There is no rapture!

[brujaq]

Someone, someday will eventually happen to hit the right date if fools continue to claim every single day that ever existed in history, and in the future. But, more importantly, why insist you know the time.... when Jesus has already told you that you do not? You just trying to prove Him wrong?

Hi Willie, 2 Peter 3:3-4 .. I don't set dates but figured 15 yrs would be the absolute maximum of my lifespan, more like one or two and in agreement with the OP's last sentence .
But I do think the End is very near .. On the gathering and transforming of the saints (rapture) I think it will happen sometime after the midpoint of the 7 yrs during the great tribulations .. Revelation 6:10-11

 

[for_his_glory]

(1) Since I have no idea whether or not I will still be alive when Jesus returns (or is I'll still be alive 5 minutes from now) There is no way for me to even make a guess.
(2) I didn't say anything about "pre-trib" anything.

In the 20th century, about 123 million people were killed in war and another 100 million murdered by socialists. That's 223 million people killed plus all the physical devastation to cities. I'd call that a "great tribulation" since there has been nothing equal to that in world history.

Tribulation by the hands of man, but nothing compared to God's great wrath to come upon all the world in every nation on every continent.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 24:5-8 are the beginning of sorrows that started centuries ago and have escalated throughout the years, but the end is not yet. Vs. 9-13 even in our lifetime these things are happening as they always have and yet again on a greater scale. Vs. 14 the end is not here yet as the gospel has not been preached everywhere as of yet. Vs. 15 the abomination is in the process, but not yet has it reached fruition. Vs. 16-21 we are to flee the abomination that Daniel spoke of and it will be hard times for those of faith as much tribulation will befall them who are still alive at this time.

Vs. 22-28 I believe is the future coming of the beast and the son of perdition that will reign for a short period of 3 1/2 years (the abomination Daniel spoke of). This is the time to look up as our redemption is near. Vs. 29-31 Immediately after all these tribulations then the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How can anyone believe in a pretrib or even a mid-trib rapture especially when Jesus never taught there would be either one. Pre-trib teachers use Rev chapter 4 as proof, but nothing there says anything about a pretrib or mid-trib rapture. Chapter 4 immediately is after the seven churches received their messages then John while only being in the Spirit like being in a trance as Peter and Paul were, John is still in prison in Patmos and receives a vision of what heaven looks like.

 

[New Day Coming]

Let me try a bible passage on you for_his_glory ...

Luke 4

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[j]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”[k]

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

Do you notice something interesting about this passage?

 

[for_his_glory]

Let me try a bible passage on you for_his_glory ...

Luke 4

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[j]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”[k]

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

Do you notice something interesting about this passage?

Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

When you go back and read Isaiah 61-1, 2 The acceptable year of the Lord is made very clear in His timing of vengeance that no one could ever possibly know when that day will be, but Jesus does give us a sign to watch for in Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah's writing has been fulfilled in that of Messiah come and His purpose here on earth. All scripture will be fulfilled when we see Christ coming in the clouds and makes an end to all abominations on earth as God's vengeance will have been completely fulfilled on that day.

 

[God Is My Judge]

If I may, I do not believe in a pretrib, midtrib but I do believe in an endtrib snatching up. Scripture clearly states that it will occur and Jim Parker posted a version of scripture which states it:
1Th 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The dead, those who died in Christ will rise first and those remaining will be gathered to meet the Lord and the angels in the clouds with them.
1 Thessalonians
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
There are many versions which all state the same thing. When this happens it just seems to me time is up for the chaos going on. I believe those who are snatched up are mentioned in Rev.20. There are two groups mentioned, those who sit upon thrones and are given authority to judge and those beheaded for the Word.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
I believe these are the End Time Elect church and there are two groups mentioned in the verses . Both live in the end of last days and are the first resurrection as scripture says. I also believe they are those 144,000 of Rev 14, and Rev.7 the 144, 000 of every tribe of Israel. Therefore, only 288,000 will reign with Christ the thousand years. The rest will be of the second resurrection. That is my opinion of course , no one has to agree. God Bless!

 

[for_his_glory]

If I may, I do not believe in a pretrib, midtrib but I do believe in an endtrib snatching up. Scripture clearly states that it will occur and Jim Parker posted a version of scripture which states it:
1Th 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The dead, those who died in Christ will rise first and those remaining will be gathered to meet the Lord and the angels in the clouds with them.
1 Thessalonians
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
There are many versions which all state the same thing. When this happens it just seems to me time is up for the chaos going on. I believe those who are snatched up are mentioned in Rev.20. There are two groups mentioned, those who sit upon thrones and are given authority to judge and those beheaded for the Word.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
I believe these are the End Time Elect church and there are two groups mentioned in the verses . Both live in the end of last days and are the first resurrection as scripture says. I also believe they are those 144,000 of Rev 14, and Rev.7 the 144, 000 of every tribe of Israel. Therefore, only 288,000 will reign with Christ the thousand years. The rest will be of the second resurrection. That is my opinion of course , no one has to agree. God Bless!

Hi God Is My Judge and welcome to CF

I'm with you as I to believe we will be gathered with Christ on the last days as I also believe all the events of the seventh trumpet will happen in a twinkling of an eye, 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

Rev 14:1-5 The hundred and forty four thousand that John sees standing with Jesus is not a literal numbering, but symbolic of those of Gods established covenant with faithful Abraham up through a thousand generations, Deuteronomy 7:9; Galatians 3:6, 7; 3:28, 29. These are they of great faith that have never allowed them selves to fall to temptations of the world. To the Jew first and then the Gentile who have gone on before us as together with them all who are alive or have died before the Lords return makes up the complete body of Christ, Ephesians 5:25-27.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4. Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

Even in the end of days will be like that of Jesus who called the Disciples to preach to the Jews and Paul to preach to the Gentiles until the coming of the Lord.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of the lake of fire. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Hi God Is My Judge and welcome to CF

I'm with you as I to believe we will be gathered with Christ on the last days as I also believe all the events of the seventh trumpet will happen in a twinkling of an eye, 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

Rev 14:1-5 The hundred and forty four thousand that John sees standing with Jesus is not a literal numbering, but symbolic of those of Gods established covenant with faithful Abraham up through a thousand generations, Deuteronomy 7:9; Galatians 3:6, 7; 3:28, 29. These are they of great faith that have never allowed them selves to fall to temptations of the world. To the Jew first and then the Gentile who have gone on before us as together with them all who are alive or have died before the Lords return makes up the complete body of Christ, Ephesians 5:25-27.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4. Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

Even in the end of days will be like that of Jesus who called the Disciples to preach to the Jews and Paul to preach to the Gentiles until the coming of the Lord.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of the lake of fire. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

That is one way to look at it I guess, the scripture seems pretty straight forward to me, not much symbolism going on in these verses,
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev14:4 calls those of these verses first fruits:
4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
I believe the first fruits consist of those of Rev14 and Rev.7. And I guess we differ in the thousand year reign, I see nothing symbolic in exact numbers. Does it have to mention a thousand year reign anywhere else? Scripture is scripture, it is in the Revelation part. It not being mentioned else where makes no difference to the duration clearly stated. daniel5:1 refers to a number of guest, 2Peter3:8 says one of God's days is a thousand years, so Revelation is saying these chosen souls get to spend a thousand years=1 day with God in the meaning term of-one of God's days is a thousand years to man. Deuteronomy 7:9 has to do with number of generations referring to His love upon those who love Him not time spent on earth with Him, ex..... None of the verses you reference have anything to do with the thousand years in Rev.20 they quantify other things not days. God Bless!

 

[for_his_glory]

That is one way to look at it I guess, the scripture seems pretty straight forward to me, not much symbolism going on in these verses,
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev14:4 calls those of these verses first fruits:
4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
I believe the first fruits consist of those of Rev14 and Rev.7. And I guess we differ in the thousand year reign, I see nothing symbolic in exact numbers. Does it have to mention a thousand year reign anywhere else? Scripture is scripture, it is in the Revelation part. It not being mentioned else where makes no difference to the duration clearly stated. daniel5:1 refers to a number of guest, 2Peter3:8 says one of God's days is a thousand years, so Revelation is saying these chosen souls get to spend a thousand years=1 day with God in the meaning term of-one of God's days is a thousand years to man. Deuteronomy 7:9 has to do with number of generations referring to His love upon those who love Him not time spent on earth with Him, ex..... None of the verses you reference have anything to do with the thousand years in Rev.20 they quantify other things not days. God Bless!

Rev 20:1-9
Satan is bound for a thousand years as he can no longer deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years are fulfilled. In John's vision he sees thrones and those who sat upon them were those who were beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ as they did not take the mark of the beast, Rev 13:11-18. They died a martyr's death and their souls now joined with those souls who also died a martyr's death and seen of John’s vision waiting under the altar to be avenged, Rev 6:9-11.

Now the time of fulfillment will have come as judgment on those who have persecuted them to death also will have come and all are now avenged for the blood they spilled for their witness and testimony for the sake of Christ and not only those who were persecuted to death, but all the saints of God from the beginning of time and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ are all a part of the first resurrection being the first fruits of His creatures, Daniel 12:1-4; John 6:40; John 5:28, 29; James 1:8; Romans 8:23.

To me I do not see the thousand years being literal after Satan is bound even though a thousand is written, which I believe is symbolic as many things are in Revelations. What else is to take place within a literal thousand years that will need to be fulfilled as the only thing left is for Satan to be loosed for a time as he gathers all nations for the final battle against the saints, but his army will be consumed by fire that God sends down from heaven and then Satan cast into the lake of fire. Why would God wait a thousand years for His final judgment? What else could possibly take place during a thousand years before God ushers down the New Jerusalem?

 

[God Is My Judge]

Rev 20:1-9
Satan is bound for a thousand years as he can no longer deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years are fulfilled. In John's vision he sees thrones and those who sat upon them were those who were beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ as they did not take the mark of the beast, Rev 13:11-18. They died a martyr's death and their souls now joined with those souls who also died a martyr's death and seen of John’s vision waiting under the altar to be avenged, Rev 6:9-11.

Now the time of fulfillment will have come as judgment on those who have persecuted them to death also will have come and all are now avenged for the blood they spilled for their witness and testimony for the sake of Christ and not only those who were persecuted to death, but all the saints of God from the beginning of time and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ are all a part of the first resurrection being the first fruits of His creatures, Daniel 12:1-4; John 6:40; John 5:28, 29; James 1:8; Romans 8:23.

To me I do not see the thousand years being literal after Satan is bound even though a thousand is written, which I believe is symbolic as many things are in Revelations. What else is to take place within a literal thousand years that will need to be fulfilled as the only thing left is for Satan to be loosed for a time as he gathers all nations for the final battle against the saints, but his army will be consumed by fire that God sends down from heaven and then Satan cast into the lake of fire. Why would God wait a thousand years for His final judgment? What else could possibly take place during a thousand years before God ushers down the New Jerusalem?

Symbolic of what, it is either literal or not and the purpose of symbolism is more of a metaphor or analogist to something. So, if a symbol (metaphor, analogist) to what. The Tree of life can be considered a symbol, but the number of years ? What is the thousand years a symbol of? I ask because I have heard symbol, but not what it is a symbol for. You say: "What else is to take place within a literal thousand years". Scripture is clear, to reign with Christ, in peace, since Satan is chained during that duration.

 

[for_his_glory]

Symbolic of what, it is either literal or not and the purpose of symbolism is more of a metaphor or analogist to something. So, if a symbol (metaphor, analogist) to what. The Tree of life can be considered a symbol, but the number of years ? What is the thousand years a symbol of? I ask because I have heard symbol, but not what it is a symbol for. You say: "What else is to take place within a literal thousand years". Scripture is clear, to reign with Christ, in peace, since Satan is chained during that duration.

I already gave symbolic of what in those scriptures I posted, but we disagree on them just as we disagree with a literal 1000 years. I just can't see why God would bind Satan for a 1000 years after the beast and false prophet are already cast into the lake of fire and after binding Satan would wait a 1000 years before His final judgment when the books are opened and all judged out of them. I see everything from the time Christ returns during the seventh trumpet to come very quickly. I could be right or I could be wrong, but this is how I believe comparing OT with NT.

I know I for one do not want to wait another 1000 years, after being caught up to Christ, for God to usher down the New Jerusalem.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I already gave symbolic of what in those scriptures I posted, but we disagree on them just as we disagree with a literal 1000 years. I just can't see why God would bind Satan for a 1000 years after the beast and false prophet are already cast into the lake of fire and after binding Satan would wait a 1000 years before His final judgment when the books are opened and all judged out of them. I see everything from the time Christ returns during the seventh trumpet to come very quickly. I could be right or I could be wrong, but this is how I believe comparing OT with NT.

I know I for one do not want to wait another 1000 years, after being caught up to Christ, for God to usher down the New Jerusalem.

Oh, now I see where you are coming from. You understand the order of events differently than me. Time frame is where we differ, I believe the Elect Bride is here . I believe we will experience the beast system , and see the two witnesses and , see our brethren beheaded or may experience what the Leah portion of the Bride will Rev.7, they will make their garments clean in the blood of the Lamb and this is the portion that will be martyred. The Rachel portion will be in the father care as to meaning- special graces, and will be snatched up like Mary. I know where all this is in scripture. Rachel is the Shepherdess portion of the Bride, the one who will teach Israel and lead them to the well and spring of the Father , they are of REV.14. I would have to make a thread concerning this. Hopefully I will be allowed to share the meaning of some scripture and not be banned. I will discuss this with a moderator God Bless!
And one thing, as of now, we can agree upon - all is"FOR HIS GLORY". If we are counted amongst the Elect then we will see each other, it is a wait and see until then. In the mean time we can agree keep watch, stay awake and do His will and remember to love. Thanks for sharing your view point.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh, now I see where you are coming from. You understand the order of events differently than me. Time frame is where we differ, I believe the Elect Bride is here . I believe we will experience the beast system , and see the two witnesses and , see our brethren beheaded or may experience what the Leah portion of the Bride will Rev.7, they will make their garments clean in the blood of the Lamb and this is the portion that will be martyred. The Rachel portion will be in the father care as to meaning- special graces, and will be snatched up like Mary. I know where all this is in scripture. Rachel is the Shepherdess portion of the Bride, the one who will teach Israel and lead them to the well and spring of the Father , they are of REV.14. I would have to make a thread concerning this. Hopefully I will be allowed to share the meaning of some scripture and not be banned. I will discuss this with a moderator God Bless!
And one thing, as of now, we can agree upon - all is"FOR HIS GLORY". If we are counted amongst the Elect then we will see each other, it is a wait and see until then. In the mean time we can agree keep watch, stay awake and do His will and remember to love. Thanks for sharing your view point.

Never heard of the Rachel portion or Mary being snatched up. Can you enlighten me on that or I will wait tilyou start a thred on that and let me know when you have. I do agree that the important thing is to keep watch and be about spreading the Gospel and that we be prepared to be His Bride when He returns. It's good to share points of views as to me it makes me dig even deeper and I love digging into the word. God bless you and yours.