Ernest T. Bass
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes
- Thread starter Ernest T. Bass
- Start date
Ernest T. Bass
Member
It's BOTH hearing and doing. One cannot do unless he first hears but upon hearing one must do what he has heard else be disobedient. If Abraham did not have to leave then what good was hearing about having to leave do for him? Nothing.
Mt 7:24,26 Christ, not me, made the doing a requirement.
The NT does not teach such a thing as death bed salvation. If I go into a coma and die in that coma then I will be judge by what I did or did not do Rom 2:6-11 prior to being in the coma.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Wright is wrong.
Plain and simple.
Follow the logic of Paul's argument in Romans.
"You Jews pride yourselves as possessing the law, but even you know the scriptures say a man is judged by what he does, not by what he knows. Even those who don't have the law have the law of nature and the law of conscience by which they will judged according to what they do, not by what they know.
There is no justification for merely hearing the word of God. You take false comfort in being the chosen possessors and teachers of the law, but don't keep the law yourself. Do you think you'll escape the same condemnation of those you condemn as lawless when you don't obey either?
And more than that, no one keeps the law anyway. No one does right. The scriptures you cherish say so (Paul is always using the revered scriptures of the Jews to speak to Jews). So there is no justification by doing righteous works, for no one does right and good. All alike, Jew and gentile, are under the sentence of death for their sin.
All of this being true, there is the good news of the gospel. The good news of a righteousness that comes from God, not from the good you can not do anyway. And this righteousness from God comes through faith and trust in the blood of Christ to remove and forgive all unrighteousness."
No where in his discourse does he speak of the works that do justify, save for the work of believing in the forgiveness of God.
smaller
Member
Wright is similar in approach to many modern theologians.
He takes social/historical/scientific 'entirely subjective' studies and applies or 'runs scriptures' through his self prescribed sifters.
The general methodology is rife within theology. Superior intellectualism creating 'authority' of understandings. Nearly every sect is captured by such men. The so called 'smartest guys in the room' syndrome are not always as smart as they think they are BECAUSE they subjectively apply their intellect.
There are also theologians that can drive Mack Truck sized holes through every social/historical 'subjective' application with a few short stokes.
But hey, these guys all make their living doing what they do. They don't get Dr. degrees hung behind their desks without paying the price of intellectual applications.
And of course not everything they say and see is wrong just like not everything we say and see is right.
s
Davies
Member
Hi Ernest T. Bass,
This is where the confusion lies. I don't personally believe that faith is a work. It is a gift that you cannot take credit for. I personally do not believe that the Bible tells us that our 'work of faith' is what saves us. It is the belief=faith in Jesus Christ that justifies a man. To say work that faith produces justifies you, and not the righteousness that is from God, I believe is a great misunderstanding. I suppose Jesus was not your representative in his life, but only when he died on the cross? Our righteous deeds do not provide propitiation for the justice of God. There is only one life who God found His sacrifice to be acceptable because it was without sin. Our sacrifice does not even pay for one of our own sins which is why hell is eternal. An infinite crime requires an infinite punishment. There is no in between.
I wouldn't trust myself because I could deceive myself. But what I can trust is good enough to pay for my sin and provide for me what I could not accomplish myself to include faith, is the righteousness of Jesus Christ who fulfilled all righteousness.
NT Wright is outside of orthodoxy.
Romans 8:3-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The righteous requirements of the law have been fulfilled in us. We don't go around doing good deeds to be justified, we go around doing good deeds because we are justified.
Speaking of Abraham, Paul writes concerning, not only the Jew, but to us who are Gentiles:
Romans 4:20-25
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[a]
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Imputation is the cause of Jesus being delivered to the wrath of God, and to those who believe "in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead," we are imputed righteousness. Does the Bible say that Abraham was accounted righteousness when he believed, or when his faith was perfected in his obedience? His obedience only showed his faith to be of the saving type, of which the thief on the cross did not have opportunity to show.
Genesis 15:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:1-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
The view that faith is a work is incompatible with Romans 4:4. If faith is a work then it is counted as debt and not as grace.
Even Drew said that the position that Jethro has been explaining, as well as other, is plausible. " I am confident that your stated position is as much a coherent and plausible scenario as mine(- Drew, post #275)." I do believe that we can do good works because it is God who works in us to will and to do (Philippians 2:13), of which good deeds I wouldn't take credit for, but when a person says that 'I am justified by what I do,' that sounds like the person is taking credit for his justification. According to Romans 4:2, if faith is a work as you say, then Abraham has something to boast about, but the Bible says that Abraham has nothing to boast about before God. I would ask, post-salvation, what do you do with your sins? Do you separate your righteous deeds that 'justify you' with the unrighteous deeds that don't justify you? How do you separate them?
The reason a person goes to heaven is because there is no sin on his account, and because righteousness is imputed to all who believe on Him who raised Jesus Christ from the dead. We are saved in the same manner that Abraham was saved.
- Davies
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Drew
Member
Romans 2:6-7:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.†7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
I will address the rest of your post shortly.
But unless one re-writes what Paul has said in this text, he most certainly does believe that the basis, the crterion for getting eternal life is, yes, good works.
"according to" means what it means!!
Drew
Member
Where is text taken from - you appear to be quoting from a version with which I am not familiar.
Drew
Member
A question-begging argument - you presume the very thing you need to argue for: that faith to the exclusion of good works is the grounds on which eternal life is granted.
Your argument appears to be of this form:
1. James 2:18 asserts that the evidence for faith is good works;
2. We have other texts where statements of the form "people are justified by faith" are clearly made;
3. Therefore, the good works are only evidence that testifies to the reality of a faith that is the real grounds for justification.
Points 1 and 2 are correct, but point 3 is not the only possible conclusion to draw.
If it is indeed true that the person with faith alone is given the Spirit that then produces good works, it is in a very real sense correct to say people are justified by faith even while it is also true that there will be a coming judgement where eternal life is granted according to good works. From NT Wright:
I understand Paul’s doctrine of justification as eschatological, that is, the justification of the faithful in the present time is both the fulfilment of the long story of Israel and the anticipation of the eventual verdict to be delivered on the last day, as in Romans 2.1-16 and 8.1-30.
Let's be careful about matters of method. You may not agree with Wright in respect to this eschatological model of justification, but it clearly could be correct. So, please, do not simply "declare" this model to be incorrect, make a case.
Now if it is correct, then your argument fails, precisely because this particular model of justification allows for the following:
1. James 2:18 asserts that the evidence for faith is good works;
2. We have other texts where statements of the form "people are justified by faith" are clearly made;
3. These are eschatological statements, based on anticipation of what will happen in the future - the person whose places faith in Jesus will indeed (by the Spirit) producing saving good works that will be judged in the future; Since we know this in the present, we can speak of "justification by faith" and thereby not contradict the fact of a future justification by good works.
4. Therefore, good works are, just as Paul says in Romans 2 and elsewhere, the basis for final justification (as manifested by the awarding of eternal life).
5. Notwithstanding points 2,3, and 4, it is still true that good works are evidence of faith (as James says), but these good works also provide the criteria for final justification.
At the end of the day, the very real problem is that, in order to make your argument work, you need to rewrite both Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13, both of which, as actually written say this:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live
I still do not see how you can incorporate these statements without rewriting them.
I will keep nattering on about method: You cannot simply declare this model I am presenting to be wrong. And, to be fair, I cannot do the opposite - simply declare that Paul is thinking the way I am. We each have to make actual arguments.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
But faith is a work else it is a dead faith.
1 Thess 1:3 " Remembering without ceasing your work of faith..."
Gal 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
Mark 2:1-5 "When Jesus saw their faith...". In this context of Mk 2:1-5 what Jesus saw was the work those men did and their work is called faith.
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Rom 10:17 "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Faith comes by hearing the wrod of God, so faith is something one develops within his heart Rom 10:9 upon hearing the word. Faith is not a gift in the sense that God gives faith to some and withholds it from others for that would make God culpable for those that are faithless and lost.
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For me to be righteous God has to reckon me to be righteous so how does God decide whom He will and will not reckon as righteous? It is determined by who obeys God's commands/rightesousness. In Acts 10:35 Peter said those who worketh righteousness (obey God's commands) are accepted with God.
In Rom 6:16 Paul said you serve either one of two masters. You either serve 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness. I serve #2 unfortunately some people's theology rules out #2 leaving them only with #1. Note again how Paul said one obeys unto righteousness. Paul did NOT say "faith only unto righteousness" or "no works unto righteousness".
Davies said:
Christ died for all, grace has appeared to all men yet all will not be saved fro all will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9 to receive salvation/grace.
Davies said:
One must walk (obey) ) according to the spirit, faith only is not walking/obeying
Rom 8:1 "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
To be in Christ one must walk/obey the spirit by submitting to baptism, Gal 3:27
Faith only is not walking and cannot get one in Christ.
Davies said:
Rom 4:22 "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
What type of faith did Abraham have that was reckoned to him as righteousness?
Gen 12:1-4 cf Heb 8:11 - " By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. "
Abraham clearly had an obedient faith. Would Abraham ever been justified by God and recieve the promises had he not obeyed by leaving his land, home and kindred? No.
Davies said:
We just saw that prior to Gen 15:6 in Gen 12:1-4 Abraham had an obedient faith. That is why Gen 15:6 does NOT say "And he believed only in the Lord". In Gen chapters 13 & 14 on two or three occasion Abraham obeyed God by building altars to worship God.
To say that Abraham was saved by faith only in Gen 15:6 one must 1) ignore all the obedience Abraham's faith contained prior to Gen 15:6 and 2) one must assume that prior to Gen 15:6 that Abrham was a lost, unforgiven, condemned sinner yet nothing in Gen chapters 12, 13, 14 or 15 remotely suggests such a thing. As a matter of fact in Gen 15:1 God said to Abraham "Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward." This is NOT something that would be said to a condemned, unforgiven, lost sinner. So Abraham was already in a saved relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6.
Davies said:
Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
What type of work is it that would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?
If you could keep God's law perfectly and therefore be perfectly sinless then your reward is of debt and not of grace for a perfectly sinless person does not need grace so his reward is something owed him. So the type of work Paul has under consideration that the 'worker" in verse 4 is doing are work of merit in order to earn his reward and NOT obedient works. Obedient works can never make one's reward of debt and not of grace. "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.", Lk 17:10 So even after one obeys God's commands (does his duty) he is still an unprofitable servant who has not earned anything by doing all those things which God commanded.
So in the context of Rom 4:5 Abraham is an example of one who worketh not, that is, was one who did not do works of meirt in trying to earn salvation. But Abraham was one who believed in God that justifes the ungodly. Paul in verse 5 did NOT say "worketh not, but believeth only" for Abraham had an obedient belief. NT belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29 so if Paul was excluding all works in Rom 4:5 he contradicts himself by sayihg "worketh not, but works" since believing is a work.
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Davies
Member
You stated faith is something you do, right? It is the efficacious nature of faith, not that you do faith and then you can be justified.
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You quoted Romans which states, "faith cometh." How does the faith come?; by hearing the Word of God. Did you develop your faith or did God impart faith to you? It is the gift of God, lest any man should boast(Ephesians 2:8-9). Abraham didn't have anything to boast about before God(Romans 4:2). As a matter of Scripture, it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His pleasure(Philippians 2:13).
I think you're giving credit to man where credit isn't due when you say he develops his faith.
Hebrews 12:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
You say, "Faith is not a gift in the sense that God gives faith to some and withholds it from others for that would make God culpable for those that are faithless and lost," but what does God say? Romans 9:15-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
The matter of why some have faith and some do not is a mystery known only to God.
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Again, it is a mystery why some have faith and others do not. Why do we not come to the light?; because our deeds our evil. We don't come to Jesus on our own accord of which Romans 3:10-12 tells us painfully in unambiguous terms.
Romans 3:10-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
If Jesus treated us by what we have done and gave us justice, He would have never died on the cross for us. The problem is we don't obey God whether its a 'work' of faith or law.
You have to be under grace of by which the Author and Finisher of our faith is working in us to will and to do.
We have a common theme hear which is an emphasis on what man has to do, and not on what God has done and does(Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy).
I'll agree that one must obey to show his faith is from God, that is he walks according the the Spirit. This is sanctification, not justification.
This is obviously not true since the the thief on the cross never submitted to baptism, but this is the exception. Anyone with faith will recognize the command to be baptized. The motivation to be baptized is not to be right with God. Baptism outward symbol of what has taken place internally in the believer. A person gets baptized because he has been saved.
If Abraham didn't obey God, he would have shown that his faith was nothing.
Tell me in each instance that Abraham obeyed, did his obedience come first, or his faith? The instance of belief in Genesis 15:6, did God impute righteousness to Abraham before or after his obedience? I tell you, if Abraham had not been imparted faith, and trusted God, he would have never obeyed Him.
Romans 3:25
New King James Version (NKJV)
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
God also paid for Abraham's sins in the future. When a person is saved doesn't really matter. We are talking about the means by which God saves. That's a great assumption to say we know the legal status of Abraham when we aren't given all the details. I wouldn't have a problem with Abraham being saved earlier than Genesis 15:6, I just know it wasn't because of anything he did. When God told Abram to get out of the land of Ur, and leave his family, did he obey immediately? No. He went with his family to Haran. When Abraham went to Egypt during the famine, was Abraham the righteous man before God? No. He lied to save his own life in fear they would kill him for his wife. Abraham was no more righteous than Adam.
Again, I ask the question, now that you are saved, how do you separate your works of 'obedience' and your works of disobedience? Are you justified one moment, then not the next when you do something wrong? It sounds like you're saying that your salvation depends upon your perfect obedience, walking according to the Spirit, since your are justified by your 'works of obedience'.
What does Jesus say to do in John 6:29? "believe in Him whom He sent." Yet you would use the example of Abraham's works of 'obedience' to justify him. Faith and deeds done in the body are not equal, because God imputed righteousness to Abraham before his outward obedience could be seen. To think that somehow God would do it differently before Genesis 15:6 should be self-apparent. Again this belief that we have in Jesus that produces good works is given to us, and it justifies us. So, it is not of him who wills, or the one who runs, but solely by the mercy of God.
- Davies
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Ernest T. Bass
Member
I did give three passages from the bible that describes faith as a work.
Davies said:
Rom 10:17 does say faith comes by hearing and it does not say faith comes as a gift of God. Again, if one can only have faith as a gift that God gives, then those that are faithless and lost are so due to a failure on God's part to give them faith therefore making God culpable for the lost when He is not.
Matt 8:26 Jesus condemn those there for having "little faith". Again, if one can only get faith from God as a gift, then Jesus should have condemned God for not giving those people sufficient faith.
Rom 10:9 Paul said to 'believe in thine heart', so belief originates in the heart when one hears the word of God.
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In Eph 2:8,9 salvation is the gift not faith. Faith and gift do not match in gender.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1246
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In Heb 12:2 the word "our" was added by translators and should not be in the text. Definite article "the" comes before "faith" so Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. "The faith" refers to the NT system of faith found from Matthew to Revelation, as Paul is said to have preached 'the faith', Jude said to contend for 'the faith'.
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Jn 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."
It makes no sense to put a requirement on man to believe if that were impossible.
In Acts 16 Paul commanded the jailer to believe. Again, it makes no sense to command man to do something that it not possible. The imperative to the jailer implies that the jailer had within him both the ability and responsibility to believe.
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Rom 9:15 does not give the basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others. But we know from other Bible verses that the basis is obedience to God.
Heb 5:9 Jesus is the author of salvation to all them that obey Him.
2 Thess 1:8 God will have vengeance upon those that obey not the gospel of Christ
Since it is impossible for God to lie, these are two promises we can know for certain that God will deliver on.
Jer 18 speaks of the potter and the clay and Jer 18:8,10 says "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
So it is no mystery, as you suggested, as to why God has mercy on some and not others for again, obedience to God is the basis God uses. Why did God not have mercy upon Pharaoh but He did have mercy upon the king of Nineveh? For the king of Nineveh obeyed by repenting and Pharaoh disobeyed.
In Jonah 3 God said He would destroy Nineveh in 40 days. The king of Nineveh lead the city to repent and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not. "
Whether or not Nineveh obeyed God determined the course of action that God took therefore God did not act in some indiscrimantory, capricious, mysterious way in the matter. Again, it is no mystery that their obedience or lack thereof determined if God had mercy on them or not.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Okay, waaaaay too much stuff to read here for us busy brain surgeons, lol.
Bass, you have to get it out of your head that 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6) means that the faith that justifies stands alone. What it means is the faith all by itself does the justifying, not the works that justifying faith will, and must produce. If one's 'faith' can't show itself in what it does then it's not a faith that justified in the first place.
I have no problem calling 'faith' a work in order to bring the discussion to a place where 'works justification' people can understand the 'faith justification' argument.
Jesus called believing a 'labor'. Of course that 'work' differs from other work. Jesus is speaking figuratively. It's not hard to see the difference between the work of trusting in the blood of Christ to accomplish something (justification) and doing all other things to accomplish justification. Paul clearly distinguishes between the two--trusting and working.
You can either trust in God's forgiveness to be made righteous and no longer guilty before God, or you can trust that your good behavior and thinking makes you righteous and no longer guilty before God. Paul is very clear which one MAKES a person righteous. Faith and trust in God's forgiveness does that, not doing righteous things.
"...God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity..." (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)
It's impossible to remove sin guilt through doing righteous things. The cost for sin is your life...your blood! Good deeds can't atone for the death penalty. Only death can fulfill God's requirements for sin worthy of death. That's why Jesus' death is the grace of God for us who are guilty and why it's the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous. Righteous work is how we know we have been made righteous by the blood of Christ.
Bass, you have to get it out of your head that 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6) means that the faith that justifies stands alone. What it means is the faith all by itself does the justifying, not the works that justifying faith will, and must produce. If one's 'faith' can't show itself in what it does then it's not a faith that justified in the first place.
I have no problem calling 'faith' a work in order to bring the discussion to a place where 'works justification' people can understand the 'faith justification' argument.
Jesus called believing a 'labor'. Of course that 'work' differs from other work. Jesus is speaking figuratively. It's not hard to see the difference between the work of trusting in the blood of Christ to accomplish something (justification) and doing all other things to accomplish justification. Paul clearly distinguishes between the two--trusting and working.
You can either trust in God's forgiveness to be made righteous and no longer guilty before God, or you can trust that your good behavior and thinking makes you righteous and no longer guilty before God. Paul is very clear which one MAKES a person righteous. Faith and trust in God's forgiveness does that, not doing righteous things.
"...God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity..." (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)
It's impossible to remove sin guilt through doing righteous things. The cost for sin is your life...your blood! Good deeds can't atone for the death penalty. Only death can fulfill God's requirements for sin worthy of death. That's why Jesus' death is the grace of God for us who are guilty and why it's the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous. Righteous work is how we know we have been made righteous by the blood of Christ.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Heb 11:4 Abel is said to be righteous.
In Rom 3:10 Paul is quoting David and David was using hyperbole when He said none is righteous. In Psa 14:3 David writes "They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one." Yet in verse 5 David writes " There were they in great fear: for God [is] in the generation of the righteous." Who is this generation of the righteous if none are righteous?
Davies said:
Man's "willing and running" did not cause God to give man a plan of salvation to be saved through Christ for that plan came only from the grace of God. Yet that plan to be saved through Christ does require man's willing and running to be saved:
Jn 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine,..."
Rev 22:17 "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
Heb 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, "
1 Cor 9:24 "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."
Davies said:
FIrst, the thief was proimsed paradise while he and Christ were alive and living under the OT law, so the thief is not an example of NT salvation for us today.
Secondly, there is no proof that thief was NEVER baptized, for all we know he may have been one of those in Mk 1:5 that was baptized by John.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Davies said:
That is why faith alone is nothing for it is void of works. GOd told Abraham to leave his house, land and kindred and go to a land God would show him. If Abraham had faith only he would have just sat and did nothing but just think about leaving and just think about going to a land God would show him. His faith was nothing until it was acted upon by him leaving and going to where God told him to go
Davies said:
Abraham's faith inlcuded obedience, the two were not separate.
Abraham had a faithful obedience prior to Gen 15:6 so righteousness was reckoned to him after he obeyed. Do you deny Abraham was obedient prior to Gen 15:6? Was Abraham a condemned, unforgiven, lost soul prior to Gen 15:6?
Davies said:
I have heard it expressed that when Christ died on the cross His blood flowed both backwards and forwards. It flowed forward to us today that we can have our sins washed away when we obey Christ's gospel. It flowed backward to remit all the sins of those who lived under the OT. But who under the OT had thier sins remit by Christ's shed blood? The ones that OBEYED God as Abraham and John's parents Lk 1:6.
Davies said:
John wrote to Christians in 1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
So IF (conditonal word) the Christian continues to walk (present tense) in the light, then Christ's blood continues to cleanse (present tense) ALL sins.
So salvation is not conditional upon perfect obedience but it is dependant upon a continued walking in the light, a continued repenting of sins. If a Christian sins, as long as he keeps walking in the light his sins are all forgiven but if he quits walking in the light then his sins will not be cleansed away.
Above I mentioned John's parents, Lk 1:6, "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
How were they blameless when we know they sinned? From Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 we know the Christian is to be holy, blameless and spotless but how can he be this way if he occasionally sins? OBEDIENCE. If he obeys by walking in the light then Christ blood continues to cleanse away ALL sins making the Christian holy, spotless and blameless before God.
Davies said:
First, in the context of Jn 6:27-29 belief is the work Jesus told His listeners to do. So belief is a work. In v27 Jesus told the plainly and clearly to labour/work for the meat that endure unto everlasting ife.
Secondly, you have suggested belief/faith only comes from God as a gift, so whose fault is it if I do not believe in Christ? God's.
Lastly, Jesus in v29 did not say to believe only. By adding the word only to various texts one changes what God has said to what they personally think.
"Believe" is sometimes used as a synecdoche (a part for the whole) where the word believe includes repenting, confessing with the mouth and being baptized.
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In Rom 10:9,10 Paul said one must confess with the mouth UNTO SALVATION. So it is not belief only but belief and confession and one is creating contradictions if he tries to get rid of what Paul said about confessing with the mouth.
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In Jn 3:16 Jesus said one must believe or perish.
Lk 13:3,5 Jesus said one must repent or perish.
So belief must include repentance else one will perish.
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in Act 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. "
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"
THose that gladly accepted Peter's words were baptized and those that rejected Peter's wrods rejected baptism.
So who it it that believed in verse 44? The ones that accpeted Peter's words and were baptized or those that rejected his words and not baptized? [Note also in v41 that until one was baptized he was rejecting/not recieving Peter's gospel message.]
Of course the ones that are said to have believed are the ones that were baptized so the word 'believed" in verse 44 includes being bpatized.
We know from Eph 2:8 that faith saved the Ephesians.
Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>saved
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just only one way to be saved, the Ephesians' faith MUST have included baptism.
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Ernest T. Bass
Member
The context around Rom 4:6 reads:
4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"
7 "[Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 "Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
We know from verse 4 that the work the worker does are works of merit in trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace.
So in verse 6 "not of works" means not of works of merit. Therefore "not of works" in verse 6 does NOT exclude obedience. For verse 7 says blessed are those whose inquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered for the Lord will not impute sin unto them.
So the Lord will either impute righteousness or He will impute sin.
The Lord will NOT impute sin to those whose inquities are forgiven and whose sins covered yet how does one get his inquities and sins forgiven/covered? OBEDIENCE. David was one who was very repentant for his sins. How does one today get his sins forgiven/covered? By OBEDIENCE in believing, Jn 3:16; repenting of sins, Lk 13:3,5; confess with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and be water baptized in the name of the LOrd for remission of sins, Acts 2:38. Not a single verse says faith only will get inquities forgiven and sins covered.
In Jn 6:27 Jesus said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. So Jesus settled the issues that obedient works are necessary for one to have everlsting life. Some still want to argue it.
Davies
Member
Hi Ernest T. Bass,
I think between your two replies and what I've said, there is enough for the readers to discern what the truth is as long as they are studying their Bibles.
If you want to stick by:
" So salvation is not conditional upon perfect obedience but it is dependant upon a continued walking in the light, a continued repenting of sins. If a Christian sins, as long as he keeps walking in the light his sins are all forgiven but if he quits walking in the light then his sins will not be cleansed away."
... whom am I to keep you from working your way to eternal life. Your statement appears contradictory to me because you say, "salvation is not conditional upon perfect obedience," and in the next breath, "but it is dependant upon a continued walking in the light." When one sins, they are not walking in the light.
The understanding I have, I know you don't agree with it, is I don't have to depend upon my performance of obedience to be justified. Jesus provided that for me. Now, what's left for me to do? I am to become more like Christ being transformed from faith to faith(Romans 1:17). I won't be perfected until I die. God's requirement of perfection is met in Jesus, and my sanctification is made perfect when faith will be no more, and I will be able to obey God in the body perfectly in thought, word, deed. We will no longer have the problem of unrighteousness. Until then, unrighteousness, for the Christian, remains a battle, but the victory has already been won.
1 Corinthians 15:57
New King James Version (NKJV)
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (emphasis added)
- Davies
P.s. If I didn't work for a living and was willing to give up all my precious time with my wife and child, I might be tempted to refute each and every point.
I think between your two replies and what I've said, there is enough for the readers to discern what the truth is as long as they are studying their Bibles.
If you want to stick by:
" So salvation is not conditional upon perfect obedience but it is dependant upon a continued walking in the light, a continued repenting of sins. If a Christian sins, as long as he keeps walking in the light his sins are all forgiven but if he quits walking in the light then his sins will not be cleansed away."
... whom am I to keep you from working your way to eternal life. Your statement appears contradictory to me because you say, "salvation is not conditional upon perfect obedience," and in the next breath, "but it is dependant upon a continued walking in the light." When one sins, they are not walking in the light.
The understanding I have, I know you don't agree with it, is I don't have to depend upon my performance of obedience to be justified. Jesus provided that for me. Now, what's left for me to do? I am to become more like Christ being transformed from faith to faith(Romans 1:17). I won't be perfected until I die. God's requirement of perfection is met in Jesus, and my sanctification is made perfect when faith will be no more, and I will be able to obey God in the body perfectly in thought, word, deed. We will no longer have the problem of unrighteousness. Until then, unrighteousness, for the Christian, remains a battle, but the victory has already been won.
1 Corinthians 15:57
New King James Version (NKJV)
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (emphasis added)
- Davies
P.s. If I didn't work for a living and was willing to give up all my precious time with my wife and child, I might be tempted to refute each and every point.
Davies
Member
Hello all,
I can say all and not all ya'll because I'm from California. In John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress, there is a discourse between Ignorance and Christian that is perfectly relevant to a man's actions justifying himself.
Ignor. I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through His gracious acceptance of my obedience to His law. Or thus, Christ makes my duties, that are religious, acceptable to His Father by virtue of His merits, and so shall I be justified.
Chr. Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith:
1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the word.
2. Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own.
3. This faith maketh not Christ a justifer of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy actions' sake, which is false.
4. Therefore this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath in the day of God Almighty: for true justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its lost condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ's righteousness (which righteousness of His is not an act of grace by which He maketh, for justification, thy obedience accepted with God, but His personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands); this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth, and acquit from condemnation.
John goes on, but alas, my time is not my own.
- Davies
I can say all and not all ya'll because I'm from California. In John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress, there is a discourse between Ignorance and Christian that is perfectly relevant to a man's actions justifying himself.
Ignor. I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through His gracious acceptance of my obedience to His law. Or thus, Christ makes my duties, that are religious, acceptable to His Father by virtue of His merits, and so shall I be justified.
Chr. Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith:
1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the word.
2. Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own.
3. This faith maketh not Christ a justifer of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy actions' sake, which is false.
4. Therefore this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath in the day of God Almighty: for true justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its lost condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ's righteousness (which righteousness of His is not an act of grace by which He maketh, for justification, thy obedience accepted with God, but His personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands); this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth, and acquit from condemnation.
John goes on, but alas, my time is not my own.
- Davies
farouk
Member
Hi Davies:
I like John Bunyan and the Pilgrim's Progress. And the old Bunyan hymn, 'He who would valiant be 'gainst all disaster'.
Some of the Reformed theology I find a bit complicated; a bit too involved to get my mind around, actually.
I guess I try to stick to simple Biblical notions of the Gospel, in my ignorance, but this is me.
I like John Bunyan and the Pilgrim's Progress. And the old Bunyan hymn, 'He who would valiant be 'gainst all disaster'.
Some of the Reformed theology I find a bit complicated; a bit too involved to get my mind around, actually.
I guess I try to stick to simple Biblical notions of the Gospel, in my ignorance, but this is me.
Davies
Member
Hi farouk,
I can open up any page of John Bunyan's, The Pilgrim's Progress, and get encouragement. The book is filled with Scripture from one end to the other. Since you and I like this book so much, I think I'll post a little more. Be edified!
Ignor. What! would you have us trust to what Christ in His own person has done without us? This conceit would loosen the reins of our lust, and tolerate us to live as we list: for what matter how we live, if we may be justified by Christ's personal righteousness from all, when we believe it?
Chr. Ignorance is thy name, and as thy name is, so art thou: even this thy answer demonstrateth what I say. Ignorant thou art of what justifying righteousness is, and as ignorant how to secure thy soul through the faith of it, from the heavy wrath of God. Yea, thou also art ignorant of the true effects of saving faith in this righteousness of Christ, which is to bow and win over the heart to God in Christ, to love His name, His word, ways, and people, and not as thou ignorantly imaginest.
- Davies
Ernest T. Bass
Member
I know of no verse where God expected man's walking in the light to be perfect, I know of no verse where God expected man to be perfectly sinless. If man were perfectly sinless then there would be no need for God's grace and no need for Christ to die on the cross. Even though man's obedience is not perfect and needs to repent of his sins, man's obedience is still required to be "in Christ" and being in Christ then man can be covered by Christ's perfect righteousness, His perfect obedience.
Again, from verses as Eph 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:14 the Christian is to be spotless, holy and blameless. So can you explain to me by your theology how a Christian who occasionally sins can be spotless, holy and blameless?
1 Cor 15:57 the victory that God GIVES is only given through/by/in Christ yet it takes obedience to be in Christ.
In Jn 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which the Son of man shall GIVE unto you.
Christ GIVES everlasting life so it is free yet one must WORK for this free gift. CHrist has made obedience on Him a conditon to recieve the free gift of everlasting life.
Everlasting life is free to you whether you want it or not.
If you do not want to receive it then simply do nothing and you will not get it. But if you desire to receive this free gift then you must meet the conditions of obedience that Christ has placed upon His free gift.