The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Ernest T. Bass]

Knowing that I should just keep out of this because I've learned to agree with the cliché that "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still," and there will be no change as you ask:


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But: John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The answer to your dilemma is Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son . . What we must recognize is the fact we who would believe were know unto God before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, and according to Philippians 4:3 our names are written in the book of life . .

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Are you saying God just randomly selected certain individuals to save?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

In my equation faith = justification + works I think 'works' very well. The faith isn't without works because the saving faith produces works. If it was faith + works, to me, this would indicate an earning of salvation of which I know there is no way to do. How can a guilty person be justified. Without God, it is impossible. Even Jesus stated this in Matthew 19:26. God does not justify our behavior after salvation, He justifies the person. A justified person will produce the fruit of the Spirit because he abides in the vine. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him, John 15:5.

I still think a confusion persists between what works constitute; between justification and sanctification. I have no problem with you believing that Spurgeon was wrong, but if I were to list the most prominent Christians whose works survived for us to read, I think you will find the common understanding that faith is the justifying means. You would have to say that John Bunyan was wrong too. Of course we have a history of godly men who were martyred for justification by faith. I can think of the Catholic and Mormon churches who adhere to your position. This issue of justification was the crux of the reformation movement in the dark ages of which the Gospel continue to shine in. I'm not sure the dark age has ended, but at least we have the Gospel light. When the Catholic church lost control of its monopoly on the Scriptures, people were able to read for themselves and were able to dispel the false doctrines the Catholic church was supporting. Yes, this freedom to read the Scriptures has created many false doctrines from people who have read the Bible to include Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and likely hundreds of others. I believe that has happened because the people studying the Bible have exercised their intellectual freedom at the exclusion of God's authority inherent in the Scriptures. It's the same old scene that happened in the beginning. Adam did not heed God's authority of which he was not able to justify himself through his actions even if he lived a perfect life after his sin because of his guilt. Eve fell because she did not have faith in what God had said being deceived by the serpent who ask, 'Did God say.'

Working your way to heaven is building your tower of Babel.

I think it's interesting that one can accept the imputation of his/her sins to Jesus, but not His righteousness to them.

- Davies

Thank you for the post here but this post does not explain how it is detemined which prisoners Christ will save and which ones He will not save.

Your equation does not fit what Paul said in Rom 6:17-18 in how the Romans obeyed from the heart, then they were justified. Nor does your post answer the question I asked of Rom 6:16 as to which you serve either 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness? I serve #2.


Acts 2:38 Rom 10:9,10 Mk 16:16 among many, many more verses I can post all have the order of obedience BEFORE salvation not after.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good Afternoon,

Here is another example of justification by faith.

It requires, indeed, but little attention to mark how expressly the Scriptures maintain our justification on the sole merit of our Redeemer, while they as fully maintain the necessity of our sanctification, or holiness, by his Spirit. - John Newton, The Works of the Rev. John Newton …To which are Prefixed Memoirs of His Life, p. 88

In this instance, Newton doesn't say faith justifies, but the implication is that what we hear from the Scriptures, faith comes by hearing the Word of God, is justification is provided solely by the merit of Jesus. It would be correct to understand that Newton's position on justification would not include what we do because that would mean our merit would provided the justification. See, also, the Scriptures maintain the necessity of sanctification which is maintained not by our own will, but by the Spirit. This is consistent with Philippians 2:13, and many other passages of which I can't list right now because I'm running out of time.

- Davies

You say "...how expressly the Scriptures maintain our justification on the sole merit of our Redeemer".

What Christ did on the cross He did for every man, Heb 2:9. Does this mean every man will be saved? No, for Christ dying on the cross gave man the opportunity to be saved by obeying Christ, Heb 5:9.


Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Phil 2:13 " For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Verse 12 goes with verse 13 and note in verse 12 an important trait of the Phillippians in how that they have always obeyed. And thier obedience is how they were working out their own salvation. So there would have been no savlation for them if they had not had been working/obeying. So God works in those that obey Him. But from 2 Thess 1:8 and Rom 2:6-11 God will have vengeance, wrath and indignation upon those that obey not..the disobedient will not be saved. So it is not possible for anyone to ever be saved without first obeying God's will.

 

[Eugene]

Are you saying God just randomly selected certain individuals to save?

Hi Ernest and no, that's not quite right; God looked down through time and saw who would and who would not receive Jesus as their Savior and we read in the following scripture that it is us He foreknew.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The steps are:

1 He foreknew us.
2 He predestinated us.
3 He called us.
4 He justified us.
5 And He will be glorify us.

How can that be? It is because we are His work in progress (Ephesians 2:10). Everything we are is because He works in us to will and to do after His good pleasure as He does the work of conforming us to the image of His Son Jesus.

Thanks in Jesus' name.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest and no, that's not quite right; God looked down through time and saw who would and who would not receive Jesus as their Savior and we read in the following scripture that it is us He foreknew.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The steps are:

1 He foreknew us.
2 He predestinated us.
3 He called us.
4 He justified us.
5 And He will be glorify us.

How can that be? It is because we are His work in progress (Ephesians 2:10). Everything we are is because He works in us to will and to do after His good pleasure as He does the work of conforming us to the image of His Son Jesus.

Thanks in Jesus' name.

You say "God looked down through time and saw who would and who would not receive Jesus as their Savior..."


Did God pre-determine which persons would and would not receive Jesus as their Saviour

or

did each man of his own free will choose to or not to receive Jesus as their Saviour?

 

[Davies]

Thank you for the post here but this post does not explain how it is detemined which prisoners Christ will save and which ones He will not save.

Your equation does not fit what Paul said in Rom 6:17-18 in how the Romans obeyed from the heart, then they were justified. Nor does your post answer the question I asked of Rom 6:16 as to which you serve either 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness? I serve #2.


Acts 2:38 Rom 10:9,10 Mk 16:16 among many, many more verses I can post all have the order of obedience BEFORE salvation not after.

Hi Ernest T. Bass.

I understand why you say obedience is necessary, and I'd assume you profess Jesus and say you're a Christian. By your faith, you would hold that you have obeyed Jesus. Are you sure your obedience came before your faith? You must first know Who to obey and how to obey before you can take the right thought, speak with with a righteous tongue, or take the right action. Then there is the problem of when you don't obey, and I don't think you're saying you perfectly obey. Certainly, you wouldn't hold that your disobedience justifies you, but only your obedience. How would you explain a person can be justified by what he/she does when they obey and disobey?

- Davies

 

[Eugene]

You say "God looked down through time and saw who would and who would not receive Jesus as their Savior..."


Did God pre-determine which persons would and would not receive Jesus as their Saviour

or

did each man of his own free will choose to or not to receive Jesus as their Saviour?

Every person receives or denies Christ freely but due to the omnipresence of God, there is no time restrictions in all His knowledge, thus He can see through time that you received Jesus and plan for us according to that foreknowledge.

Psalms 139:7-10.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

 

[heymikey80]

I am aware of this text. My entire line of argument, following NT Wright at least as I understand him, is that statements of this form are Paul's way of saying "justification is not based on being Jewish. (with the understanding that Jews doi the works of the law not to earn salvation, but rather in gratitude for justification conferred on purely ethnic grounds").

Um, cite? Because what I see of it in Wright is simply Wright's idea that "works of law" were intended to identify a Jewish person through his works -- those of Moses -- those of the nation -- and thus those of A Jewish person. I'm somewhat familiar with Wright, having read some of his work with approval, though not complete agreement. The relationship of gratitude for grace is a possible agreement with Sanders' view; but Wright's point is, "works of law" is not the same as "legalism" (which actually has no clear definition any more).

"Works of law" becomes a badge -- an indicator -- of citizenship in God's nation and family; and Paul rejects that for clear reasons: Genesis 22:17-18 (cf Gal 3).

But there's more to it than that. Circumcision is also a badge of citizenship, being presentation in a Temple ceremony. National dwelling in God's land is also a badge of citizenship. And Paul is dismantling Judaisms, not Judaism.

The net result of Wright's view is not what Wright thinks. He thinks it's not as wide and broad and sweeping, because Paul is objecting to three legs in the Judaic tripos, not an amorphous "legalism". To me it's plausible to that extent. But Wright both caught and neglected Paul's argument that each is spiritual; and then Paul proceeds to show its spiritual necessity, our spiritual inability to fulfill it, and God's ability to do it or place us in it at His discretion. That spiritual purpose of each and our inability at each deprives many forms of nominal Christianity a standing to be Pauline.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you folks have to do is show where it says justification is by works...just not works of the law...whatever that means.

Paul plainly says justification is by faith in the blood of Christ. If justification was by any other 'work' than faith in the blood of Christ he would have said so. Instead he contrasts 'work' with faith in the blood of Christ, not with works that do justify.

 

[heymikey80]

What do you think Paul is saying here:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Are you again going to say...

Hm, why not let me say what I'm going to say? I generally ignore rhetorical questions.

The fact is, Paul actually states where this capacity comes from. It comes from the Spirit of God. In fact that's a point Paul repeats quite a bit in Romans 8.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Rom 8:9-11

And the fact is, people have to have faith in order to have the Spirit of God. Paul said that in Galatians 3, for instance. The sequence of Romans 7 shows his opinion here hasn't changed, either. In point of fact Paul even goes as far as to say it this way, "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do." Rom 8:2-3

So we aren't able to do anything but living according to the flesh. God claims the work as His, to do what the law couldn't. God's Spirit empowers those who rely on Him. And this same person we're talking about -- the one relying on Jesus -- is the one who lives by the Spirit, putting works of the flesh to death.

This is a clear indicator of who lives and who dies. But it's not cause & effect. God is clearly the cause. He claims to have done what the law couldn't.

 

[Davies]

Hi Ernest T. Bass.

I understand why you say obedience is necessary, and I'd assume you profess Jesus and say you're a Christian. By your faith, you would hold that you have obeyed Jesus. Are you sure your obedience came before your faith? You must first know Who to obey and how to obey before you can take the right thought, speak with with a righteous tongue, or take the right action. Then there is the problem of when you don't obey, and I don't think you're saying you perfectly obey. Certainly, you wouldn't hold that your disobedience justifies you, but only your obedience. How would you explain a person can be justified by what he/she does when they obey and disobey?

- Davies

I'm hearing crickets?

- Davies

 

[heymikey80]

This strikes me as a strange argument. Your position forces you to believe that when Paul writes this....

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

.....this will be true for zero people.

Actually, we find Paul believes this is true for exactly one Man (cf Romans 5). But it is indeed true that Paul excludes everybody generally at Romans 2:12, Romans 3:9, Romans 3:19.

I mean it: he does so. To demand that Paul not do so is pretty-much pitting one verse against another. Paul's defending God's justice: if you do good your entire life, then God will reward that. But of course Paul goes on to prove, no one actually does good their entire life.

Or when he writes this:

...it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous
.....this will be true for zero people.

Once again, Paul has actually said this will be true of no one. "by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight" I don't have to presume nor conclude it. He said it. That settles it. Of course.

Or when he write this:

for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

......precisely zero people will get life in this way.

I haven't made that assertion. Why is it you try to add this to my statements? What I've said is that this isn't a path to follow, but a characteristic of someone already on the path. So technically, no one gets from one to the other using this as a path, no. But everyone actually gets life in the way this verse is stated by Paul, and not his translators and interpreters.

Trying to escape from the puzzling-ness of this by suggesting that the Holy Spirit is behind it all strikes me as avoiding the force of the challenge.

Trying to say the Spirit of God is not doing this strikes me as avoiding the force of His Answer.

 

[Davies]

The Non-Worker:

And so when a man becomes a believer, he has come of age, and the schoolmaster's rule is over, he is no longer under his former tutors and governors, for his time of liberty appointed by the Father is come. He is not under the pedagogy of the Law any longer, for Christ's work has set Him entirely free therefrom. Certainly, a man sees the office of the Law as pedagogue ended when he ascertains that Christ has fulfilled it. I read the Ten Commandments and say, "These thundered at me and I trembled at them, but Christ has kept them for me. He was my representative in every act of His obedient life and death, and before God, it is as if I had kept the Law, and I stand accepted in the Beloved. When Jesus Christ is seen of God, God sees His people in Him, and they are justified through His righteousness, because they have faith in Him. "He that believeth in Him is not condemned." Oh, is it not a thousand mercies in one that the grand old cannons of the Law are no longer turned against us? Christ has either spiked them or else turned them on our enemies by fulfilling the Law so that they are on our side instead of against us. - Charles Spurgeon

John 3:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The excerpt from Spurgeon brought this Scripture to my attention. Here we see the difference of the justified and the unjust. The one who works will find his work contaminated with his inability to obey, even though the heart desires to obey. Considering the rebellious nature of the heart of man, it's a miracle that we even have faith at all. When a man has faith in Jesus Christ, you know a miracle has happened.



Romans 3:24-26

New King James Version (NKJV)

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


Say that three times fast,


- Davies

 

[Davies]

Good morning all,

If there were any drum to beat over and over again, it's the Gospel drum. I often focus on the death of Jesus when I think of what God has done for us, but what about His life. Jesus always did what pleased the Father, but though I think the primary aim of Jesus was to glorify God, I believe Jesus had us in mine as well when He obeyed the Father. Consider Romans 5:10-11
Romans 5:9-11

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


This is the imputed righteousness we receive when we repent and put our faith in Jesus. Justified/Reconciled by the blood of Jesus, and saved by His life. Can a person boast even by what he does with the help of the Spirit. Sure. He can boast of the Spirit. Verse 11 points out that we rejoice, not only in the gifts, but in the Giver.



- Davies

 

[dadof10]

Are you sure your obedience came before your faith?

Found it!!! I remember reading this point a while ago on my phone and looked for it when I got home, but couldn't find it.

Belief comes first, but applying this faith to your life (accepting Jesus, trusting in the blood of Christ, etc.) is an ACTION that must be performed or salvation is not granted. A person will hear or read of Jesus, come to the realization that he is the Christ and believe. I think you will agree that this, in and of itself, will not save. Justification ONLY comes when a person puts this rudimentary "faith" into action by APPLYING this belief to his life, which is the obedience spoken of in Scripture. So, realistically, a person can have mere belief in Who Christ is, but not have faith. When that belief is EXPRESSED by an OBEDIENT ACTION (HAVING faith), only then is the person justified.

Now, do you consider this application (accepting...trusting) of faith NECESSARY for salvation? Do you consider it a "work"?

 

[Davies]

Now, do you consider this application (accepting...trusting) of faith NECESSARY for salvation? Do you consider it a "work"?

Hi dadof10,

I really like your name dado. I have a co-worker whose name is dado. He is from the Philippines. I thought is was a strange name at first, but it's the uniqueness of it that is so appealing.

I do agree with you that a person must put his faith/trust in Jesus. This is the work that Jesus referred to when the people came to Him and asked what work must they do to do the works of God. There is the sanctification when a person is born again, and there is the ongoing sanctification that we go through for the rest of our lives. Having said that, I don't think our 'action' of faith is what justifies us. Our faith is the means by which God justifies a person, the means by which the blood of Jesus is applied to us, and so we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, past, present and future. I'll try an illustration. If we are wounded, and we need hospital attention in order to be saved, we would call 911 and help comes to us. Do we get credit for our salvation because we called 911? Of course, the answer is no. We would give credit to the help we received, the help we received by faith that they would be able to help us. Yes we do play a role in our salvation, but it is receiving the gift, and the receiving of our salvation is by faith which has been granted to us. So, we don't take credit for even the role we are involved in regarding justification.

Philippians 1:29

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,



2 Timothy 2:25

New King James Version (NKJV)

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,



I think we both know that having saving faith, good works will accompany that faith. That's why it is the faith that justifies. A faith that doesn't justify will still produce good works. We can't tell the difference when examining others but by God's grace we can tell if our motivations are pure. Do we do things to be justified by God, even if done by the Holy Spirit, or do we do things by the Holy Spirit because we are justified? I hold that pure motivations come from the latter. God grants us faith, and by that faith we exercise our ability to obey by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, I conclude that there is nothing I can take credit for, to include not only the things I do after coming to faith in Jesus, but especially the faith that led me to my conversion.

- Davies

 

[dadof10]

I do agree with you that a person must put his faith/trust in Jesus. This is the work that Jesus referred to when the people came to Him and asked what work must they do to do the works of God.

Hi, Davies

Then when Paul refers to "works" in his "faith v. works" passages, he is referring to something other than the "work" of faith? If so, I agree it is excluded, along with other actions that MUST BE DONE in order to be saved.

There is the sanctification when a person is born again, and there is the ongoing sanctification that we go through for the rest of our lives.

OK. I agree. By the same token, do you agree that this sanctification can go the other way, that we can become "un-sanctified" by our actions?

Having said that, I don't think our 'action' of faith is what justifies us.

If it is the "work" that Jesus referred to, like you said above, how can it NOT save? A "person must put his faith/trust in Jesus" to be saved, right? How is this not an action?

Our faith is the means by which God justifies a person, the means by which the blood of Jesus is applied to us, and so we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, past, present and future.

Amen!!! Just like baptism, charitable works, etc.

I'll try an illustration. If we are wounded, and we need hospital attention in order to be saved, we would call 911 and help comes to us. Do we get credit for our salvation because we called 911? Of course, the answer is no. We would give credit to the help we received, the help we received by faith that they would be able to help us. Yes we do play a role in our salvation, but it is receiving the gift, and the receiving of our salvation is by faith which has been granted to us. So, we don't take credit for even the role we are involved in regarding justification.

Again, I agree. Now, take this concept and apply it to baptism, keeping the commandments, charity, etc. We are not to "take credit" for getting baptized or doing charitable works. They are all salvific acts done by the Grace of God. Just like the in verses you quote below, all these "good deeds", including the ACT of HAVING FAITH, "have been granted" to us by God, so there is no "boasting".

Philippians 1:29

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,



2 Timothy 2:25

New King James Version (NKJV)

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,



I think we both know that having saving faith, good works will accompany that faith. That's why it is the faith that justifies. A faith that doesn't justify will still produce good works. We can't tell the difference when examining others but by God's grace we can tell if our motivations are pure. Do we do things to be justified by God, even if done by the Holy Spirit, or do we do things by the Holy Spirit because we are justified? I hold that pure motivations come from the latter.

So, even if the things we do are in response to the Holy Spirit, they don't justify, if we do them to please God?

God grants us faith, and by that faith we exercise our ability to obey by the power of the Holy Spirit.

And if we refuse to obey? Will this disobedience effect our salvation?

So, I conclude that there is nothing I can take credit for, to include not only the things I do after coming to faith in Jesus, but especially the faith that led me to my conversion.

Agreed. And this concept can be applied to baptism, charity, etc.. Any salvific works. It's the same thing as saying that the ACT of HAVING FAITH saves. It's something you must do, but something you get no credit for because it's all a gift. "Both the will to work and the work itself".

 

[rrowell]

Hi, Davies

Originally Posted by Davies
Our faith is the means by which God justifies a person, the means by which the blood of Jesus is applied to us, and so we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, past, present and future.

Amen!!! Just like baptism, charitable works, etc.

Not exactly, but close...

Where I quoted Davies above saying "cleansed from all unrighteousness, past, present, (I'm good up to here) and future."

After baptism (which puts us in contact with the ever cleansing blood of Christ) we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, "past and present", but like you have been saying dadof, we can fall in our righteous walk, but when we slip and/or fall, by repentance and asking forgiveness, we are again cleansed by the ever cleansing blood (as long as we are obedient).

We will never be perfect, we will fail, that is why we needed the perfect sacrifice to save us (keep us saved when we fail).

Thank you Jesus!

 

[Davies]

Good evening dado,

I'll explain my position, but it will be with the knowledge that at the current time, we do not stand on common ground. I don't hate you and I don't think you hate me. We disagree on the basics of the faith. So here's to the old college try.

Then when Paul refers to "works" in his "faith v. works" passages, he is referring to something other than the "work" of faith? If so, I agree it is excluded, along with other actions that MUST BE DONE in order to be saved.

I think faith is to be differentiated between work. I could use the expression, it is a lot of work to think. Did I do anything. No. I sat in my chair and worked the ideas around in my head.

OK. I agree. By the same token, do you agree that this sanctification can go the other way, that we can become "un-sanctified" by our actions?

I believe when a person is saved, one-time sanctification, that person cannot become unsaved. I know there are arguments to the contrary, that's just my position which is a whole separate thread. Now, when it comes to the life long sanctification process where progress is made to be conformed into the image of Jesus, a person can hinder this process. I would say the person will continue to make progress as slow as it might be.

If it is the "work" that Jesus referred to, like you said above, how can it NOT save? A "person must put his faith/trust in Jesus" to be saved, right? How is this not an action?

Hebrews 11:1

New King James Version (NKJV)

By Faith We Understand

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.



Faith is being certain of what cannot be seen. The finished work of Jesus on the cross. His acts of obedience throughout His earthly ministry. Faith is evidenced by works. If you want to call belief a work, well, this will remain where we part in agreement. when the people came to Jesus asking what must we do to do the works of God, they would not have considered believing as the work that God requires of them. They were looking for what they could do to be identified as right with God.

Amen!!! Just like baptism, charitable works, etc.

I consider being baptized and charitable works unacceptable for justification. The reason being, if we were to count the righteous things we do, then we have to include the unrighteous things we do. This is why God does not accept our sacrifice. He only accepts the sacrifice of Jesus because he kept the law perfectly in letter, and spirit.

Again, I agree. Now, take this concept and apply it to baptism, keeping the commandments, charity, etc. We are not to "take credit" for getting baptized or doing charitable works. They are all salvific acts done by the Grace of God. Just like the in verses you quote below, all these "good deeds", including the ACT of HAVING FAITH, "have been granted" to us by God, so there is no "boasting".

I consider the only actions that we can do to save us are nothing. God grants us faith, why? The only thing I can think of is because of His nature and desire to forgive rebellious sinners. The ability He gives us to obey Him is the evidence of the faith granted to us. I do not consider the actions themselves to be the justifying agent, only the faith which was given to us.

So, even if the things we do are in response to the Holy Spirit, they don't justify, if we do them to please God?

That is my position.

And if we refuse to obey? Will this disobedience effect our salvation?

It is my faith that after we come to Jesus through repentance and faith, and are justified by His blood and life, we do not try to duplicate the feat of being justified by what we do. When I fail, I sin, but I don't lose my salvation. My salvation has been earned for me by Jesus' life. He was my representative just the same as Adam was my representative in the Garden, Romans 5:19.

Agreed. And this concept can be applied to baptism, charity, etc.. Any salvific works. It's the same thing as saying that the ACT of HAVING FAITH saves. It's something you must do, but something you get no credit for because it's all a gift. "Both the will to work and the work itself".

The reiteration, saving faith is having the belief in Jesus as the Son of God, who committed no sin, died on the cross, was resurrected on the third day. Also, that if you repent and put your trust in Him, God justifies you, and no one can snatch you from the His hands. Because the sanctification process is life long, and we struggle with sin especially after coming to faith, there is no way our works can be separated between good and bad. Either you count them all towards your justification, or you count none of them. That's why the imputation of Jesus' righteousness is precious.

- Davies

 

[dadof10]

Not exactly, but close...

Where I quoted Davies above saying "cleansed from all unrighteousness, past, present, (I'm good up to here) and future."

After baptism (which puts us in contact with the ever cleansing blood of Christ) we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, "past and present", but like you have been saying dadof, we can fall in our righteous walk, but when we slip and/or fall, by repentance and asking forgiveness, we are again cleansed by the ever cleansing blood (as long as we are obedient).

We will never be perfect, we will fail, that is why we needed the perfect sacrifice to save us (keep us saved when we fail).

Thank you Jesus!

I agree with you, RRowell. I've read many of your posts and we are on the same page, on this topic anyway. My "Amen!!" was in response to what Davies wrote and I highlighted in red. Faith is "the means by which the blood of Jesus is applied to us", not everything in the paragraph. We can lose our salvation, so we are not saved from FUTURE sin. Hope that clears it up. God Bless.