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There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

1 John 1:1-3 refers to this "Word of life" as a thing. What you said only supports Jesus not having a iteral pre-existence. A person isn't a "that" or a "which".
They touched, saw and heard the Word of Life. Life is always associated with something "Living".
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

As far as John 1:1 goes, doesn't that verse refer to the Word as a he? How would you account for the Word being a thing and then a he elsewhere? Why is the word (logos) not a he in 99% of the Bible? One word, personification.
How do I see the life from the beginning that appeared in flesh? I think you already know.
Personification again. Before all things were created there was nothing else aside from God speaking words according to Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, God's words weren't referred to as a person. For your interpretation of John 1 to be about the Word actually being the Creator then the Bible would need to confirm this. What you're saying doesn't exist in Genesis or anywhere else in the Bible. That's personification.
Before all things is stated "truth". Just as all those things God made through, by and for the life that appeared in flesh.
Being filled with the fullness of the deity applies to normal Christians too:
Those who are born of God have been given fullness in Christ.
Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
So you equate having been given fullness in Christ or Christ in us as being filled with all the fullness of God? Or only when you want to state a reason to deny all the fullness of the Deity resides in Christ?
Just demonstrates he didn't have the words inherently, but had to get them from God.


Jesus isn't the Only Sovereign Lord according to Scripture. The authority comes from the top (the Father,=) and goes downhill to His subordinates. This is also why the Father is called the Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 and Jesus is never called that.
Jesus and the Father are ONE. AS He taught.
1 Timothy 6
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
 
1 Timothy 6
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time.
This does not negate that He is from the beginning, that all the fullness of the Deity was pleased to dwell in Him, that God brought all things into existence by/through Him and even "for" Him.

Rev 3:14
“And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

As Paul wrote He/Jesus has preeminence/Supremecy in all things which includes the creation.

"
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

John 1:10

He was in the world, and though the world was made, (greek-brought into existence), through him, the world did not recognize him.

Ages
as in all time in all time periods such as "forever" adding the context of bringing into existence with ages means God made all things through Him. Never would forever be reduced to such a narrow subset as just the church age. In fact not one version of any bible translation I know of uses such a distinction in hebrews 1:2.

God created all things through Him

The writer of Hebrews

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Hebrews 1:3 -the nature found in the Son/Logos. "The imprint of Gods very being" or Jesus is all that the Father is. God is the Word. All the fullness of the Deity dwells/lives/resides in Him bodily. Not stated as such with any other being. We are not nor ever will be God. We have been given fullness in Christ.

Stated together that distinction was made by Paul.
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
 
How many times does the error of your reasoning on this as it relates to 1 John 1:1-3 have to be pointed out before you give up this argument? I've proven that it's based on a fundamental lack of understanding of the Greek.
I'll never give up that argument which, from my perspective, isn't an argument. 1 John 1:1-3 plainly calls the word of life an it, a thing, that was revealed to them.

Again, there is absolutely no reason to believe it is personification, especially when in Rev 19:13 Jesus appears with his name, The Word of God, on his thigh.
There is every reason in the world to believe this is personification. First of all, it's intuitive that a Word isn't an actual person. "Logos" doesn't refer to a person when it is used throughout the Bible except in John 1.

Again, poor argumentation. That Jesus, or rather the Son and the Word, was involved in the creation of everything that was ever created, is beyond a shadow of a doubt (John 1:1-3, 10; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10-12). Of course, all the other numerous verses that prove he is God in human flesh also imply the same. There is no support for the Word being personification.
Jesus was not involved in creation. I may ask you what you asked me earlier. How many times does the error of your reasoning as it relates to John 1:1-3, 10; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10-12 have to be pointed out? Have we not already gone over these and I showed how Jesus isn't the creator? Only God is the creator.

Again, phrases that apply to Jesus have a different, more significant meaning than when applied to people. Context actually matters.
On this particular point there is no distinction between Jesus and other people when it comes to being filled with the fullness of God.
Of course. Phil 2:5-8.
So you admit that "the Word" didn't have the words of God, but the word of God had to be given to him and then revealed by Jesus? If so I rest my case. That's essentially my point.

Except that according to your reasoning regarding 1 Cor 8:6, since "one God the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. You cannot have it both ways.
Yes 1 Corinthians 8:6 means Jesus isn't God. So does Ephesians 4:6, John 17:3, among many other explicit examples that identify the Father as the one and only God.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” (ESV)

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (ESV)
So Jesus isn't called the "King of kings and Lord of lords" then. They called Jesus the "Lord of lords and King of kings" to demonstrate distinction from God. Besides, there are at least 2 dozen names and titles Jesus doesn't have in common with God.
 
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They touched, saw and heard the Word of Life. Life is always associated with something "Living".
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
The Word is not something living according to Scripture. When that, which, this, it, and what are used together like this it refers to a thing, not a person. You don't pray and call God a that, which, this, it, and what do you?

1 John 1​
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.​
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.​

How do I see the life from the beginning that appeared in flesh? I think you already know.
How so using scripture?

So you equate having been given fullness in Christ or Christ in us as being filled with all the fullness of God? Or only when you want to state a reason to deny all the fullness of the Deity resides in Christ?

Jesus and the Father are ONE. AS He taught.
The fullness of God that Jesus has and Christians have is the same according to the Bible. I know why this is a theological problem for you. It's becomes oneness with God is required for Jesus to be God and there is theological need to deny Christians can be one with God contrary to what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 1
17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
 
This does not negate that He is from the beginning, that all the fullness of the Deity was pleased to dwell in Him, that God brought all things into existence by/through Him and even "for" Him.

Rev 3:14
“And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
So Jesus was created? Only God is eternal.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
As Paul wrote He/Jesus has preeminence/Supremecy in all things which includes the creation.

"
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God then Colossians 1:17 says he is before all things. So Jesus was an image of God before all things?

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made, (greek-brought into existence), through him, the world did not recognize him.
This verse isn't about Jesus. Observe verse 9 which speaks in the present tense about the true Light coming into the world, something John the Baptist was testifying about. So the true Light wasn't coming into the world until Jesus was an adult. The creator mentioned in John 1:10 is God, not Jesus, then.

Ages as in all time in all time periods such as "forever" adding the context of bringing into existence with ages means God made all things through Him. Never would forever be reduced to such a narrow subset as just the church age. In fact not one version of any bible translation I know of uses such a distinction in hebrews 1:2.

God created all things through Him

The writer of Hebrews

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Hebrews 1:3 -the nature found in the Son/Logos. "The imprint of Gods very being" or Jesus is all that the Father is. God is the Word. All the fullness of the Deity dwells/lives/resides in Him bodily. Not stated as such with any other being. We are not nor ever will be God. We have been given fullness in Christ.
"Ages" doesn't necessitate all ages extending from beginning into infinite because God didn't speak through the Son until these last days. How could God have spoken through the Son (the Word) in the beginning to create if God plainly didn't speak through the Son until these last days?

Hebrews 1
1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

Stated together that distinction was made by Paul.
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
The fullness of the deity is the same thing as saying the fullness of God. Yes?
 

So Jesus was created? Only God is eternal.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God then Colossians 1:17 says he is before all things. So Jesus was an image of God before all
Jesus was before all things except the Father. As has been shown and shown to you. That in itself is enough to disprove your glorified Man that began life in Mary theology.Yes- Jesus is all that the Father is and is He who was from the beginning for in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell/reside/live in Him and all things were brought into existence by God through Him.
This verse isn't about Jesus. Observe verse 9 which speaks in the present tense about the true Light coming into the world, something John the Baptist was testifying about. So the true Light wasn't coming into the world until Jesus was an adult. The creator mentioned in John 1:10 is God, not Jesus, then.
John is testifying about Jesus not the Father. The Father was known as God by the jewish leaders and people. Jesus was the one not recognized.Vs 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him Vs 11 He came to that which was His own but His own did not receive Him. vs 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
"Ages" doesn't necessitate all ages extending from beginning into infinite because God didn't speak through the Son until these last days. How could God have spoken through the Son (the Word) in the beginning to create if God plainly didn't speak through the Son until these last days?
The majority usage/meaning of that greek word in English as stated in the NT means forever except when used with the context of bringing into existence such as Hebrews 1:2 and Hebrews 11:3.. All time of all time periods. Through whom God made the forever? I see no usage or translations that state a narrowed subset as church age. Its ages. Not age. Through whom He made the ages.
Hebrews 1
1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,
Yes,-The Father living in Jesus doing His work. They are one as Jesus stated.
The fullness of the deity is the same thing as saying the fullness of God. Yes?
If Jesus is a glorified man as you state then how are you filled with all the fullness of God via the Spirit of Christ?

As has been shown and shown we have been given fullness in Christ. Jesus has been given the fullness of God's Deity. Col 1:19 is stated about the Son alone no other. It took place at a point in history before the world began. I do view it as from the will of another and a creation of the Father alone.The beginning of the creation of God. He has the Fathers nature in Him. The eternal life in the Son is the Fathers Deity. The Logos has the Fathers nature. The imprint of Gods very being. The image of the invisible God. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and they are one forever and ever. Jesus came from above and He ascended to where He was before. The Father the only unbegotten God and Jesus the Only begotten God. The deity was gifted not formed.
 
If Jesus is a glorified man as you state then how are you filled with all the fullness of God via the Spirit of Christ?

As has been shown and shown we have been given fullness in Christ. Jesus has been given the fullness of God's Deity. Col 1:19 is stated about the Son alone no other. It took place at a point in history before the world began. I do view it as from the will of another and a creation of the Father alone.The beginning of the creation of God. He has the Fathers nature in Him. The eternal life in the Son is the Fathers Deity. The Logos has the Fathers nature. The imprint of Gods very being. The image of the invisible God. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and they are one forever and ever. Jesus came from above and He ascended to where He was before. The Father the only unbegotten God and Jesus the Only begotten God. The deity was gifted not formed.
Good question and I am glad you finally asked. Maybe a fresh take on all of this will help you see that the angle you've been approaching this at is incompatible with Scripture. Let me briefly explain some things first, not just for you, but for anyone who sees it. Some of this you will already know, but I want to make sure I say it anyway.

So the word Christ or Messiah isn't an actual person, but an anointing. For example, Jesus' name isn't Christ. Yes we give him that title, but that isn't his name. When you are referring to Jesus Christ, you are essentially saying "Jesus the anointed one" because that's the definition.

So when the Bible says the word "Christ" it isn't always talking about Jesus. The Old and New Testament can talk about anointings without it always referring to Jesus.

So with all of that in mind, let's take a look at Ephesians 3 and some from elsewhere. As you can see below, there is no mention of Jesus in this context. Not many people pick up on this because the word "Christ" carries a lot of weight in the New Testament, and for good reason, but the word doesn't automatically mean they are talking about Jesus.

What Ephesians 3:14-19 is about is being anointed by God so that, like Jesus, we, too, can be filled with the fullness of God.

Ephesians 3​
14... for this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I ask that out of the riches of His glory He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Then you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth 19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Having "the anointing" is actually something Jesus and Paul taught repeatedly. Paul has a very clear example below of referring to regular Christians having The Anointing. Paul is saying we can actually have the same anointing Jesus had, mature in this anointing, and grow up to be like Jesus.

Ephesians 4​
11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part.​
Once you see how Jesus was a man who was anointed (Acts 2:22-24, 36, 10:37,38) and how he lead by example of who and what we should become, you will see Jesus is indeed a glorified man who God chose as His servant, resurrected, made Lord and Christ (gave an anointing to.)
 
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Jesus was before all things except the Father. As has been shown and shown to you. That in itself is enough to disprove your glorified Man that began life in Mary theology.Yes- Jesus is all that the Father is and is He who was from the beginning for in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell/reside/live in Him and all things were brought into existence by God through Him.

John is testifying about Jesus not the Father. The Father was known as God by the jewish leaders and people. Jesus was the one not recognized.Vs 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him Vs 11 He came to that which was His own but His own did not receive Him. vs 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

The majority usage/meaning of that greek word in English as stated in the NT means forever except when used with the context of bringing into existence such as Hebrews 1:2 and Hebrews 11:3.. All time of all time periods. Through whom God made the forever? I see no usage or translations that state a narrowed subset as church age. Its ages. Not age. Through whom He made the ages.

Yes,-The Father living in Jesus doing His work. They are one as Jesus stated.

If Jesus is a glorified man as you state then how are you filled with all the fullness of God via the Spirit of Christ?

As has been shown and shown we have been given fullness in Christ. Jesus has been given the fullness of God's Deity. Col 1:19 is stated about the Son alone no other. It took place at a point in history before the world began. I do view it as from the will of another and a creation of the Father alone.The beginning of the creation of God. He has the Fathers nature in Him. The eternal life in the Son is the Fathers Deity. The Logos has the Fathers nature. The imprint of Gods very being. The image of the invisible God. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and they are one forever and ever. Jesus came from above and He ascended to where He was before. The Father the only unbegotten God and Jesus the Only begotten God. The deity was gifted not formed.
Wow Randy!
Great post.
Not much to add.
:nod
 
Good question and I am glad you finally asked. Maybe a fresh take on all of this will help you see that the angle you've been approaching this at is incompatible with Scripture. Let me briefly explain some things first, not just for you, but for anyone who sees it. Some of this you will already know, but I want to make sure I say it anyway.

So the word Christ or Messiah isn't an actual person, but an anointing. For example, Jesus' name isn't Christ. Yes we give him that title, but that isn't his name. When you are referring to Jesus Christ, you are essentially saying "Jesus the anointed one" because that's the definition.

So when the Bible says the word "Christ" it isn't always talking about Jesus. The Old and New Testament can talk about anointings without it always referring to Jesus.

So with all of that in mind, let's take a look at Ephesians 3 and some from elsewhere. As you can see below, there is no mention of Jesus in this context. Not many people pick up on this because the word "Christ" carries a lot of weight in the New Testament, and for good reason, but the word doesn't automatically mean they are talking about Jesus.

What Ephesians 3:14-19 is about is being anointed by God so that, like Jesus, we, too, can be filled with the fullness of God.

Ephesians 3​
14... for this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I ask that out of the riches of His glory He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Then you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth 19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Having "the anointing" is actually something Jesus and Paul taught repeatedly. Paul has a very clear example below of referring to regular Christians having The Anointing. Paul is saying we can actually have the same anointing Jesus had, mature in this anointing, and grow up to be like Jesus.

Ephesians 4​
11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part.​
Once you see how Jesus was a man who was anointed (Acts 2:22-24, 36, 10:37,38) and how he lead by example of who and what we should become, you will see Jesus is indeed a glorified man who God chose as His servant, resurrected, made Lord and Christ (gave an anointing to.)
RM
In your belief system....
Could you state the difference between Jesus and Mary....
I keep hearing that we shouldn't worship Mary.
Is OK to worship her then because she's such a unique human, chosen by God, most probably sans the sin nature, most blessed of all women, etc.
 
Wow Randy!
Great post.
Not much to add.
:nod
Thank's , but He can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was before the world began. There really isn't anything one can add to change his outlook. He follows another teacher. It's a continuous state of disagreement.
 
Thank's , but He can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was before the world began. There really isn't anything one can add to change his outlook. He follows another teacher. It's a continuous state of disagreement.
It's still good to post.
There are persons reading along that you don't even know about and that don't even belong to this site.
So just keep up the good work.
 
I call myself a Christian, neither trinitarian nor non-trinitarian because:
  • Non-trinitarians. This is true with the ones I had discussions with, they try to undermine trinity concept because simply don't believe Jesus is God by nature. Also they tend not to believe the Holy Spirit is a person. Although some of their arguments make sense pointing out a controversy of trinity doctrine, their motivation is wrong and in my opinion they are just another kind of watchtower society members. Their attitude towards Jesus, the way they dishonour him ignoring clear scriptural and logical arguments looks the same. I consider them wrong and in a dangerous delusion if not even more.
  • Trinitarians. Many of them have difficulties acknowledging the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are persons in a common meaning of the word. Others say Jesus and the Farther are the same person and so on and so forth. In my opinion this concept introduces some other being apart from the holy Three who revealed themself to us while making the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit inferior. This is wrong and is a delusion if not even more, but at least they don't deny Jesus and the Holy Spirit so there is some room for a conversation.
I personally stand on this: in both Old and New testament only these three equally divine persons revealed themselves to us:
  • Yahweh God, the Father
  • Jesus Christ his Son and our Lord
  • the Holy Spirit
Not everything is crystal clear to me, there's still a lot to know, but I believe this is how it is supposed to be on the way to knowing the truth. So let's move further from basics and instead of wasting time proving Jesus is God by nature, which is obvious to everyone who is sincere and true, let's better try to think and calmly discuss what, in your opinion, is wrong with this plain and clear belief.

Please, in order not to waste time, do not express your opinions unless agree on basics: the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God by nature, the Holy Spirit is a person and God by nature.
So, have you progressed ahead?
 
RM
In your belief system....
Could you state the difference between Jesus and Mary....
I keep hearing that we shouldn't worship Mary.
Is OK to worship her then because she's such a unique human, chosen by God, most probably sans the sin nature, most blessed of all women, etc.
In my "belief system" if you want to call it that, we Christians follow the teachings of Jesus. What we do is look at Jesus' teachings and see what he said regarding worship. The only one Jesus instructed us to worship is the Father.

John 4​
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.​

Jesus also gave us Christians instruction on praying only to the Father:

Matthew 6​
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.​
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.​


Idol worship (the worship of humans as deities and praying to humans as if they are God) is primarily a thing in Catholicism and Protestant belief systems. I believe those are the groups you belong to if I am not mistaken. I have no part of them.

My question for you is, since no one ever taught about worshipping Jesus as God or praying to Jesus, then do you do it and if so why are you not following Jesus' teachings?
 
Thank's , but He can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was before the world began. There really isn't anything one can add to change his outlook. He follows another teacher. It's a continuous state of disagreement.
Apparently it's okay to talk about me without pinging me as long as it's me. No problem. I am used to the double standard around here. :)

So can you refute my previous post?
 
Apparently it's okay to talk about me without pinging me as long as it's me. No problem. I am used to the double standard around here. :)

So can you refute my previous post?
I apologize RM.
I didn't catch that as moderator.
I'm really sorry.
 
Thank's , but He can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was before the world began. There really isn't anything one can add to change his outlook. He follows another teacher. It's a continuous state of disagreement.
WHEN REFERRING TO ANOTHER MEMBER, PLEASE TAG THAT MEMBER INTO THE CONVERSATION.

Sorry Randy, I missed that one.
For the future...
 
Apparently it's okay to talk about me without pinging me as long as it's me. No problem. I am used to the double standard around here. :)

So can you refute my previous post?
Already done by me and others many times with scripture. Are you declaring you didn't recognize the refute?
 
In my "belief system" if you want to call it that, we Christians follow the teachings of Jesus. What we do is look at Jesus' teachings and see what he said regarding worship. The only one Jesus instructed us to worship is the Father.

John 4​
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.​

OK.
You're consistent.
So what you're saying is that just as we should not worship Mary, we also should not worship Jesus.
We should only worship God Father (as Trinitarians understand it).

So who is Jesus?
Is He a good teacher?
A morally perfect man?

If he was just a man, sent by God even, was He a little crazy to go to the cross for believing He was the Son of God?
Jesus said He would forgive persons at judgment day.
Isn't judging just for God?
Does God need help doing this?

What did Thomas mean when he called Jesus his God?
Maybe it was added in later on by trinitarians to make their point?

In Titus 1:3 it states that God Himself is the Savior.
The OT attests to this: That God is our Savior.

Is Jesus our Savior?

Jesus also gave us Christians instruction on praying only to the Father:

Matthew 6​
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.​
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.​

So He was supposed to say.....pray to me too?
Jesus is our mediator .... it's understood that we should pray to Him.


Idol worship (the worship of humans as deities and praying to humans as if they are God) is primarily a thing in Catholicism and Protestant belief systems. I believe those are the groups you belong to if I am not mistaken. I have no part of them.

Then what GROUP is left?
A person cannot make up his own Christianity.
It's already been established.
So many times I've repeated this.
What does the YES under your avatar mean??

But yes, IF Jesus is not God,,,then we are all worshipping a man.

But yet, you say He IS a man....

My question for you is, since no one ever taught about worshipping Jesus as God or praying to Jesus, then do you do it and if so why are you not following Jesus' teachings?
Well, RM, here's how I see it.

Either Jesus was God or He was a crazy person.ù
I don't think He was a crazy person.

Who else but a crazy person would make such statement:

Destroy my body and I'll rebuild it in 3 days.
My Kingdom is not of this world.
I lay down my life so that I may take it up again.
This very day you will be with me in paradise.
I do exactly as the Father has commanded me.

Those do not sound like words of a sane man.
Ergo.....He was God.
 
Already done by me and others many times with scripture. Are you declaring you didn't recognize the refute?
I believe the Bible is not irrefutable. Using the internal evidence of the Bible no one has been able to prove Jesus is God. It's not possible to do what you're trying to do. I've already been in your shoes. Actually, the indefensibility of the "God Man" theory is a primary reason I could no longer accept it in good conscience before people and God.
 
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