free choice and God’s foreknowledge (Rom 8:29-30; 2 Cor 6:1-2; 1 Pt 1:1-2);
6. Free choice and a human being’s moral nature (Jn 1:12-13; 7:17; Rom 3:26; Heb 3:7-8, 15; 4);
7. Free choice and Adam’s original sin (the origin of the sin of the human race) [Gen 3:1-8; Rom 5:12-19; 1 Cor 15:21-22; 1 Tim 2:13-14];
8. Free choice and human depravity (Deut 6:4-5; Matt 22:35-38; Rom 2:14; 7:18; 8:14; 2 Tim 3:4);
9. Free choice and eternal security/perseverance of the saints (Jer 3:12, 14, 22; Hos 14:4; Mt 24:13; Mk 4:16-17; 7:21-23; Jn 6:66-67; 13:10-11; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31; 2 Pt 2:20-22; 1 Jn 2:19) [listed in Thiessen 1949:524].

References

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is not fare of you to say such things against what another believes. We have showed countless scriptures that speak about freewill, but just because it only uses the word "will" on our part of believing or not, it is still a choice we make. God is not going to force anyone to accept His free gift of grace through Christ Jesus, but is longsuffering and patient

Again, you don't define FREE WILL. If free will is defined as an unforced choice to believe salvificly then I agree. (maybe you want to use the libertarian definition... you don't say)
I agree we freely choose. But, without God's intervention we all freely choose to not believe. You can't present any scripture saying we can choose to believe free of God's intervention. I grant we choose, it our will, we aren't forced ... but we all chose what we desire most and that is hell due to our sin nature unless God's intervenes (regeneration). When is comes to verses saying WHY WE CHOSE to believe they state it is God's work and not ours (i.e. John 1:12-13 and there are no verses stating we chose to believe independent of God's influence. You just list verses showing we freely chose and not WHY!

Aside: Yeah, I know you believe one can believe without hearing of Christ and if that were true you might have a valid point to make. But scripture says we cannot be saved with knowledge of Christ.
John 14:6; Acts 4:12; John 12:48; Romans 3:10; Romans 3:21-24.

What you teach are the teachings of Augustine that Calvin came to believe, but yet only a mans doctrine, a man's creed that tries to make scripture line up with what he has taught.

What's your point? I agree, there are men that teach God's word. You don't agree as to which men are correct. So, what's your point? That fact that men teach what the bible says does not mean they got it wrong (or right for that matter). This is a red herring.

The "we" on the other hand are solo scripta as we believe for what God has already spoken and had the Prophets and Apostles to write of what God gave to Jesus to speak and do. Did you ever read in scripture where God or Jesus forced anyone to be, or did He said that "whosoever believes".

Calvin was Sola Scriptura. What's your point?
The last sentence has a grammar issue so not sure what you mean to say. (I wish I had a nickel for every typo, etc. I make ) Aside: whosoever believes (I assume John 3:16) ... I agree ... whoever believes (because God first regenerated them) is saved.
Hmmm, maybe since you don't believe God knows all things the WHOSOSEVER infers that God says I don't know who will believe so from the entire group, whomsoever believes inferring His ignorance of which individuals will believe.

Explain John 1:12-13 that says one is saved by the will of God and NOT the will of man .... here is a verse that gets to the WHY we decide to believe.

Calvin is no different then Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, and so many others that have lead many astray by their own ideologies, theories, doctrines and creeds.

I can say the same about you and me ... I don't see what point you are trying to make. If you are saying man (you and I) are fallible in our interpretation ... that's a given.

For_his_ glory and Fastfredy0 is no different then Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, and so many others that have lead many astray by their own ideologies, theories, doctrines and creeds. Again, what point are you trying to make?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9. But, whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:16. How do we believe? It's by faith. And how does faith come? By hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17.

This contradicts your other statement saying we don't need to hear the word of God to be saved. Remember, I said approx. 2 billion people currently are alive and not heard of Christ. If God wanted all to have a chance at salvation He is not giving billions any opportunity to do so. This contradicts the your intention of the use of 2 Peter 3:9.
(aside: I won't bother getting into the various meanings of "ALL"

The word of God has gone forth since the beginning of creation and will continue unto the coming of the Lord. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism and I will add, one doctrine that is Christ and what He has already taught.

Agreed. Well, I wouldn't use the word doctrine (teaching) in the singular, but that's a minor point.

It would do us all well to start believing in what Christ has already taught in the OT and NT instead of believing every theory, creeds and doctrines of man.

It is good to believe in the doctrines of men that correctly discern God's word.
It is bad to believe in the doctrines of men that incorrectly discern God's word.

To the extent a doctrine of man correctly teaches as the bible teaches it is good to follow that teaching.
It is NOT GOOD to NOT FOLLOW the teachings of men who correctly teach as the bible teaches.

I don't see what point you are trying to make. It is obvious we should follow God's word and that is our only infallible source of truth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Again, you don't define FREE WILL. If free will is defined as an unforced choice to believe salvificly then I agree. (maybe you want to use the libertarian definition... you don't say)
I agree we freely choose. But, without God's intervention we all freely choose to not believe. You can't present any scripture saying we can choose to believe free of God's intervention. I grant we choose, it our will, we aren't forced ... but we all chose what we desire most and that is hell due to our sin nature unless God's intervenes (regeneration). When is comes to verses saying WHY WE CHOSE to believe they state it is God's work and not ours (i.e. John 1:12-13 and there are no verses stating we chose to believe independent of God's influence. You just list verses showing we freely chose and not WHY!

Aside: Yeah, I know you believe one can believe without hearing of Christ and if that were true you might have a valid point to make. But scripture says we cannot be saved with knowledge of Christ.
John 14:6; Acts 4:12; John 12:48; Romans 3:10; Romans 3:21-24.


What's your point? I agree, there are men that teach God's word. You don't agree as to which men are correct. So, what's your point? That fact that men teach what the bible says does not mean they got it wrong (or right for that matter). This is a red herring.



Calvin was Sola Scriptura. What's your point?
The last sentence has a grammar issue so not sure what you mean to say. (I wish I had a nickel for every typo, etc. I make ) Aside: whosoever believes (I assume John 3:16) ... I agree ... whoever believes (because God first regenerated them) is saved.
Explain John 1:12-13 that says one is saved by the will of God and NOT the will of man .... here is a verse that gets to the WHY we decide to believe.



I can say the same about you and me ... I don't see what point you are trying to make. If you are saying man (you and I) are fallible in our interpretation ... that's a given.

For_his_ glory and Fastfredy0 is no different then Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, and so many others that have lead many astray by their own ideologies, theories, doctrines and creeds. Again, what point are you trying to make?



This contradicts your other statement saying we don't need to hear the word of God to be saved. Remember, I said approx. 2 billion people currently are alive and not heard of Christ. If God wanted all to have a chance at salvation He is not giving billions any opportunity to do so. This contradicts the your intention of the use of 2 Peter 3:9.
(aside: I won't bother getting into the various meanings of "ALL"



Agreed. Well, I wouldn't use the word doctrine (teaching) in the singular, but that's a minor point.



It is good to believe in the doctrines of men that correctly discern God's word.
It is bad to believe in the doctrines of men that incorrectly discern God's word.

To the extent a doctrine of man correctly teaches as the bible teaches it is good to follow that teaching.
It is NOT GOOD to NOT FOLLOW the teachings of men who correctly teach as the bible teaches.

I don't see what point you are trying to make. It is obvious we should follow God's word and that is our only infallible source of truth.

like I said, I am done with this topic as you can argue your points all you want and believe as you want, but no one can force their beliefs on others when what they believe comes against scripture.

 

[Delete_me]

Back to the OP:

It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory.

I understand SolaScriptura's issue with it; and hence, this thread. Let me posit this interpretation: if you remove the "it pleased God" and put in "God chose...", you get:

"God chose to allow them to sin, because in His wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to be His own glory."

I believe this to be the intent. God very much could have not allowed man to sin in the first place. No argument there. But He did not. That can be confusing--after all, how can a good and perfect God allow man to do that? But inarguably, that is indeed what happened.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Like I said, the whole thing is about Calvinism vs the word of God

... or as I say: "the whole thing is about non-Calvinism vs the word of God".

Non-Calvinism or Calvinism is not the issue. WHAT IS TRUTH as determined by Sola Scriptura is what counts.

I don't think you offered an alternative theodicy to that of the WCF. That is the theme of the thread. Give us your vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil and thus why the WCF is inferior.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say it doesn't sound like the God of love. Why?

And why did you not respond to the questions I asked? You simply, as SolaSriptura does, give a general statement and pass over all that was asked. In other words, you ignored it.

Quantrill

I said in my post that I would reply to your post 44 later on in my day.

See you in the morning.

 

[GodsGrace]

... or as I say: "the whole thing is about non-Calvinism vs the word of God".

Non-Calvinism or Calvinism is not the issue. WHAT IS TRUTH as determined by Sola Scriptura is what counts.

I don't think you offered an alternative theodicy to that of the WCF. That is the theme of the thread. Give us your vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil and thus why the WCF is inferior.

1. There's a difference between causing evil and allowing it.

Since you find it impossible to understand free will, I won't explain the difference.

2. Because we don't know the solution to the problem of theodicy does not mean we're allowed to invent one that is not biblical.

3. We cannot change the character of God to make it adhere to the teaching of a man.

 

[Quantrill]

I said in my post that I would reply to your post 44 later on in my day.

See you in the morning.

Sorry. I thought that was your reply to post #(44).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Hi Quantrill

I often wonder why God made us.
Did He create beings that He hated, most of which He would destine to hell - through no fault of their own, and that He would love just the part of His beings that HE chose would believe and love Him.
I know God is beyond our total understanding -- but He gave us enough information to know Him (which is the purpose for the bible) and the above just doesn't ring true to the God of the bible. It does not sound like a God of love, and John states that God IS love, and Jesus certainly acted that way.

What I learned is that God does not need us...He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient in all, or He could not be the creator.
God, being love itself, made beings that could love, honor and serve Him.
In order for these beings to love Him freely, they had to have free will.

Even Calvin believed Adam and Eve had free will but lost it in the fall.

In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life....

Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book One
Chapter 15
Paragraph 8

(I'm not one to debate with the likes of John Calvin,,,but is the above sentence correct? Weren't Adam and Eve created with immortality?
So why would they have to choose eternal life?)

So God knew man would fall...But He still wanted His finest creation to come to pass (humanity).
So He destinated the solution to this problem.
This, indeed, He did predestine.

This shows a God that is a creator,
a loving God that wanted to share His love,
a love that is freely willing and thus can be accepted.

If this is not true,,,then God created us to toy with us and He is not a God to be worshipped.

On to post no. 44 later on today...

You may depict what I am saying, as saying God is not love. But I am not saying that. If I talk about how God destroyed all the millions of people on the earth in Noah's day, can that be interpreted as the love of God?

Or can the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah be interpreted as the love of God?

If I talk about how God killed all the first born of Egypt during the exodus of Israel, can that be interpreted as the love of God?

What about the book of (Revelation)? The majority population of the earth will be destroyed by God. Is that to be interpreted as His love?

Better yet, look at the one act that describes completely the love of God. The crucifixion of Christ. (John 3:16) Why would God not come up with a better solution then the cruel death of God the Son to reveal His love? I mean, He is God.

Answer: God is a God of love. And anything He does reflects His love. We don't get to choose the things God can or cannot do to reflect His love. If God saves 3000, He is right and good and His love is displayed. If God destroyes 3000, He is right and good and His love is displayed.

When God will send the vast majority of mankind into the Lake of Fire forever, He is right and good and His love is displayed, because He is a God of love.

Are you saying that the God as I have described is not worthy of your worship and acceptance?

Quantrill