There Is Only One Baptism With the Holy Spirit By Jesus Christ

[TruthSeeker2012]

You can't clarify what do you mean by WORKS?

(Jas 2:26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

(Rev 3:1-2) "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ' These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

It matters not what the WORKS are, the point I showed and PROVED was that you RELY ON AND TRUST IN SOME WORKS to make it into heaven!

You reject salvation by FAITH AND GRACE ALONE as you don't believe a Christian can make it in to heaven by FAITH AND GRACE ALONE if they produce NO WORKS! But what you fail to remember, is that the thief made it into heaven and he did NO WORKS AT ALL! And the same gospel which saved the thief saves the true Christian too.

HOWEVER, there is a WORK that saves us! NOTICE SINGULAR NOT PLURAL! AND THE WORK that saves us was mentioned by Jesus.

John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

THE WORK THAT WE WILL BE JUDGED BY IS "DID YOU PUT FAITH IN JESUS!!!"

Dear oh dear Felix, for someone who claims to have PERFECT INTERPRETATION AND UNDERSTANDING OF ENTIRE SCRIPTURE, YOU REALLY SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF!

 

[felix]

It matters not what the WORKS are, the point I showed and PROVED was that you RELY ON AND TRUST IN SOME WORKS to make it into heaven!

You reject salvation by FAITH AND GRACE ALONE as you don't believe a Christian can make it in to heaven by FAITH AND GRACE ALONE if they produce NO WORKS! But what you fail to remember, is that the thief made it into heaven and he did NO WORKS AT ALL! And the same gospel which saved the thief saves the true Christian too.

HOWEVER, there is a WORK that saves us! NOTICE SINGULAR NOT PLURAL! AND THE WORK that saves us was mentioned by Jesus.

John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

THE WORK THAT WE WILL BE JUDGED BY IS "DID YOU PUT FAITH IN JESUS!!!"

Dear oh dear Felix, for someone who claims to have PERFECT INTERPRETATION AND UNDERSTANDING OF ENTIRE SCRIPTURE, YOU REALLY SHOULD KNOW THIS STUFF!

Let me rephrase your question from your own quote:FAITH AND GRACE ALONE.

What 'FAITH' are you referring to?

1. Dead?
2. Alive?

Because Scripture says, FAITH without WORKS is 'D-E-A-D'. So, which FAITH are you having?

 

[francisdesales]

All I know Felix is that after reading your beliefs and teachings, I have concluded that you teach Eastern Mysticism and bits of Hinduism, and not Scripture!!!

Can you please cite specific Eastern Mystical/Hindu teachings that Felix is supposedly teaching? Merely repeating this in the face of Felix's denial without any citations or evidence is poor taste and again shows your fruit... (or more attempts to show your spiritual egotism).

Regards

 

[Former Christian]

Truthseeker2012


Mysticism
1 belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
2 belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.
(Oxford Dictionary)

Contemplation being the same as meditation in Biblical terms.

Christianity, like many religions, claims to be in contact with the supernatural. That is what mysticism is all about according to the first definition. And that is in keeping with this thread, which is about baptism by the Holy Spirit. The whole idea of the book of Acts is that the Apostles, along with their followers, gained knowledge inaccessible to the intellect through supernatural means. Through the Holy Spirit. Paul speaks of certain gifts for that purpose, through the Holy Spirit, active in the ekklesia at the time. (1 Cor 12-14)

The Holy Spirit has access to everyone through their human spirit. And that human spirit is not dead, as many surmise. Otherwise no one would be saved. Everyone would be Atheists, not knowing anything about God. Everyone would simply die in their sins. How could the Holy Spirit contact humanity without this connection. Osmosis? Humanity is created with a human spirit, through which those who are in Christ receives knowledge and serves God. Joseph had visions regarding the situation concerning himself, his wife Mary and their son Jesus. He didn’t try to interpret these dreams. Instead he followed them. If he had interpreted, Mary would have been sent away privately and Jesus would have died when two years old. The problem with religion is that what is received is interpreted, either away or into something different.

Oh, there would be religion, even without any contact with the supernatural. But it would be something from the human mind alone. And as L. Ron Hubbard the science fiction writer proved, anyone can create a religion. And like the Scientology he created, it doesn’t even have to have a God. Though some would argue that science or mankind, or the money it rakes in, is its God.

What the one who is in Christ receives is from that same Spirit that gave visions to Joseph. They receive knowledge and their experience should coincide with that knowledge. That is the experience of the supernatural. It is mystical. The mystics of other religions experienced something of the supernatural. Sometimes they interpreted what they received, but not always. Otherwise there would be nothing the same between the religions. And there are things the same. You would no doubt consider Orthodox and Catholics non-Christians because there is an element of the supernatural, of mysticism, in their Tradition. That would be your loss. Because apart from mysticism, there is no religion. There is nothing more than what Atheists have. No God in all practicality. Atheists interpreting a book that has nothing to do with God in their estimation because to them God doesn’t exist, even though that book is all about God.

Hindu writings are mostly hymnology and ritual. Mostly prayer in relation to their natural lives. Very much like what is given in the Old Testament. But they believe in the supernatural, which is why they pray in the first place. Also very much like what is given in the Old Testament. By just accusing one of Hindu mysticism in a disparaging way, you deny the supernatural. Whatever mysticism exists in Felix, which in his own words only consists of receiving from the Holy Spirit what he believes is the teaching of Christ through that Spirit, is a Biblical idea. No matter how much you might disagree with what he has received, or how he has interpreted it, the means of receiving is very Biblical, and very mystical.

Francis the Catholic is here defending Felix. In time, he will turn against him deriding his individualism in what he has received. But that is not so for the moment. In Catholic Tradition, not practiced today by any Catholics I know, is the matter of mysticism. The ability of individuals to contact and be in union with God. With the Father and/or the Son through the Holy Spirit. Through the practice of meditation (contemplation) and self-sacrifice. Self-sacrifice in the sense of giving up their own lives and take up their cross to follow Christ. All Biblical ideas. There is none of that in Protestant Tradition. Or is there? The encouragement to have a relationship with God and/or Jesus Christ, doesn’t that smack of mysticism? Go ahead. Deny that’s mysticism. Make my day.

If you are having no mystical experience, then you aren’t a true believer in the Bible because the Bible is all about mysticism. A personal relationship with a personal God. The Bible is a mystical book. To deny this mysticism is to deny the existence of the supernatural and thus you aren’t even a Christian. All Christians at least believe in the supernatural, even if some only believe in a Deistic sense. If you have not experienced the mystical, you are a practical Atheist practicing a religion and claiming to be religious, claiming to be a Christian. And baptism has no practical meaning or value for you other than a ritual of your religion.

FC

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Truthseeker2012


Mysticism
1 belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
2 belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.
(Oxford Dictionary)

Contemplation being the same as meditation in Biblical terms.

Christianity, like many religions, claims to be in contact with the supernatural. That is what mysticism is all about according to the first definition. And that is in keeping with this thread, which is about baptism by the Holy Spirit. The whole idea of the book of Acts is that the Apostles, along with their followers, gained knowledge inaccessible to the intellect through supernatural means. Through the Holy Spirit. Paul speaks of certain gifts for that purpose, through the Holy Spirit, active in the ekklesia at the time. (1 Cor 12-14)

The Holy Spirit has access to everyone through their human spirit. And that human spirit is not dead, as many surmise. Otherwise no one would be saved. Everyone would be Atheists, not knowing anything about God. Everyone would simply die in their sins. How could the Holy Spirit contact humanity without this connection. Osmosis? Humanity is created with a human spirit, through which those who are in Christ receives knowledge and serves God. Joseph had visions regarding the situation concerning himself, his wife Mary and their son Jesus. He didn’t try to interpret these dreams. Instead he followed them. If he had interpreted, Mary would have been sent away privately and Jesus would have died when two years old. The problem with religion is that what is received is interpreted, either away or into something different.

Oh, there would be religion, even without any contact with the supernatural. But it would be something from the human mind alone. And as L. Ron Hubbard the science fiction writer proved, anyone can create a religion. And like the Scientology he created, it doesn’t even have to have a God. Though some would argue that science or mankind, or the money it rakes in, is its God.

What the one who is in Christ receives is from that same Spirit that gave visions to Joseph. They receive knowledge and their experience should coincide with that knowledge. That is the experience of the supernatural. It is mystical. The mystics of other religions experienced something of the supernatural. Sometimes they interpreted what they received, but not always. Otherwise there would be nothing the same between the religions. And there are things the same. You would no doubt consider Orthodox and Catholics non-Christians because there is an element of the supernatural, of mysticism, in their Tradition. That would be your loss. Because apart from mysticism, there is no religion. There is nothing more than what Atheists have. No God in all practicality. Atheists interpreting a book that has nothing to do with God in their estimation because to them God doesn’t exist, even though that book is all about God.

Hindu writings are mostly hymnology and ritual. Mostly prayer in relation to their natural lives. Very much like what is given in the Old Testament. But they believe in the supernatural, which is why they pray in the first place. Also very much like what is given in the Old Testament. By just accusing one of Hindu mysticism in a disparaging way, you deny the supernatural. Whatever mysticism exists in Felix, which in his own words only consists of receiving from the Holy Spirit what he believes is the teaching of Christ through that Spirit, is a Biblical idea. No matter how much you might disagree with what he has received, or how he has interpreted it, the means of receiving is very Biblical, and very mystical.

Francis the Catholic is here defending Felix. In time, he will turn against him deriding his individualism in what he has received. But that is not so for the moment. In Catholic Tradition, not practiced today by any Catholics I know, is the matter of mysticism. The ability of individuals to contact and be in union with God. With the Father and/or the Son through the Holy Spirit. Through the practice of meditation (contemplation) and self-sacrifice. Self-sacrifice in the sense of giving up their own lives and take up their cross to follow Christ. All Biblical ideas. There is none of that in Protestant Tradition. Or is there? The encouragement to have a relationship with God and/or Jesus Christ, doesn’t that smack of mysticism? Go ahead. Deny that’s mysticism. Make my day.

If you are having no mystical experience, then you aren’t a true believer in the Bible because the Bible is all about mysticism. A personal relationship with a personal God. The Bible is a mystical book. To deny this mysticism is to deny the existence of the supernatural and thus you aren’t even a Christian. All Christians at least believe in the supernatural, even if some only believe in a Deistic sense. If you have not experienced the mystical, you are a practical Atheist practicing a religion and claiming to be religious, claiming to be a Christian. And baptism has no practical meaning or value for you other than a ritual of your religion.

FC

There is, no such thing as a, "former Christian." Either you, became a, Spiritually Born again Christian" or you were, self deceived into believing you were saved. Another choice, to be considered, is that someone along your path of life, deceived you into believing you were a Christian. Can a person become born again physically? Once you are born (physically) you cannot change that. Once you are Born again (Spiritually) there's no going back and being, (unborn Spiritually.) When one becomes saved, he is, sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, it's a point of no return.

Not ALL who say they are Christians, are indeed, true Christians. The Bible says that few, (paraphrased) people actually will receive God's gift of Salvation compared to the majority that won't. Every person who is born (physically) has been born with a, free will and the ability to place their faith (also given by God) in something. Some choose, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Atheism, etc.,etc. You, as a human will choose one or the other. But there is only ONE truth.

 

[Webb]

Hello Grubal

You make the same mistake Nicodemus made.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

There is, no such thing as a, "former Christian." Either you, became a, Spiritually Born again Christian" or you were, self deceived into believing you were saved. ..

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Former Christian]

Grubal Muruch

And Truthseeker2012 who said Amen to what he said.


“Not ALL who say they are Christians, are indeed, true Christians.â€

If this is true, then couldn’t it also be true that not all who are truly “born again/from above are Christians? Do you equate the Bible with Christianity, so that both stand or fall together?

“But there is only ONE truth.â€

And you equate Christianity with that one truth? Christianity that is full of division against the express wishes of Jesus Christ himself? Christianity that expresses so much diversity of truth, that each denomination has to have a distinctive name of it’s own? Christianity that practices closed communion against itself, because those within are more concerned for their own truths than with objective truth? Christianity wherein denominations vie for the position of the true expression of Christianity? Christianity that does not keep the unity of the Spirit against the express wishes of Paul? You equate this Christianity with the one truth?

FC

 

[francisdesales]

.

Francis the Catholic is here defending Felix. In time, he will turn against him deriding his individualism in what he has received. But that is not so for the moment.

My "defense" of Felix is not predicated on his beliefs over Truthseeker, but rather, trying to moderate fair discussion a bit. Forgive me if I am sounding like a Moderator, when I am not.

Your second sentence is an unfair representation for what you and I disagree on. There is nothing wrong with individualism or subjective "revelations" - as long as we keep in mind that there are also objective ones that we are to adhere to, as well.

.

In Catholic Tradition, not practiced today by any Catholics I know, is the matter of mysticism. The ability of individuals to contact and be in union with God.

That is untrue, again. Is this opinion based upon the two or three Catholics that you know intimately enough to know their prayer life???

There is a very long tradition of mysticism within the Catholic Church. Most monastics practice DAILY some form of contemplative prayer. In addition, many lay persons, including myself, practice the Divine Hours and/or Eucharistic Adoration, which are both old traditions of mysticism. Now, just because a few of the Catholics you know do not advertise this with you (or don't practice it) means very little regarding the overall state of mysticism practiced at the individual level in the Catholic Church.

We must admit that this is the fallacy of generalization based upon a very limited knowledge of the subject.

.

Through the practice of meditation (contemplation) and self-sacrifice.

Prayer and fasting and Lent. Yea, Catholics don't do that no more...2

Why are you making such comments? Are you trying to start another Catholic thread? What does this have to do with what Hinduism is and what Felix believes - some sort of belief that he holds that Truthseeker has yet to point out specifically?

.

Self-sacrifice in the sense of giving up their own lives and take up their cross to follow Christ. All Biblical ideas. There is none of that in Protestant Tradition. Or is there?

There is, I am certain of that. Ever hear of Bonhoeffer and those who follow something akin to what he wrote about? Again, you are moving into gross generalizations because of your limited experiences with a few denominational gatherings...

Regards

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Grubal Muruch

And Truthseeker2012 who said Amen to what he said.


“Not ALL who say they are Christians, are indeed, true Christians.”

If this is true, then couldn’t it also be true that not all who are truly “born again/from above are Christians? Do you equate the Bible with Christianity, so that both stand or fall together?

“But there is only ONE truth.”

And you equate Christianity with that one truth? Christianity that is full of division against the express wishes of Jesus Christ himself? Christianity that expresses so much diversity of truth, that each denomination has to have a distinctive name of it’s own? Christianity that practices closed communion against itself, because those within are more concerned for their own truths than with objective truth? Christianity wherein denominations vie for the position of the true expression of Christianity? Christianity that does not keep the unity of the Spirit against the express wishes of Paul? You equate this Christianity with the one truth?

FC

The true Christians are those who have sincere LOVE for others and those who accept Jesus as their 100% COMPLETE and ONE and ONLY SOLE Saviour!

And the fake christians who have never been truly saved, are the ones who mistreat people, talk nasty to people, who don't truly love people and those who claim Jesus is their Saviour, but they also claim they MUST PERFORM WORKS AND HUMAN EFFORTS to gain God's favour and salvation. IN reality they have REJECTED JESUS as their 100% COMPLETE and ONE and ONLY SOLE Saviour, and instead trust in themselves and their OWN WORKS AND EFFORTS to get saved!

I have personally known many Catholics for example who tell me they are Christian...but they never attend Church, they live a life of sin and don't care and have rejected Jesus as their COMPLETE Savoir by trusting in their OWN WORKS to get right with God. And look at all the Catholic Mafia members, they do attend Church and claim to follow Christ, but by their fruit they are PHONY!

I met a woman just the other week, she told me she is Catholic. So I said to her, that's great, me too. How long has Jesus been your Lord and Savior? She shrugged her shoulders and told me she doesn't know and doesn't really practice it. To this I shook my head and realised so many people say they are Catholic, but they are not followers of Christ at all.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal Muruch

And Truthseeker2012 who said Amen to what he said.


“Not ALL who say they are Christians, are indeed, true Christians.”

If this is true, then couldn’t it also be true that not all who are truly “born again/from above are Christians? Do you equate the Bible with Christianity, so that both stand or fall together?

“But there is only ONE truth.”
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Bible and Christianity are inseparable. The Bible states that, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Romans 10:17) Without the Bible, how could anyone know the will of God concerning Salvation? Anyone who is, "Born Again" IS a Christian, by definition. Paul, wrote to the early churches, to keep the truths (about Salvation) pure. But throughout the church age men have subverted the original truth, and added their own interpretations/imaginings. The Salvation message is logical and simplistic in it's presentation to the human race. Man devises false doctrine/teachings and creates confusion (to the delight of dark forces.)

Mormonism, Calvinism, Jehovah's witness, and several other "ism's" have distorted the truth of God's Word. Along with many denominations within the traditional Christian circles. There is only one truth but several counterfeits...

 

[francisdesales]

The true Christians are those who have sincere LOVE for others and those who accept Jesus as their 100% COMPLETE and ONE and ONLY SOLE Saviour!

A true Christian is anyone baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They have been sealed by the Spirit of God, and that cannot be taken away. You are now stating that only by your "work", loving others, that you are truly a Christian. Isn't that ironic? The "faith alone" guy now is adding to what is needed to be a true Christian...

I am curious to know your stance on the Prodigal Son and if he was no longer the son of the father while living a life of perdition. Please tell me if the FATHER considered the son STILL a son during that time? Was he no longer a "true son" during that time of sin? Ask yourself...

You are acting just like the other son, indignant because the "sinnner son" had some issues, are you not?

And the fake christians who have never been truly saved,

I find this a major problem with your "theology" and shows just how shallow it is.

First, the so-called "fake" Christian is not always like this. They feel they really were touched by the Spirit and are saved. They THINK they are "once saved always saved".

Now, fast-forward to some difficult time that challenges their faith. As Jesus stated in Luke 8, they had faith FOR AWHILE, but then fall away. They HAD faith, believing they were OSAS, but later, for whatever reason, they fall away.

People like you, from your self-righteous ivory tower, condemn such and call them "fake Christians", explaining away their current status as "never were saved". You can't have it both ways!!!

Either a person was saved and fell away or OSAS is utterly false, overturned by YOU and your ilk!!! You can't be "OSAS" one day and then later be "never saved to begin with". It is a lie, to those who are able to think a bit.

are the ones who mistreat people, talk nasty to people, who don't truly love people and those who claim Jesus is their Saviour

Which means that "true Christians" are utterly perfect. 2

Let me know when you get to that part of Scriptures that calls people with such ideas "liars" (1 John)

, but they also claim they MUST PERFORM WORKS AND HUMAN EFFORTS to gain God's favour and salvation.

Who here has said that one must, by human efforts, gain God's favor to be saved? Talk about red herring...

I have personally known many Catholics for example who tell me they are Christian...but they never attend Church, they live a life of sin and don't care and have rejected Jesus as their COMPLETE Savoir by trusting in their OWN WORKS to get right with God. And look at all the Catholic Mafia members, they do attend Church and claim to follow Christ, but by their fruit they are PHONY!

I know many Protestants in the same situation... It appears that there are many Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, who need help and enlightenment from their brothers and sisters, rather than condemnation. i guess your "strain" of Christianity is better at condemning others, in the mold of the Pharisees.

Regards

 

[adelphos]

If anyone truly wants the truth about this topic, study this thread.

If anyone does not want the truth about it, don't study it.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/baptism-holy-spirit-scriptural-study-31052/

Hello John,

I thought you had some good things to say in your study, but from my perspective, some of what you shared needs fined tuned. Thanks for taking the time to share.

Respectfully,

Adelphos

 

[Grubal Muruch]

A true Christian is anyone baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They have been sealed by the Spirit of God, and that cannot be taken away. You are now stating that only by your "work", loving others, that you are truly a Christian. Isn't that ironic? The "faith alone" guy now is adding to what is needed to be a true Christian...

With all due respect, Once a person has become, "saved" (Born again Spiritually) good works/fruit will follow. The good works/fruits have NOTHING to do with, getting that person Saved, but are a result of being, indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are "Saved" by God's Grace, not by OUR works. Faith is the, "catalyst" which begins the process.

We are ALL (physically born) with "free will" to choose what we will believe. God has created us this way. We're not Saved by works or faith, but by, God's Grace.

 

[francisdesales]

With all due respect, Once a person has become, "saved" (Born again Spiritually) good works/fruit will follow.

Not necessarily. The Bible states that good fruits don't always follow, just because we believe in Jesus or have had our sins forgiven... Consider James 2. What is the premise for this, the reason for his writing the second chapter? Because faith is NOT a "conveyor-belt" that leads automatically to good deeds...

Good works/fruits are a result of God's work within us, not a "conveyor-belt" notion of faith, which at a deeper level, sounds like God gives the gift of faith and then man's work provides the faith-filled works.

The good works/fruits have NOTHING to do with, getting that person Saved,

It depends on what you mean by 'being saved'. The bible does not use just one definition for "being saved".

but are a result of being, indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Are you stating that faith does not come from the Spirit of God? If it does, explain the difference in Spirit-moved faith and Spirit-moved love.

We are "Saved" by God's Grace, not by OUR works. Faith is the, "catalyst" which begins the process.

First, I never said we are saved by OUR good works. I have agreed over and over to "we are saved by God's grace, not by anything else".

Secondly, faith is not the "catalyst", God is the catalyst. Faith in God's existence does not do anything without God's Spirit. Consider the devil, who also believes but has not done any good works of love...

Faith prepares and motivates us, giving us the proper inner disposition to do good works of love. It directs our good deeds (which we CAN perform before we come to faith, by the way!!!) in a super-natural direction. However, faith and works are both human/divine interactions. God is present and provides us the ability for both. "Faith is the catalyst" takes God out of the equation of good works, which is in contradiction to the words of Jesus - "without me, you can do nothing [good]"...

We are ALL (physically born) with "free will" to choose what we will believe. God has created us this way. We're not Saved by works or faith, but by, God's Grace.

I agree, we are redeemed by God's grace. But salvation has other meanings than "forgiveness of sin". It can also meaning attaining eternal life or entering the Kingdom. Clearly, God places within us the necessary abilities to have faith, repentance, love, hope and obedience. Thus, NONE of these responses can be entirely claimed by men. Without the impetus from God, we have nothing. But in Christ, I am a new creation, quite capable of doing ALL of the above.

Regards

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

There is only one baptism, water baptism.

I believe the Ephesians 4:4-6 were not referencing water baptism at all, but just the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ.

Both statements are problematic and in a way ignore the message Paul was delivering in Ephesians. He was not writing about the method of mode of baptism, but rather of the idea that for the saints, everything boils down to Jesus. The one faith, is faith in Jesus. The one church/community, is Jesus' community. And the one baptism, is baptism into Jesus!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Not necessarily. The Bible states that good fruits don't always follow, just because we believe in Jesus or have had our sins forgiven... Consider James 2. What is the premise for this, the reason for his writing the second chapter? Because faith is NOT a "conveyor-belt" that leads automatically to good deeds...

Good works/fruits are a result of God's work within us, not a "conveyor-belt" notion of faith, which at a deeper level, sounds like God gives the gift of faith and then man's work provides the faith-filled works.



It depends on what you mean by 'being saved'. The bible does not use just one definition for "being saved".



Are you stating that faith does not come from the Spirit of God? If it does, explain the difference in Spirit-moved faith and Spirit-moved love.



First, I never said we are saved by OUR good works. I have agreed over and over to "we are saved by God's grace, not by anything else".

Secondly, faith is not the "catalyst", God is the catalyst. Faith in God's existence does not do anything without God's Spirit. Consider the devil, who also believes but has not done any good works of love...

Faith prepares and motivates us, giving us the proper inner disposition to do good works of love. It directs our good deeds (which we CAN perform before we come to faith, by the way!!!) in a super-natural direction. However, faith and works are both human/divine interactions. God is present and provides us the ability for both. "Faith is the catalyst" takes God out of the equation of good works, which is in contradiction to the words of Jesus - "without me, you can do nothing [good]"...



I agree, we are redeemed by God's grace. But salvation has other meanings than "forgiveness of sin". It can also meaning attaining eternal life or entering the Kingdom. Clearly, God places within us the necessary abilities to have faith, repentance, love, hope and obedience. Thus, NONE of these responses can be entirely claimed by men. Without the impetus from God, we have nothing. But in Christ, I am a new creation, quite capable of doing ALL of the above.

Regards

You have stated that, "faith is not the catalyst that begins the Salvation process." I call your attention to Luke:8:43-48. Here Christ has acknowledged this ladies faith as making her well. I ask you, did the woman's faith play a part in this healing??? In Matthew 8:5-13 It
speaks about the Centurion's faith and how it played a part in the healing, Jesus told him, "Go your way;and as you have believed, so let it be done for you." Jesus didn't just come across some guy and heal him. Quite the contrary, the Centurion's faith was the catalyst by which the servant was healed. (Jesus said so Himself.) Ephesians 2:8-9 states, " For by grace you have been saved through "faith," (Man's personal faith) and that not of yourselves; (not of any works of your own) it is the gift of God, (It's speaking of God's gift of grace) not of works, lest anyone should boast." Abraham (Old Testament) believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
As we see, man's (God given ability to put his faith in something he believes in) faith does play a part in the Salvation plans of God...

 

[francisdesales]

You have stated that, "faith is not the catalyst that begins the Salvation process." I call your attention to Luke:8:43-48. Here Christ has acknowledged this ladies faith as making her well.

It is not only her faith, since God moves her. To what degree we can say God does and what we do, we will never know. However, we do know that the Scriptures often speak of "his faith" as something of our own, while also noting that it is a gift and is not generated by our own selves. For my answer, please keep that in mind.

Faith is not something that sets off our works independent of God. Philipians tells us that God moves in us the will and desire to do good. Not faith, as if it was a pill or magic. Faith sets the background for what we do and why we do it. It allows us to say "yes" to God's will more readily. But faith alone has no ability to save us - since the Scriptures tell us that faith ITSELF is a gift.

The answer is "yes", the woman's faith was instrumental in her healing (which is what Jesus here meant by "saved", not to eternal life. remember that "saved" has temporal meaning, as well, to Jews). But was it alone? Of course not. She didn't just sit there, firmly believing that Jesus could heal her. She did something! And of course, the term "faith" here does take on a more encompassing meaning - as to "walk", rather than intellectual belief.

I stated before that there is a deeper level of meaning to the synergy that exists and how man and God work together to make manifest "faith" or "hope" or "love". We are not merely passive vessels, but on the other hand, we cannot hope to do this without God.

It seems that we agree here for the most part, but semantics are getting in the way.

Regards

 

[John Zain]

I'm not drawing a direct equivalence, but again I'm still studying the various verses that discuss the diverse ministries of the Holy Spirit. That being said, Titus 3:5 does share some terminology with John 7:38-39 (which speaks of indwelling) in terms of associating the Spirit with (spiritual/symbolic) water. What is your assessment of that association and its significance?

Well here I must ask you an important question. If you are, as you seem to be, suggesting this against the idea of Baptism of the Spirit being associated with regeneration (Titus 3:5 - which is where the only occurrence in Scripture of the word paliggensia, regeneration, as applied to the individual is found - although the Greek word paliggensia is used one other time in Scripture in Matthew, but in an eschatalogical context), and rather associating salvation with Baptism of the Spirit - I must therefore ask what makes you distinguish salvation from regeneration? What prevents me from fully divorcing salvation from regeneration (or at least from viewing regeneration as the means of salvation) is in fact Titus 3:5 which says, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (NASB). The KJV, NKJV, NIV, and YLT are even clearer and put the two bolded portions right beside one another syntactically (which is how the Greek reads: ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας).
"He saved us," it says. How? "By the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit". What is your take on that?

Josh, there are a whole pile of verses re: the Spirit being INSIDE of born-again believers.

I have never suggested that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is connected with any kind of regeneration.

This baptism is only about a special anointing on certain people for special tasks.

I am sure that in the NT church there were no apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers (Eph 4:11)
who did not have this baptism.

Ditto for the 9 spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12).
If anyone thinks they have one of these without this baptism,
believe me, it is only a shadow of the really powerful gift.

Titus 3:5-7 is problematic ... it seems to talk of both salvation and sanctification.
One verse talking about the Spirit being poured out on people when they are saved
does not discount all of the other verses which distinguish the huge difference between IN and UPON.
Please see ... http://www.christianforums.net/f17/there-difference-between-upon-39405/