There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Randy]

You're just interpreting that to fit your beliefs. Where does it directly say Jesus is the creator anywhere? Besides, the context of John 1 says the true Light is the creator and the true Light isn't Jesus. I believe what you're trying to do is use the closest pronoun to the noun to assume that it's referring to Jesus. That might work in most books, but with the Bible that isn't how it always is.

To clear it up, Jesus isn't YHWH and YHWH was clear He created alone in Isaiah 44:24. Case closed.

I thought the NT testimony was very very clear. Yes God created all things but by/through the Son. Which makes the Son alive before the world began and One with the Father from that beginning. I read that I didn't invent it. He ascended to where He was before.
The case is closed unless one wants to declare another faith such as biblical unitarian. You can't believe all that is written of Jesus and declare Biblical Unitarian theology as the true faith.

 

[Runningman]

I thought the NT testimony was very very clear. Yes God created all things but by/through the Son. Which makes the Son alive before the world began and One with the Father from that beginning. I read that I didn't invent it. He ascended to where He was before.
The case is closed unless one wants to declare another faith such as biblical unitarian. You can't believe all that is written of Jesus and declare Biblical Unitarian theology as the true faith.

What you're doing is beginning with an idea that "Jesus is God" and working the interpretation around this. When you encounter things like "The Father is the Only True God" as repeatedly said in the Bible, you can't really reconcile that. You just explain it away and reinterpret it. I thought the New Testament was very very clear that the only God is the Father. Isn't that clear? Why do you not accept John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You're just interpreting that to fit your beliefs. Where does it directly say Jesus is the creator anywhere? Besides, the context of John 1 says the true Light is the creator and the true Light isn't Jesus. I believe what you're trying to do is use the closest pronoun to the noun to assume that it's referring to Jesus. That might work in most books, but with the Bible that isn't how it always is.

To clear it up, Jesus isn't YHWH and YHWH was clear He created alone in Isaiah 44:24. Case closed.

Then I dare to reopen the case. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us," Jn. 1:14. If you still insist that the Word, logos is not God, not directly referring to the unpronounceable name of YHWH, then suit yourself.

You know, your whole schtick of "we worship YHWH not Jesus" is a false premise. I told you this before, that nobody worshipped a lowly carpenter from Nezareth, Jesus came to serve us, not to be served; to teach us how to properly worship God, not to turn himself into an idol and be worshipped. Following Jesus is not "worshiping" Jesus. You keep quoting Jn 4:23 that we worship the father in spirit and in truth, but if you truly have the holy spirit, he'll always point you to Jesus, the only access to the Father. You can't properly worship the Father without Jesus, you can;t bypass him, any other way is Cain's way.

 

[Runningman]

Then I dare to reopen the case. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us," Jn. 1:14. If you still insist that the Word, logos is not God, not directly referring to the unpronounceable name of YHWH, then suit yourself.

You know, your whole schtick of "we worship YHWH not Jesus" is a false premise. I told you this before, that nobody worshipped a lowly carpenter from Nezareth, Jesus came to serve us, not to be served; to teach us how to properly worship God, not to turn himself into an idol and be worshipped. Following Jesus is not "worshiping" Jesus. You keep quoting Jn 4:23 that we worship the father in spirit and in truth, but if you truly have the holy spirit, he'll always point you to Jesus, the only access to the Father. You can't properly worship the Father without Jesus, you can;t bypass him, any other way is Cain's way.

Some of this I agree with, but your argument isn't really with me anymore, but primarily with the Trinitarian church who are the ones in nearly complete disagreement with you regarding the deity of a human being. I have repeatedly said worshipping a human is idolatry and yet they all readily admit Jesus is a human. No one seems to care. Try actually engaging one of them and see what they say.

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. Yes I believe that.

 

[Randy]

What you're doing is beginning with an idea that "Jesus is God" and working the interpretation around this. When you encounter things like "The Father is the Only True God" as repeatedly said in the Bible, you can't really reconcile that. You just explain it away and reinterpret it. I thought the New Testament was very very clear that the only God is the Father. Isn't that clear? Why do you not accept John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6?

What I doing is reading the testimony about the Son and believing that testimony. What you're doing is believing Jesus is not God and therefore reinterpreding all testimony about the Son who was from the beginning. As in a begotten man from His beginning.

 

[Runningman]

What I doing is reading the testimony about the Son and believing that testimony. What you're doing is believing Jesus is not God and therefore reinterpreding all testimony about the Son who was from the beginning. As in a begotten man from His beginning.

I am going with the Father is the only true God. Grammatically, that rules out the Son as being God. As to whether or not he pre-existed, the evidence doesn't much support that theory. Do you believe he could have possibly pre-existed as an angel? Or perhaps in God's plan and foreknowledge?

 

[Randy]

I am going with the Father is the only true God. Grammatically, that rules out the Son as being God. As to whether or not he pre-existed, the evidence doesn't much support that theory. Do you believe he could have possibly pre-existed as an angel? Or perhaps in God's plan and foreknowledge?

The testimony supports/states He preexisted. The Superiority of His "Sonship" as contrasted to the angels of God. (Hebrews 1) No to angel as He is the only begotten Son who has the Fathers nature. (God) and He is firstborn as in before the angels and the creation of things in heaven and earth which were brought into existence through/by Him.

Gifted To Him alone no other. Col 1:19 All the fullness of the Deity of the "Father". In that He is all that the Father is. The very image of the invisible God. The radiance of the Fathers glory and the imprint of the Fathers very being. He is God the begotten, a Son of the Father, and in Him lives/dwells/resides all the fullness of the "Fathers" Deity. God the Father is unbegotten and is indeed the only true God and the God and Father of the Son. They are one.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

The testimony supports/states He preexisted. The Superiority of His "Sonship" as contrasted to the angels of God. (Hebrews 1) No to angel as He is the only begotten Son who has the Fathers nature. (God) and He is firstborn as in before the angels and the creation of things in heaven and earth which were brought into existence through/by Him.

Yet it doesn't say he isn't an angel. Angels in the Bible are called sons of God too.

Gifted To Him alone no other. Col 1:19 All the fullness of the Deity of the "Father". In that He is all that the Father is.

He doesn't know all that the Father knows. So we know for a fact the Son isn't omniscient.

Matthew 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The very image of the invisible God.

Yet not the invisible God who is one again said to be the "only God" according to 1 Tim. 1:17. And the only God is said to be the Father. John 17:3.

The radiance of the Fathers glory and the imprint of the Fathers very being. He is God the begotten, a Son of the Father, and in Him lives/dwells/resides all the fullness of the "Fathers" Deity.

Wonderful. Christians are also made to be like God (Ephesians 4:24) and the fullness of God is in Christians (Ephesians 3:19)

God the Father is unbegotten and is indeed the only true God and the God and Father of the Son. They are one.

The Father isn't an image, isn't begotten, etc. All of this means the Father is God. There are no other persons who can be God with Him.

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes we finally agree on something.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Some of this I agree with, but your argument isn't really with me anymore, but primarily with the Trinitarian church who are the ones in nearly complete disagreement with you regarding the deity of a human being. I have repeatedly said worshipping a human is idolatry and yet they all readily admit Jesus is a human. No one seems to care. Try actually engaging one of them and see what they say.

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. Yes I believe that.

See, you still stick onto that false premise that “Christians worship Jesus.” When it comes to worship, God the father is the “what”, Jesus the son is the “how”, again, two sides of the same coin, you can’t have one without another.

 

[Randy]

Yet it doesn't say he isn't an angel. Angels in the Bible are called sons of God too.


He doesn't know all that the Father knows. So we know for a fact the Son isn't omniscient.

Matthew 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Yet not the invisible God who is one again said to be the "only God" according to 1 Tim. 1:17. And the only God is said to be the Father. John 17:3.


Wonderful. Christians are also made to be like God (Ephesians 4:24) and the fullness of God is in Christians (Ephesians 3:19)

The Father isn't an image, isn't begotten, etc. All of this means the Father is God. There are no other persons who can be God with Him.


Yes we finally agree on something.

I care not to explain it again. But I will state again you cannot believe all that is written of Him and state what you state. That His life began in Mary's womb. That He is a glorified Man.

 

[Runningman]

I care not to explain it again. But I will state again you cannot believe all that is written of Him and state what you state. That His life began in Mary's womb. That He is a glorified Man.

Then you're flat out wrong because I do believe it.

 

[Runningman]

See, you still stick onto that false premise that “Christians worship Jesus.” When it comes to worship, God the father is the “what”, Jesus the son is the “how”, again, two sides of the same coin, you can’t have one without another.

They were worshipping the Father before Jesus existed. It's also mentioned all over the OT. The Father is YHWH.

John 4
19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

[Randy]

Then you're flat out wrong because I do believe it.

You just state you do but clearly you don't.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Runningman]

You just state you do but clearly you don't.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Do you believe that all things came from God the Father? That's exactly what I believe. That means the creating didn't occur with Jesus and means he isn't the Creator. You don't believe this.

How about in John 1:17 where neither Moses or Jesus are the originators?

John 1
17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[Randy]

Do you believe that all things came from God the Father? That's exactly what I believe. That means the creating didn't occur with Jesus and means he isn't the Creator. You don't believe this.

How about in John 1:17 where neither Moses or Jesus are the originators?

John 1
17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There stated together as in we believe "all things came from the Father" and "all things came through the Son".

I do believe therefore all things came from the Father by and through the Firstborn.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The only exception to this is the begotten Son who is defined from the Father alone. Col 1:19 And the Deity was gifted not formed. The same Deity the Father is dwells in fullness in the Son. They do have separate minds and are not the same person. The Spirit of God of the Father is the same Spirit gifted to His begotten Son without limit. (fullness) As I stated Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father that has His very nature. As a Son He is not God. As one who has the Fathers nature He is God the begotten. His God and Father is unbegotten and is the "only" true God as His Son states.

 

[Runningman]

There stated together as in we believe "all things came from the Father" and "all things came through the Son".

I do believe therefore all things came from the Father by and through the Firstborn.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The only exception to this is the begotten Son who is defined from the Father alone. Col 1:19 And the Deity was gifted not formed. The same Deity the Father is dwells in fullness in the Son. They do have separate minds and are not the same person. The Spirit of God of the Father is the same Spirit gifted to His begotten Son without limit. (fullness) As I stated Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father that has His very nature. As a Son He is not God. As one who has the Fathers nature He is God the begotten. His God and Father is unbegotten and is the "only" true God as His Son states.

Listen closely. God gave the law to Moses. God gave the truth to Jesus; Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ not because he created it, but because of his instrumentality. This didn't happen until after he was born my friend. That means he isn't God in the first place nor the creator of said truth.

John 1​

17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.​

The truth that Jesus had is what he heard from God. He didn't inherently have it until it was given to him. He didn't know what it was until God taught him. He had to learn it.

John 8​

28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.​

40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.​

Colossians 1:15-20 is true, yes, but not in the way you're saying. You're holding on to "all things" referring to creation, yet we just demonstrably showed that Jesus didn't create the truth, but rather as a man heard the truth from God as a prophet like Moses. The truth is what created the church, Jesus' sacrifice is what created the church, and God did it "through" Jesus. Your premise would now be that Jesus created "all things" before he was taught the truth from God? How can a creator do anything without the truth.

Now, I advise you to take a closer look at these verses to get the truth. Acts 4:24-27 where the Sovereign Lord and Creator is God and Jesus is just the servant. John and Peter prayed about this and demonstrated they don't believe what you do. Paul was also clear in 1 Corinthians 8:6 all things came from God the Father through Jesus the Lord of the church.

 

[Randy]

Listen closely. God gave the law to Moses. God gave the truth to Jesus; Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ not because he created it, but because of his instrumentality. This didn't happen until after he was born my friend. That means he isn't God in the first place nor the creator of said truth.

John 1​

17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.​

The truth that Jesus had is what he heard from God. He didn't inherently have it until it was given to him. He didn't know what it was until God taught him. He had to learn it.

John 8​

28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.​

40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.​

Colossians 1:15-20 is true, yes, but not in the way you're saying. You're holding on to "all things" referring to creation, yet we just demonstrably showed that Jesus didn't create the truth, but rather as a man heard the truth from God as a prophet like Moses. The truth is what created the church, Jesus' sacrifice is what created the church, and God did it "through" Jesus. Your premise would now be that Jesus created "all things" before he was taught the truth from God? How can a creator do anything without the truth.

Now, I advise you to take a closer look at these verses to get the truth. Acts 4:24-27 where the Sovereign Lord and Creator is God and Jesus is just the servant. John and Peter prayed about this and demonstrated they don't believe what you do. Paul was also clear in 1 Corinthians 8:6 all things came from God the Father through Jesus the Lord of the church.

God spoke to us in these last days by His Son.
God brought into existence all things by His Son.


I can quote John 1 as well.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Runningman]

God spoke to us in these last days by His Son.
God brought into existence all things by His Son.

God didn't speak in the past through His Son, but rather through the prophets. Yes, these "last days" began some 2000 years ago when the church was created. Literally "all things" were not brought into existence 2000 years ago.

I can quote John 1 as well.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

In the beginning of what? The beginning of the church as 1 John 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:1-2 say? It's once again, in context refers to the creation of "all things" in the church. The actual creator is once again the only true God, YHWH. No one there in the literal beginning named the Word creating, no one named the Word creating in Acts 4:24-27, no one named the Word creating in Acts 17:24,25, no one there named the Word creating in Hebrews 1:10, etc.

Yours is an error of hyperliteralism that sacrifices the context and it results in many contradictions.

 

[Randy]

God didn't speak in the past through His Son, but rather through the prophets. Yes, these "last days" began some 2000 years ago when the church was created. Literally "all things" were not brought into existence 2000 years ago.


In the beginning of what? The beginning of the church as 1 John 1:1-3 and Hebrews 1:1-2 say? It's once again, in context refers to the creation of "all things" in the church. The actual creator is once again the only true God, YHWH. No one there in the literal beginning named the Word creating, no one named the Word creating in Acts 4:24-27, no one named the Word creating in Acts 17:24,25, no one there named the Word creating in Hebrews 1:10, etc.

Yours is an error of hyperliteralism that sacrifices the context and it results in many contradictions.

You are mistaken.
"Without Him nothing was created that was created"

One God the Father "from" whom "all things came"
One Lord Jesus Christ "through" whom all things came.

Clearly the beginning is at the very least the beginning of the creation of God.

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

They were worshipping the Father before Jesus existed. It's also mentioned all over the OT. The Father is YHWH.

Yes, like worshipping a golden calf and calling it YHWH, not only at mount sinai, but carried out through the period of the Israelite kings, which eventually resulted in Israel’s down fall, first the northern kingdom, the southern kingdom, this Samaritan woman in Jn. 4 was a living testimony to that.