The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Davies]

Again, from verses as Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 the Christian is to be spotless, holy and blameless. So can you explain to me by your theology how a Christian who occasionally sins can be spotless, holy and blameless?

He Ernest,

I'd like to refer you to my post in the thread labeled 'obey God or never enter heaven'.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45494&page=16

Post #229

It's an excerpt from a sermon that Charles Spurgeon gave, and it explains justification in his own terms. I think it comes down to understanding what substitutionary atonement means. Jesus is our substitute on the cross. He paid for our sins, but not only is our unrighteousness imputed to Jesus, His righteousness is imputed to us. I know we have a disagreement on the nature of what our works stand for, but I think after reading the Spurgeon excerpt, you'll understand my position.

faith + works is not = justification, rather, faith = justification + works

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

He Ernest,

I'd like to refer you to my post in the thread labeled 'obey God or never enter heaven'.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45494&page=16

Post #229

It's an excerpt from a sermon that Charles Spurgeon gave, and it explains justification in his own terms. I think it comes down to understanding what substitutionary atonement means. Jesus is our substitute on the cross. He paid for our sins, but not only is our unrighteousness imputed to Jesus, His righteousness is imputed to us. I know we have a disagreement on the nature of what our works stand for, but I think after reading the Spurgeon excerpt, you'll understand my position.

faith + works is not = justification, rather, faith = justification + works

- Davies

Of course Spurgeon was wrong. From Spurgeon's example, we all have sinned and are in prison. Yet how does Christ decide which prisoners He will take their guilt upon Him and which one He will not? Does He take the guilt of all and we have Universalism? Or is it by randomness? No, those prisoners that obey Christ are the ones that Christ will save per Heb 5:9

Above you have:

faith = justification + works

Note how your initial faith (in red) is alone and being alone without works it is dead (faith without works is dead being alone - James) and a dead faith cannot produce justification or works. So your salvation equation begins and ends with a dead faith and can go nowhere from there.


Rom 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."



From verse 17 and 18 Paul said the Romans OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of doctrine, then made free from sin (justified). Their obedience came before justification.

So the Romans had faith + obedience = justification

In Verse 16 a question I ask many times but rarely ever get a response. In verse 16 Paul said you serve one of two masters, you either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience UNTO righteousness


I serve #2. Which do you serve?

(Unfortunately some people's theology has ruled out #2 for them leaving them with a not so good option)

 

[Eugene]

Knowing that I should just keep out of this because I've learned to agree with the cliché that "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still," and there will be no change as you ask:

How does Christ decide which prisoners He will take their guilt upon Him and which one He will not? Does He take the guilt of all and we have Universalism? Or is it by randomness?"

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But: John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The answer to your dilemma is Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son . . What we must recognize is the fact we who would believe were know unto God before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, and according to Philippians 4:3 our names are written in the book of life . .

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Davies]

Of course Spurgeon was wrong. From Spurgeon's example, we all have sinned and are in prison. Yet how does Christ decide which prisoners He will take their guilt upon Him and which one He will not? Does He take the guilt of all and we have Universalism? Or is it by randomness? No, those prisoners that obey Christ are the ones that Christ will save per Heb 5:9

Above you have:

faith = justification + works

Note how your initial faith (in red) is alone and being alone without works it is dead (faith without works is dead being alone - James) and a dead faith cannot produce justification or works. So your salvation equation begins and ends with a dead faith and can go nowhere from there.


Rom 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."



From verse 17 and 18 Paul said the Romans OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of doctrine, then made free from sin (justified). Their obedience came before justification.

So the Romans had faith + obedience = justification

In Verse 16 a question I ask many times but rarely ever get a response. In verse 16 Paul said you serve one of two masters, you either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience UNTO righteousness


I serve #2. Which do you serve?

(Unfortunately some people's theology has ruled out #2 for them leaving them with a not so good option)

Hi Ernest,

In my equation faith = justification + works I think 'works' very well. The faith isn't without works because the saving faith produces works. If it was faith + works, to me, this would indicate an earning of salvation of which I know there is no way to do. How can a guilty person be justified. Without God, it is impossible. Even Jesus stated this in Matthew 19:26. God does not justify our behavior after salvation, He justifies the person. A justified person will produce the fruit of the Spirit because he abides in the vine. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him, John 15:5.

I still think a confusion persists between what works constitute; between justification and sanctification. I have no problem with you believing that Spurgeon was wrong, but if I were to list the most prominent Christians whose works survived for us to read, I think you will find the common understanding that faith is the justifying means. You would have to say that John Bunyan was wrong too. Of course we have a history of godly men who were martyred for justification by faith. I can think of the Catholic and Mormon churches who adhere to your position. This issue of justification was the crux of the reformation movement in the dark ages of which the Gospel continue to shine in. I'm not sure the dark age has ended, but at least we have the Gospel light. When the Catholic church lost control of its monopoly on the Scriptures, people were able to read for themselves and were able to dispel the false doctrines the Catholic church was supporting. Yes, this freedom to read the Scriptures has created many false doctrines from people who have read the Bible to include Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and likely hundreds of others. I believe that has happened because the people studying the Bible have exercised their intellectual freedom at the exclusion of God's authority inherent in the Scriptures. It's the same old scene that happened in the beginning. Adam did not heed God's authority of which he was not able to justify himself through his actions even if he lived a perfect life after his sin because of his guilt. Eve fell because she did not have faith in what God had said being deceived by the serpent who ask, 'Did God say.'

Working your way to heaven is building your tower of Babel.

I think it's interesting that one can accept the imputation of his/her sins to Jesus, but not His righteousness to them.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Good Afternoon,

Here is another example of justification by faith.

It requires, indeed, but little attention to mark how expressly the Scriptures maintain our justification on the sole merit of our Redeemer, while they as fully maintain the necessity of our sanctification, or holiness, by his Spirit. - John Newton, The Works of the Rev. John Newton …To which are Prefixed Memoirs of His Life, p. 88

In this instance, Newton doesn't say faith justifies, but the implication is that what we hear from the Scriptures, faith comes by hearing the Word of God, is justification is provided solely by the merit of Jesus. It would be correct to understand that Newton's position on justification would not include what we do because that would mean our merit would provided the justification. See, also, the Scriptures maintain the necessity of sanctification which is maintained not by our own will, but by the Spirit. This is consistent with Philippians 2:13, and many other passages of which I can't list right now because I'm running out of time.

- Davies

 

[BornAgain]

Good Afternoon,

Here is another example of justification by faith.

It requires, indeed, but little attention to mark how expressly the Scriptures maintain our justification on the sole merit of our Redeemer, while they as fully maintain the necessity of our sanctification, or holiness, by his Spirit. - John Newton, The Works of the Rev. John Newton …To which are Prefixed Memoirs of His Life, p. 88

In this instance, Newton doesn't say faith justifies, but the implication is that what we hear from the Scriptures, faith comes by hearing the Word of God, is justification is provided solely by the merit of Jesus. It would be correct to understand that Newton's position on justification would not include what we do because that would mean our merit would provided the justification. See, also, the Scriptures maintain the necessity of sanctification which is maintained not by our own will, but by the Spirit. This is consistent with Philippians 2:13, and many other passages of which I can't list right now because I'm running out of time.

- Davies

Brainwashed by Charles Haddon Spurgeon who was a British Particular Baptist preacher. Spurgeon remains highly influential among Christians of different denominations, among whom he is known as the "Prince of Preachers" Not biblical....

 

[Davies]

Brainwashed by Charles Haddon Spurgeon who was a British Particular Baptist preacher. Spurgeon remains highly influential among Christians of different denominations, among whom he is known as the "Prince of Preachers" Not biblical....

Hi BornAgain,

This excerpt was not from Charles Haddon Spurgeon, it was from the author of the hymn, Amazing Grace. I'm feeling your brotherly love.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Hi BornAgain,

This excerpt was not from Charles Haddon Spurgeon, it was from the author of the hymn, Amazing Grace. I'm feeling your brotherly love.

- Davies

Yea listen to this great evil he teaches!:eeeekkk


All the strength supplied to us by our gracious God is meant for service, not for wantonness or boasting. When the prophet Elijah found the cake baked on the coals, and the cruse of water placed at his head, as he lay under the juniper tree, he was no gentleman to be gratified with dainty fare that he might stretch himself at his ease; far otherwise, he was commissioned to go forty days and forty nights in the strength of it, journeying towards Horeb, the mount of God. When the Master invited the disciples to "Come and dine" with him, after the feast was concluded he said to Peter, "Feed my sheep"; further adding, "Follow me." Even thus it is with us; we eat the bread of heaven, that we may expend our strength in the Master’s service. We come to the passover, and eat of the paschal lamb with loins girt, and staff in hand, so as to start off at once when we have satisfied our hunger. Some Christians are for living on Christ, but are not so anxious to live for Christ. Earth should be a preparation for heaven; and heaven is the place where saints feast most and work most. They sit down at the table of our Lord, and they serve him day and night in his temple. They eat of heavenly food and render perfect service. Believer, in the strength you daily gain from Christ labour for him. Some of us have yet to learn much concerning the design of our Lord in giving us his grace. We are not to retain the precious grains of truth as the Egyptian mummy held the wheat for ages, without giving it an opportunity to grow: we must sow it and water it. Why does the Lord send down the rain upon the thirsty earth, and give the genial sunshine? Is it not that these may all help the fruits of the earth to yield food for man? Even so the Lord feeds and refreshes our souls that we may afterwards use our renewed strength in the promotion of his glory. -C. Spurgeon

How can anyone call this man, a man of God?

 

[heymikey80]

It's BOTH hearing and doing. One cannot do unless he first hears but upon hearing one must do what he has heard else be disobedient. If Abraham did not have to leave then what good was hearing about having to leave do for him? Nothing.

Missing the point I see again. The statement says what Abraham did do. You assert it's required to do so. I'm saying it's a result of believing.

Again, how are you addressing my view by arguing with some other view?

Mt 7:24,26 Christ, not me, made the doing a requirement.

Doing what Jesus says is wise, yes. It produces a soundness to life that keeps people from being swept away into fruitlessness.

The NT does not teach such a thing as death bed salvation. If I go into a coma and die in that coma then I will be judge by what I did or did not do Rom 2:6-11 prior to being in the coma.

Then everybody's sunk. Rom 2:12.

In fact, let's look at precisely what Paul is saying at Rom 2:12-13 "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Listen to what Paul is saying.

v. 12: Nobody wins. Everybody dies.
v. 13: the reason is simple: everybody has to do, and the only way to get by is to do the law.

Note the clear conclusion: nobody actually does the law.

And anyone who's an outlaw is going to perish.

So nobody gets by.

Nobody survives.

 

[Drew]

In fact, let's look at precisely what Paul is saying at Rom 2:12-13 "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Listen to what Paul is saying.

v. 12: Nobody wins. Everybody dies.
v. 13: the reason is simple: everybody has to do, and the only way to get by is to do the law.

Not necessarily. Paul could be saying in verse 12 that all those Gentiles (these are the ones "without "the law) who "sinned" in the sense that they were not transformed into the kind of person who does not habitually sin, will inded perish. And in verse 13, he could simply be saying "Yes, people will be judged on good works with salvation in the balance, and, in the case of the Jew (the Jew is the one "under the law", they will be judged by the Law of Moses.

You will probably say I am "reaching" in respect to verse 12. Well, maybe. But it is no less of a reach, I suggest, than having Paul say "the doers of the Law will be justifiied" while believing there are zero such persons. Competent writers do not make such statements.

I hope to post more on Romans 2 later. What do you think Paul is saying here:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Are you again going to say that Paul is saying something that is true of zero people - that Paul is giving us an "if you do X, then Y will result" statement, again believing that it is impossible to do X, and that Y is conferred on other grounds?

What competent thinker writes like that?

 

[heymikey80]

Not necessarily. Paul could be saying in verse 12 that all those Gentiles (these are the ones "without "the law) who "sinned" in the sense that they were not transformed into the kind of person who does not habitually sin, will inded perish. And in verse 13, he could simply be saying "Yes, people will be judged on good works with salvation in the balance, and, in the case of the Jew (the Jew is the one "under the law", they will be judged by the Law of Moses.

"by works of law shall no flesh be justified" -- Paul, Romans 3:20

Now, you can see the explicit fact of Paul's statement. "That's the way you get justification, Jewish people -- and nobody gets justified this way."

Paul writes this way, under the power of the Spirit of God. They're not "incompetent".

Or are you saying no Jewish person is ever justified? That wouldn't make a lot of sense given that Paul is a Jewish Christian.

 

[smaller]

I suggest, than having Paul say "the doers of the Law will be justifiied" while believing there are zero such persons. Competent writers do not make such statements.

That is exactly what Paul said.

 

[Eugene]

Not necessarily. Paul could be saying in verse 12 that all those Gentiles (these are the ones "without "the law) who "sinned" in the sense that they were not transformed into the kind of person who does not habitually sin, will inded perish. And in verse 13, he could simply be saying "Yes, people will be judged on good works with salvation in the balance, and, in the case of the Jew (the Jew is the one "under the law", they will be judged by the Law of Moses.

You will probably say I am "reaching" in respect to verse 12. Well, maybe. But it is no less of a reach, I suggest, than having Paul say "the doers of the Law will be justified" while believing there are zero such persons. Competent writers do not make such statements.

Drew, having not read enough of your thoughts presented to know for sure your position on Romans Chapter Two I will just ask: do you believe there are any Jews or Gentiles that can attain unto salvation by works? To me nothing presented by Paul in this chapter relates to the believer; it is presenting judgment against all unrighteousness. I do believe you are saying this also. Thanks.

 

[Davies]

That is exactly what Paul said.

Good afternoon smaller,

Here is your verse:
Romans 2:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;



Is there anyone here a doer of the law? I don't observe any. I don't even know any Christians who are doers of the law. There is only One doer of the law I know, and He has given me the free gift of His righteousness which reigns in life through the One, Romans 5:17.



Romans 5:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.




- Davies

 

[smaller]

Good afternoon smaller,
Here is your verse:
Romans 2:13
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Is there anyone here a doer of the law? I don't observe any. I don't even know any Christians who are doers of the law. There is only One doer of the law I know, and He has given me the free gift of His righteousness which reigns in life through the One, Romans 5:17.

Romans 5:18
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

- Davies

The free gift, the imputed righteousness, Grace, whatever Godly Eternal Spiritual matter there is....assuredly will never ever apply to the evil present or the works of sin in any of us.

The Law remains to show us this side of our present reality, Jew or Gentile.

All come under this DARK side of the facts of LAW and there is no escaping this FACT.

Simultaneously, any believer who is raised in Spiritual Understanding by the Same Holy Spirit that CONVICTS us of the bold red, will bring us also to FULFILL every single jot and tittle in that SAME LAW, SPIRITUALLY, while simultaneously being CONDEMNED under same.

It's quite interesting to say the least. Scripture has quite a few 'converse principles' deployed therein. They are tough nuts to crack.

I don't know if you ride big bikes. Have a couple of them myself. Many owners/riders do not even know the simplest principle of riding a big road bike.

Here's the principle: If you want to turn RIGHT, turn LEFT.

That's kinda how scripture works too.

If you are led to walk IN LIGHT, you will be LED in to face your own DARKNESS first.

Isaiah 42:16
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

When any believer sees this, all their disputes will fade away, and they will see BOTH SIDES of Gods Word Sword fully applies to them and all of His Words are fully applicable to THEM, personally. Yeah, even the BAD ONES.

If ya don't know how to ride, you'll WRECK.

s

 

[Drew]

"by works of law shall no flesh be justified" -- Paul, Romans 3:20

I am aware of this text. My entire line of argument, following NT Wright at least as I understand him, is that statements of this form are Paul's way of saying "justification is not based on being Jewish. (with the understanding that Jews doi the works of the law not to earn salvation, but rather in gratitude for justification conferred on purely ethnic grounds").

If this is correct, then there is no contradiction if Paul asserts that when it comes to the "good works" judgement of Romans 2, the standard by which the Jew will be judged is the Law of Moses.

We need to be aware of hidden assumptions. Although I suspect you will deny this, when someone says "justification is not based on doing the works of the Law of Moses", this can be read at least two ways:

1. you cannot earn justification by doing the "good works" that this Law prescribes;

2. you are not entitled to justification simply because you are Jewish, as such Jewishness is expressed by doing the works of the of Moses.

Based on some past interactions, I suspect you try to pre-emptively strike the second possibility as somehow illegitimate. Well, we'll see if you do that, and on what grounds.

 

[Drew]

Drew, having not read enough of your thoughts presented to know for sure your position on Romans Chapter Two I will just ask: do you believe there are any Jews or Gentiles that can attain unto salvation by works? To me nothing presented by Paul in this chapter relates to the believer; it is presenting judgment against all unrighteousness. I do believe you are saying this also. Thanks.

1. I believe Paul means what he says in 2:6-7: people will be given eternal life based on what they have done. And I would maintain, again, that no competent writer would say that eternal life will be granted in this way if he knows zero people will get life that way. This is the problem with the standard position on this - it makes Paul into an exceedingly misleading and incompetent writer, implying that people will get eternal life based on what they have done while believing no one will achieve this. I just cannot believe Paul is such a bumbler. So, yes, both Jews and Gentiles will get eternal life based on good works. And for reasons I have already given in many, many posts, I do not believe this in any ways conflicts with statements Paul makes about justification by faith.

2. I see no reason whatsover to imagine that Romans 2 is only about believers. To believe this, again, you have to imagine that Paul is an incompetent writer. Who would say "the doers of the law will be justified" if he knows that zero persons will be justified that way? I certainly would not. And Paul is a far more competent writer than I am.

This is the Achilles heels of the standard position - it casts Paul in the position of being an exceedingly confused writer, making all sorts of effectively untrue statements. More later.

I will ask you a question others seem to struggle with:

What do you think Paul is saying here:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Are you again going to say that Paul is saying something that is true of zero people - that Paul is giving us an "if you do X, then Y will result" statement, again believing that it is impossible to do X, and that Y is conferred on other grounds?

What competent thinker writes like that?

 

[Drew]

Hello heymikey80. Please answer the question I posed:

What do you think Paul is saying here:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Are you again going to say that Paul is saying something that is true of zero people - that Paul is giving us an "if you do X, then Y will result" statement, again believing that it is impossible to do X, and that Y is conferred on other grounds?

What competent thinker writes like that?

 

[Drew]

"Paul writes this way, under the power of the Spirit of God. They're not "incompetent".

This strikes me as a strange argument. Your position forces you to believe that when Paul writes this....

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

.....this will be true for zero people.

Or when he writes this:

...it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

.....this will be true for zero people.

Or when he write this:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

......precisely zero people will get life in this way.

Trying to escape from the puzzling-ness of this by suggesting that the Holy Spirit is behind it all strikes me as avoiding the force of the challenge.

 

[Eugene]

1. I believe Paul means what he says in 2:6-7: people will be given eternal life based on what they have done. And I would maintain, again, that no competent writer would say that eternal life will be granted in this way if he knows zero people will get life that way. This is the problem with the standard position on this - it makes Paul into an exceedingly misleading and incompetent writer, implying that people will get eternal life based on what they have done while believing no one will achieve this. I just cannot believe Paul is such a bumbler. So, yes, both Jews and Gentiles will get eternal life based on good works. And for reasons I have already given in many, many posts, I do not believe this in any ways conflicts with statements Paul makes about justification by faith.

2. I see no reason whatsover to imagine that Romans 2 is only about believers. To believe this, again, you have to imagine that Paul is an incompetent writer. Who would say "the doers of the law will be justified" if he knows that zero persons will be justified that way? I certainly would not. And Paul is a far more competent writer than I am.

This is the Achilles heels of the standard position - it casts Paul in the position of being an exceedingly confused writer, making all sorts of effectively untrue statements. More later.

I will ask you a question others seem to struggle with:

Thanks for your response Drew; I did misunderstand you. As to the scenario put forth to the Jew and Gentile my thinking is that if a person could fulfill all the law they would be justified, but as Romans 3:23 states: All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, thus it is impossible for any to ever achieve this.

As to your question concerning Romans 8:13, "For if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." I'll answer this as simple as it is to me that there is a sin unto death which does not include loss of our salvation that we have alone in Christ.

E.g. A sin unto death, but is Moses with God?

Numbers 20:12 . . . (Moses) Because ye believed me not.

Deuteronomy 32:50 Die in the mount whither thou goest up.

Deuteronomy 32:51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel.

Notice that Moses sin was unbelief. He was killed for it just as those destroyed in Jude :5 that believed not.