The Wrath of God

[WIP]

 

[jasonc]

It's definitely about the "resuscitation" of Israel and it seems the Temple sacrifices will be re-instituted during the MR ( which implies unsaved Jews ? ) so maybe the Levite will have usual Temple duty.

ok so that means the Law is superior to the BLOOD? you do realize that cant be. so in the millennium. the goy and the Hebrews who sin and that includes the priests themselves will offer to god in person. that a person to get close to god will have to go to the temple. if he isn't a priest he cant enter the Holy of Holies.

 

[jasonc]

What is there to struggle with? Plain and simple there will be a real and true resurrection of the righteous whom are this truly restored priest nation. Seems plain to me that there are lots of people whom are going to need them during the millennium.


Digging

because I am a Hebrew. I know people with the last name of cohen, kohen, levy and those are likely the priests. salvation for a jew is by what means to you? the mosaic law or the Blood. which both actually teach it was god that forgives and redeems. the later being the better way and the former a shadow. so why would the shadow come back when the light is on the earth?

 

[Deborah13]

ok so that means the Law is superior to the BLOOD? you do realize that cant be. so in the millennium. the goy and the Hebrews who sin and that includes the priests themselves will offer to god in person. that a person to get close to god will have to go to the temple. if he isn't a priest he cant enter the Holy of Holies.

And they will do blood sacrifices for atonement??

 

[Deborah13]

because I am a Hebrew. I know people with the last name of cohen, kohen, levy and those are likely the priests. salvation for a jew is by what means to you? the mosaic law or the Blood. which both actually teach it was god that forgives and redeems. the later being the better way and the former a shadow. so why would the shadow come back when the light is on the earth?

Well worded Jason. I really like that.

"Why would the shadow come back when the light is on the earth?"

 

[jasonc]

that is why I had to stop believing in futurism the more I study the torah. I see jesus. if that is what it was for then its doing its job in that it points to jesus. isn't that what paul said it was for? yup.

 

[agua.]

ok so that means the Law is superior to the BLOOD? you do realize that cant be. so in the millennium. the goy and the Hebrews who sin and that includes the priests themselves will offer to god in person. that a person to get close to god will have to go to the temple. if he isn't a priest he cant enter the Holy of Holies.

Yeah Jason this is interesting but I don't think it necessarily undermines Jesus sacrifice. Remember the animal blood Korban ( Is this a correct term ? ) was for the cleansing from sin and not for salvation I think. It will be a commemorative action maybe. I understand the opposition to this view though.

What do you suggest the Ezekiel period is about ?

Oh I just had a thought that since Yahweh will be redeeming Israel during that period maybe the sacrifices will be a teaching and witness during the MR of His promise to them. ( one of the reasons )

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah Jason this is interesting but I don't think it necessarily undermines Jesus sacrifice. Remember the animal blood Korban ( Is this a correct term ? ) was for the cleansing from sin and not for salvation I think.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

It will be a commemorative action maybe. I understand the opposition to this view though.

What do you suggest the Ezekiel period is about ?

 

[agua.]

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Yeah Deb the animal sacrifices were a temporary measure and it appears they will be again in the MR. What period do you think the Ezekiel passages about this cover ?

 

[jasonc]

Yeah Jason this is interesting but I don't think it necessarily undermines Jesus sacrifice. Remember the animal blood Korban ( Is this a correct term ? ) was for the cleansing from sin and not for salvation I think. It will be a commemorative action maybe. I understand the opposition to this view though.

What do you suggest the Ezekiel period is about ?

Oh I just had a thought that since Yahweh will be redeeming Israel during that period maybe the sacrifices will be a teaching and witness during the MR of His promise to them. ( one of the reasons )

ezek 40

39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.

note that the law separated what as an atonement for sin and worship offerings. cleanse first then offer the worship.
ok if the Prince is jesus then how come he has to do this?

All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel.
ezek 45
17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

please read from 40-48 of that book and take notice of the specefics of the law that cant be done today, the sons of zadok whom didn't go astray where are they? dead. only those priest may minister.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah Deb the animal sacrifices were a temporary measure and it appears they will be again in the MR. What period do you think the Ezekiel passages about this cover ?

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.

I think all of Ezekiel is rather like the OT giving of Revelation.
I think from about chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel are about the building of the Kingdom of God and the New Jerusalem, just as Rev. 21 is.
Ezekiel was an OT prophet. The vision he received was in a context that the OT church could understand. In Revelation John received in the context the NT church after the Messiah had been revealed in Jesus Christ and the Gospel message given.

When I compare them, which I haven't completed as yet, I see the progression from the old to the new.
For instance in Ezekiel there is a temple but in Rev. there is not, the Lord is the temple.
Compare these verses..

Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof....
Eze 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There are other things like the river flowing out of the city that gets deeper and deeper. I actually see this as the building of the Kingdom of God, the Gospel that flowed out of Jerusalem by the witness of the Apostles.
Something I am mulling over is the prince spoken of in Ezekiel. I have to do some research into who the Jews believe this is, but I think this is their view of the Messiah. They are waiting for a Messiah that is a man, but not the Son of God as we know He is. We know when He returns He will not be a man paying tithes and giving offerings to God as the prince does in Ezekiel.

For the western church understanding the prophecies are sometimes difficult but the more I learn about the OT, things become clearer. It's all Jewish and Eastern thought.
I am grateful that my salvation does not depend on me understanding these things.

 

[jasonc]

the context of Hebrews wasn't talking that way about sin being redeemed. but to show that the priests atoned men to get them able to ask god for a petition or to worship. the cleansing there was needed as well we do that when we worship god. we repent then we worship. the word sacrifice means to draw near. if you notice that the place where God said its is holy you had to do that.while It could be said the atonement of sins could be done in every city. lets kill that. first. we sin daily and its a lot. how many animals would have to die for food and verses atonement for sins? a lot. so it makes more sense to see that as way to get holy so that god could listen to you as you neared his presence. makes sense to me.

how many times do we lie daily?
how many times do we lust daily?
ad infinitum, ad nauseum with the list of sins. the cross did away with that and added the simplicity of prayer and in the book of kinds you could pray by facing east or west depending upons one location toward Jerusalem.
its also likely in the days of moses that prayer was allowed as we have recording of men praying before that time. theres no command not to pray for anything in the torah.

 

[digging]

Well everyone I've really enjoyed all the activity but this will most likely be my last post for a few weeks.

So if there is one last reply I could make to Agua. You have been asking me about how I see a just 'judgement'. Recall I mentioned that Jesus Christ is the key/heart of everyone's fate. How we respond to him is what matters. He is the stone we build up or stumble over.
We know that he walked the earth so everyone that stumbled over him during his stort time here, like the unfaithful Jews and Judas it would seem most reasonable to believe that they have turned away from the living God and have chosen death.

Thus I would like to try to make this closing point as clearly as I possibly can. I do agree many people who rejected Jesus when he was alive most likely are lost because HE is the STONE. If you stubble over him you fall, but if you build upon him you live.

What I believe is through the resurrection there are many, many, millions of people who never ever hear a peep about Jesus period.
WHAT ABOUT THEM???
How can they be judged apart from Jesus? They can not be period. No one is saved or condemned apart from their reaction to Jesus Christ.

So if our ideas of how thing pan out don't line up with that then there is something wrong with what we are thinking, and we need to relook at our understanding. That is basically how I've come to see it.

Each human being is given the same kind of choice in regards to Jesus as Adam and Eve were give with the two trees. Build on the rock or stumble over it.

If someone never came into contact with the rock mass of Christ in this age then they will in the age to come.

I'm not taking about the small minority of people whom many already be judged.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Well everyone I've really enjoyed all the activity but this will most likely be my last post for a few weeks.

So if there is one last reply I could make to Agua. You have been asking me about how I see a just 'judgement'. Recall I mentioned that Jesus Christ is the key/heart of everyone's fate. How we respond to him is what matters. He is the stone we build up or stumble over.
We know that he walked the earth so everyone that stumbled over him during his stort time here, like the unfaithful Jews and Judas it would seem most reasonable to believe that they have turned away from the living God and have chosen death.

Thus I would like to try to make this closing point as clearly as I possibly can. I do agree many people who rejected Jesus when he was alive most likely are lost because HE is the STONE. If you stubble over him you fall, but if you build upon him you live.

What I believe is through the resurrection there are many, many, millions of people who never ever hear a peep about Jesus period.
WHAT ABOUT THEM???
How can they be judged apart from Jesus? They can not be period. No one is saved or condemned apart from their reaction to Jesus Christ.

So if our ideas of how thing pan out don't line up with that then there is something wrong with what we are thinking, and we need to relook at our understanding. That is basically how I've come to see it.

Each human being is given the same kind of choice in regards to Jesus as Adam and Eve were give with the two trees. Build on the rock or stumble over it.

If someone never came into contact with the rock mass of Christ in this age then they will in the age to come.

I'm not taking about the small minority of people whom many already be judged.

Digging

I will miss your input. Hope your few weeks are good ones and then come back.

Blessings digging, you have a sweet heart.

 

[turnorburn]

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God did his part now its our turn to obey His command.. to spread the gospel.. otherwise their blood is on our hands..

tob

*edit: Not a pleasant thought is it?

 

[agua.]

Well everyone I've really enjoyed all the activity but this will most likely be my last post for a few weeks.

So if there is one last reply I could make to Agua. You have been asking me about how I see a just 'judgement'. Recall I mentioned that Jesus Christ is the key/heart of everyone's fate. How we respond to him is what matters. He is the stone we build up or stumble over.
We know that he walked the earth so everyone that stumbled over him during his stort time here, like the unfaithful Jews and Judas it would seem most reasonable to believe that they have turned away from the living God and have chosen death.

Thus I would like to try to make this closing point as clearly as I possibly can. I do agree many people who rejected Jesus when he was alive most likely are lost because HE is the STONE. If you stubble over him you fall, but if you build upon him you live.

What I believe is through the resurrection there are many, many, millions of people who never ever hear a peep about Jesus period.
WHAT ABOUT THEM???
How can they be judged apart from Jesus? They can not be period. No one is saved or condemned apart from their reaction to Jesus Christ.

I think we sometimes concentrate Yahweh's revelation to humans at the time of Jesus Earthly ministry and forget about the obvious and constant revelation through the Creation and the conviction all people receive. Seeing, hearing or even knowing the name of Jesus isn't the prerequisite to salvation ( shock horror ) ; however our Lord Jesus' sacrifice is the conduit for everyone's salvation. What this means is that there are people before and after Jesus walked the Earth who have never heard His name or even had contact with the Israelite or the Christian to receive witness. ( and never seen a scripture etc ). These people will be judged by their response to the revelation they have received imo and Romans 2 hints of this.

Do you have some scripture which suggests everyone will be judged according to their reaction to Jesus ? I mean everyone not only the people who have received direct witness.

So if our ideas of how thing pan out don't line up with that then there is something wrong with what we are thinking, and we need to relook at our understanding. That is basically how I've come to see it.

Each human being is given the same kind of choice in regards to Jesus as Adam and Eve were give with the two trees. Build on the rock or stumble over it.

If someone never came into contact with the rock mass of Christ in this age then they will in the age to come.

I'm not taking about the small minority of people whom many already be judged.

Digging

You can see Digging that we have a bit of a problem discerning who has and hasn't received adequate revelation according to our standards. We both believe that Yahweh is infallibly just and that every person will receive fair treatment concerning their decision for or against Him. Don't be concerned that any person will be judged unfairly in this lifetime. We must also consider that Yahweh knows who will and won't humble themselves and accept His sovereignty prior to the fact and this also hints that no one has been sold short imo. God bless Digging and thanks for the discussion.

 

[agua.]

ezek 40
note that the law separated what as an atonement for sin and worship offerings. cleanse first then offer the worship.
ok if the Prince is jesus then how come he has to do this?

Probably for the same reason Paul did with the 4 men.

Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

I guess the sacrifices for all ( true ) believers were simply a recognition of Jesus sacrifice whether they were before or after the Cross. In the MR maybe they are commemorative to the true believer and witness to those ignorant of the Jewish reliance on the blood cleansing of sin.

please read from 40-48 of that book and take notice of the specefics of the law that cant be done today, the sons of zadok whom didn't go astray where are they? dead. only those priest may minister.

Eze 40:46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him.

Jason the "sons of Zadok" may be any descendent not necessarily a first generation look at Ezekiel 43.

Eze 43:19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

You have said yourself you know people of the Cohen etc lineage alive today.

 

[agua.]

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.

I think all of Ezekiel is rather like the OT giving of Revelation.
I think from about chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel are about the building of the Kingdom of God and the New Jerusalem, just as Rev. 21 is.
Ezekiel was an OT prophet. The vision he received was in a context that the OT church could understand. In Revelation John received in the context the NT church after the Messiah had been revealed in Jesus Christ and the Gospel message given.

When I compare them, which I haven't completed as yet, I see the progression from the old to the new.
For instance in Ezekiel there is a temple but in Rev. there is not, the Lord is the temple.
Compare these verses..

Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof....
Eze 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There are other things like the river flowing out of the city that gets deeper and deeper. I actually see this as the building of the Kingdom of God, the Gospel that flowed out of Jerusalem by the witness of the Apostles.
Something I am mulling over is the prince spoken of in Ezekiel. I have to do some research into who the Jews believe this is, but I think this is their view of the Messiah. They are waiting for a Messiah that is a man, but not the Son of God as we know He is. We know when He returns He will not be a man paying tithes and giving offerings to God as the prince does in Ezekiel.

For the western church understanding the prophecies are sometimes difficult but the more I learn about the OT, things become clearer. It's all Jewish and Eastern thought.
I am grateful that my salvation does not depend on me understanding these things.

Don't worry about how long it takes to reply Deb especially when you make such an effort. This is all new to me I'm going to need some time to ingest it but are you suggesting the Ezekiel animal sacrifices are symbolic of the completed ( now ) one time sacrifice of Jesus ?

Initially I think there's a distinction in Rev between the MR and the New Earth where Yahweh is our Temple etc.

Our salvation depends solely upon Yahweh's grace and our faith in Him as always ( phew )

 

[Deborah13]

Don't worry about how long it takes to reply Deb especially when you make such an effort. This is all new to me I'm going to need some time to ingest it but are you suggesting the Ezekiel animal sacrifices are symbolic of the completed ( now ) one time sacrifice of Jesus ?

Yes, as they always were. It began when God drew the first blood and covered Adam and Eve's "nakedness" their sin with the skins of the sacrifice. But I don't see that this method will ever return on this earth. If it does it would be denying the now shed blood of Christ.
That is what the OT church would have understood as their covering of their 'nakedness', the shed blood. That is why I see Ezekiel as a type of the Book of Revelation that was given to the NT church. Not just those last chapters but pretty much the whole book.
Ezekiel was not told to seal the revelations in that book, as Daniel was. So Ezekiel would have become a part of the regular readings in the synagogue. Unfortunately, I think, the church pretty much shut up Revelation, which God told John not to do. I think because of this there is occasion for so many fantastical interpretations.
I believe that Revelation is literally the revelation of our Lord, how He came, what He did, His church, how we as His body are to live and resist the beast, satan. It tells of the growing of His Kingdom, the victory of the church in Christ over the evil of this world, and the coming manifestation of Him and the New Jerusalem. Some past, some now, some future still.

Initially I think there's a distinction in Rev between the MR and the New Earth where Yahweh is our Temple etc.

Our salvation depends solely upon Yahweh's grace and our faith in Him as always ( phew )

 

[jasonc]

Probably for the same reason Paul did with the 4 men.

Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

I guess the sacrifices for all ( true ) believers were simply a recognition of Jesus sacrifice whether they were before or after the Cross. In the MR maybe they are commemorative to the true believer and witness to those ignorant of the Jewish reliance on the blood cleansing of sin.



Eze 40:46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him.

Jason the "sons of Zadok" may be any descendent not necessarily a first generation look at Ezekiel 43.

Eze 43:19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

You have said yourself you know people of the Cohen etc lineage alive today.

that has been discussed and genitically its not even that strong. deborah13 post the evidence. orally that was the way they did that. the problem remains you have said to any jew. he doesn't need jesus to be saved. the mosaic covenant will return. that is the problem.

it will revert to the Hebrew being the only person who can enter into the presence of god. the goy unless they become a Hebrew will not be able to see the Lord in person, and even then only a levite could. isn't the cross so much better as its so simple? believe and be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't have to go Jerusalem. I can met with god right here.