Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Free]

Scripture explicitly says Yahweh God is a "complex One" (0259 אֶחָד 'echad), not a "simple One". There is a difference.

As I have already stated in this discussion, echad does not affirm the Trinity nor does it deny it. Echad can mean a compound, or complex, unity but not necessarily; it depends on context. It simply leaves open the possibility that God is triune.

 

[theWind]

1Jo 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2, Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3, And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2, The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

I hope that you can see that the Father inhabits eternity and therefore cannot exist in human flesh in the Person of the Father.

But the Son, who carries the name of Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6), is the same Spirit as the Father, existing in human flesh.

Wow. None of those verses referred to the Holy Spirit.

Nice try, though.

So, as you meant to say, the Father is omnipresent and infinite, etc., but He's just not capable/powerful enough to indwell human flesh which HE created?

Ok then.

Isaiah 9:6 says Jesus is "THE" Everlasting Father. There can only be ONE Everlasting Father, ... unfortunately for the desperate need of the trinitarians to take any scrap of chance they can find to force their completely unbiblical doctrine.

 

[theWind]

It says it sounds like you are in a cult. Most of them deny that Jesus is God.

Except that I can back up every single aspect of my doctrine with plain Scripture.

What's your excuse?

 

[theWind]

How is that? And that is just what I noticed by skimming through.

That's not gonna work. I have asked repeatedly for a "teaching" from the Bible that explains the "concept" of God being three persons - which is exactly what would be required at a minimum if the concept was a sound, legitimate Biblical doctrine. You have yet to produce that.

It seems the issue is that you want verses that explicitly state a trinitarian formula, such as, "I am three persons in one," "I am triune," "I am a trinity," or "Within the one being that is God, there exists three coequal, coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Nope. I'll settle for just one little sentence or passage that specifically teaches the concept of the trinity. Not a verse that you claim refers to it, it can't be referring to a doctrine/concept that is not clearly outlined in the Bible somewhere.

You won't find one but that does not mean all the foundations aren't there. I have given several arguments, supported by Scripture, that show these foundations are taught.

Arguments that you claim are supported by Scripture does not suffice as a Biblical teaching of a doctrine. You are being intentionally stubborn in not accepting what I have stated plainly many times now.

All are spoken of as distinct "persons"

Where does the Bible speak of the Spirit as being a distinct person? I have posted Romans 8:9-11 so many times now I can't even count. Why do you refuse to see what those verses make plain?

Jesus .... IS .... the Holy Spirit.

Are you angry with the Bible? It couldn't make it more plain.

John 14:21 shows Jesus Himself claiming that it is HIM that comes to live with us. Where in verses 21-23 do you see Him mention anything whatsoever about the Holy Spirit as some additional person? He doesn't mention a third person, nor does He mention any spirit.

 

[BPPLEE]

That's not gonna work. I have asked repeatedly for a "teaching" from the Bible that explains the "concept" of God being three persons - which is exactly what would be required at a minimum if the concept was a sound, legitimate Biblical doctrine. You have yet to produce that.

Nope. I'll settle for just one little sentence or passage that specifically teaches the concept of the trinity. Not a verse that you claim refers to it, it can't be referring to a doctrine/concept that is not clearly outlined in the Bible somewhere.

Arguments that you claim are supported by Scripture does not suffice as a Biblical teaching of a doctrine. You are being intentionally stubborn in not accepting what I have stated plainly many times now.

Where does the Bible speak of the Spirit as being a distinct person? I have posted Romans 8:9-11 so many times now I can't even count. Why do you refuse to see what those verses make plain?

Jesus .... IS .... the Holy Spirit.

Are you angry with the Bible? It couldn't make it more plain.

John 14:21 shows Jesus Himself claiming that it is HIM that comes to live with us. Where in verses 21-23 do you see Him mention anything whatsoever about the Holy Spirit as some additional person? He doesn't mention a third person, nor does He mention any spirit.

Jhn 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[BPPLEE]

Except that I can back up every single aspect of my doctrine with plain Scripture.

What's your excuse?

Then we may agree on some things. Is Jesus God?

 

[Cooper]

The Word was not the Father. John 1:1 makes that an impossibility, as do other verses, as I have dealt with a few times already.


Of course not. Neither of those have anything to do with the doctrine of the Trinity.


God is a title and is often used in the NT to refer to just the Father, but that doesn't mean God is only the Father. God cannot be defined as either the Father or the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Either God is only the Father or he is not; it cannot be both ways (maybe that's what you mean).

And when we take all that God reveals of himself in Scripture, the strongest conclusion is that he is triune.


Actually, the grammar demands it. Beginning in 1:1a, "In the beginning was the Word," means that the Word was already in existence when the beginning began, that is, before time and space were created, before anything was created. This means the Word is not something that was created and has always existed. That is supported by John 1:3.

In 1:1b, "the Word was with God," the article is present ("the God"), which means that the Word was with (direction towards, as in intimate relationship or communion) the Father. In 1:1c, the article is absent (simply just "God"), which means, in the end, that it is a qualitative statement; it is saying that the Word was divine, or deity. If John had repeated "the God," then yes, it would have been referring to Father in both instances. And that would have equated "the Word" with "God," so that the two would be interchangeable, but John purposefully avoided that.


Does that really make sense? Are you yourself and with yourself?


Does this really make sense?


Not at all. It is the only thing that makes sense. If you say that you are yourself and with yourself, that isn't at all rational. However, if you are a son and you are with your father, that makes complete, coherent sense with reality. People are with other people; sons are with their fathers. We also know that sons are of the same nature as their fathers, always.

And that is precisely what we see in John 1:1. The Word was with the Father and the Word was in nature God.

There is a reason why God reveals himself, in part, as a Father and Son in relationship--because we can fully understand what that means; it communicates something to us and has meaning. However, if God actually means that as the Father he is also his own Son, and vice versa, then his use of the Father/Son relationship is meaningless and it communicates nothing to us.

What you seem to want to believe, as theWind believes, is that a son can be his own father and a father his own son. But that is irrational. A son, by definition, cannot be his own father, nor a father his own son, even when it comes to God. As C.S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God.


Not at all. Again, neither of those is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. To say otherwise is a straw man.


I have shown that that is not always the case. Grammar matters.


No, the Word was the pre-incarnate Son in intimate relationship with the Father, as one would expect in a Father/Son relationship.


What about it?

Job 29:16 I was a father to the needy, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know.

Isa 22:20 In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,
Isa 22:21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

That the son, who is given, will be called "Everlasting Father," refers to the Messiah's benevolent reign as king.

John 1:1 says the Word was God.
Verse 14 tells us Jesus had the Fathers glory.
.

 

[Cooper]

Then we may agree on some things. Is Jesus God?

Yes. Jesus is God, the Father is God, God is Spirit. One God. The One God was made visible.
.

 

[theWind]

Jhn 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,whatsoever I have said unto you.

OOPS!

John 15:26 - (Jesus speaking) "... when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, He shall testify of Me:"

 

[theWind]

Then we may agree on some things. Is Jesus God?

Jesus is The Eternal Father. Just as the Bible says He is.
Isaiah 9:6

Who sends the Spirit? Uh-oh, the sender is declared to be BOTH the Father and the Son. Hmmm.
John 14:26
John 15:26

And who must we go through to get to God, the Father or the Son? Whoops! The Bible says we must go through each of them to get to the other. That only makes sense if they are the same person.
John 6:44
John 14:6

Keep studying.

 

[Free]

John 1:1 says the Word was God.

John 1:1 says more than that, as I have pointed out more than once in this thread. If you care to address what I have said, since no one else is interested, that would be great.

Verse 14 tells us Jesus had the Fathers glory.
.

It also says more than that:

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)

Sons come from fathers; sons have fathers and are of the same nature. It is nonsense to say that a father is his own son and son is his own father.

 

[Free]

That's not gonna work. I have asked repeatedly for a "teaching" from the Bible that explains the "concept" of God being three persons - which is exactly what would be required at a minimum if the concept was a sound, legitimate Biblical doctrine. You have yet to produce that.

That's not what this particular issue was about. You stated that: "What exactly is it that you keep 'claiming' I have not addressed."

I replied with links to several posts that you either didn't address at all, or only addressed part, and I even stated what you didn't address. I then said, "How is that? And that is just what I noticed by skimming through."

And now you respond to that statement and my evidence without, once again, actually addressing what I stated. It strongly appears that you are again deflecting, to try and keep from addressing the arguments that you have ignored so far.

Nope. I'll settle for just one little sentence or passage that specifically teaches the concept of the trinity. Not a verse that you claim refers to it, it can't be referring to a doctrine/concept that is not clearly outlined in the Bible somewhere.

Do you see that you're actually making the same type of argument that atheists make? They often want a Christian to point out where God literally is--"Show me God and I'll believe." But it doesn't work that way. The Bible and creation are full of bits of evidences that, when taken altogether, strongly point at the existence of an intelligent being who created everything.

In this case, the Bible is full of bits of evidence that show God is triune. I have given a number of bits of evidence but, as I have pointed out, you have largely ignored most of it so far, and are continuing to deflect.

Arguments that you claim are supported by Scripture does not suffice as a Biblical teaching of a doctrine. You are being intentionally stubborn in not accepting what I have stated plainly many times now.

You haven't given anything solid and I have addressed all that you have given. However, you have largely ignored most of what I have given so far, so your assertion that "Arguments that you claim are supported by Scripture does not suffice as a Biblical teaching of a doctrine," is unsupported. You claiming it to be the case doesn't make it true.

Where does the Bible speak of the Spirit as being a distinct person?

I have given several passages which you ignored.

I have posted Romans 8:9-11 so many times now I can't even count. Why do you refuse to see what those verses make plain?

I have addressed that passage already; it's in post #125, which, as I pointed out, is a post you didn't even address. If you want to have an actual discussion, you need to actually engage with everything that others are saying, not just the easy things.

Jesus .... IS .... the Holy Spirit.

No, that is never stated. They are continually spoken of as distinct. Again, one has to ignore language, the rules of grammar, and logic in order to conclude that Jesus is the Father or that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

Are you angry with the Bible? It couldn't make it more plain.

Of course not. The Bible certainly does make plain the diversity within the unity of God.

John 14:21 shows Jesus Himself claiming that it is HIM that comes to live with us. Where in verses 21-23 do you see Him mention anything whatsoever about the Holy Spirit as some additional person? He doesn't mention a third person, nor does He mention any spirit.

Let's look at the context:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. (ESV)

They are distinct but intimately connected in relationship with each other, as John 1:1 shows in part. You're also missing the clear distinctness of the Father and the Son in verse 23--"we will come to him and make our home with him." Notice the use of plural pronouns. This makes no sense whatsoever if Jesus is the Father.

So, we have Jesus saying he "will ask the Father" to send "another Helper" (one like him but different; showing clear distinctness), who "will be in you." That is, the Holy Spirit will indwell believers. Then, Jesus says that both the Father and he "will come to [a believer] and make our home with him." It does not follow that since all three will in some way indwell a believer that they are all one and the same person. That would be to completely ignore the clear distinctions made throughout this passage.

Consider just earlier in that same passage:

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (ESV)

The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son. Such is the intimate relationship shown again. The Son doesn't even speak on his own authority, but on that of the Father. Notice that not once, ever, does Jesus claim to be the Father, but he does claim to be God.

 

[theWind]

Sons come from fathers; sons have fathers and are of the same nature. It is nonsense to say that a father is his own son and son is his own father.

It is only nonsense when you put human limitations on God Almighty who is unlimited and infinite.

That is the only way trinitarians can sustain their arguments is to place lowly limitations of mankind onto the Eternal.

Play fair, and use all the rules and laws that the Bible lays forth about God, and your case crumbles.

 

[JLB]

It is only nonsense when you put human limitations on God Almighty who is unlimited and infinite.

That is the only way trinitarians can sustain their arguments is to place lowly limitations of mankind onto the Eternal.

Play fair, and use all the rules and laws that the Bible lays forth about God, and your case crumbles.

What is the main difference between a “trinitarian” and what you believe?




JLB

 

[theWind]

That's not what this particular issue was about. You stated that: "What exactly is it that you keep 'claiming' I have not addressed."

I replied with links to several posts that you either didn't address at all, or only addressed part, and I even stated what you didn't address. I then said, "How is that? And that is just what I noticed by skimming through."

And now you respond to that statement and my evidence without, once again, actually addressing what I stated. It strongly appears that you are again deflecting, to try and keep from addressing the arguments that you have ignored so far.


Do you see that you're actually making the same type of argument that atheists make? They often want a Christian to point out where God literally is--"Show me God and I'll believe." But it doesn't work that way. The Bible and creation are full of bits of evidences that, when taken altogether, strongly point at the existence of an intelligent being who created everything.

In this case, the Bible is full of bits of evidence that show God is triune. I have given a number of bits of evidence but, as I have pointed out, you have largely ignored most of it so far, and are continuing to deflect.


You haven't given anything solid and I have addressed all that you have given. However, you have largely ignored most of what I have given so far, so your assertion that "Arguments that you claim are supported by Scripture does not suffice as a Biblical teaching of a doctrine," is unsupported. You claiming it to be the case doesn't make it true.


I have given several passages which you ignored.


I have addressed that passage already; it's in post #125, which, as I pointed out, is a post you didn't even address. If you want to have an actual discussion, you need to actually engage with everything that others are saying, not just the easy things.


No, that is never stated. They are continually spoken of as distinct. Again, one has to ignore language, the rules of grammar, and logic in order to conclude that Jesus is the Father or that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


Of course not. The Bible certainly does make plain the diversity within the unity of God.


Let's look at the context:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. (ESV)

They are distinct but intimately connected in relationship with each other, as John 1:1 shows in part. You're also missing the clear distinctness of the Father and the Son in verse 23--"we will come to him and make our home with him." Notice the use of plural pronouns. This makes no sense whatsoever if Jesus is the Father.

So, we have Jesus saying he "will ask the Father" to send "another Helper" (one like him but different; showing clear distinctness), who "will be in you." That is, the Holy Spirit will indwell believers. Then, Jesus says that both the Father and he "will come to [a believer] and make our home with him." It does not follow that since all three will in some way indwell a believer that they are all one and the same person. That would be to completely ignore the clear distinctions made throughout this passage.

Consider just earlier in that same passage:

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (ESV)

The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son. Such is the intimate relationship shown again. The Son doesn't even speak on his own authority, but on that of the Father. Notice that not once, ever, does Jesus claim to be the Father, but he does claim to be God.

What you are doing, in every single post that you have directed to me concerning my request for a specific teaching of the trinity from the Bible, is called beating all around the bush.

You have never produced a teaching from Scripture that explains and teaches a concept of God being three people.

You can come back and say, over and over if you like, that you've already done it and that I'm ignoring your answer, etc., etc., the fact stands that you have not produced it and you cannot simply post that passage from the Bible right now for all to see.

I'm aware you are a staff member here, but I don't see the point in us continuing to go in circles about this, as we have done now for 15 pages with no resolution.

I repeat my request, over and over, and you continue to give me anything and everything but what I'm asking for.

Believe what you prefer to believe.

God bless.

 

[theWind]

What is the main difference between a “trinitarian” and what you believe?

God is ONE individual.

Just as Scripture declares over and over.

Nowhere does the Bible declare God to be three persons.

Nowhere.

What is the main difference between my belief and what trinitarians believe?

My belief is fully supported by Scripture.

Their belief is found nowhere in the entire Bible.

 

[JLB]

God is ONE individual.

Just as Scripture declares over and over.

Scripture declares just the opposite of what you claim.


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

• and these three are one.

If this scripture said this one is three, then you would be correct.


But since it plainly says these three are one, then you are in error.



The three persons of the Godhead are one.





JLB

 

[Free]

It is only nonsense when you put human limitations on God Almighty who is unlimited and infinite.

No, it is still nonsense. As I stated before, there is a reason why God reveals himself, in part, as a Father and Son in relationship--because we can fully understand what that means; it communicates something to us and has meaning. However, if God actually means that as the Father he is also his own Son, and vice versa, then his use of the Father/Son relationship is meaningless and it communicates nothing to us.

A son, by definition, cannot be his own father, nor a father his own son, even when it comes to God. As C.S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God.

That is the only way trinitarians can sustain their arguments is to place lowly limitations of mankind onto the Eternal.

It's actually the other way around. We are made in God's image, which includes God's use of language and logic. Therefore, if we use the terminology of father and son, it is because God has used it first of himself. That is, it is our father/son relationships that are the metaphors.

Play fair, and use all the rules and laws that the Bible lays forth about God, and your case crumbles.

And, yet, as I have pointed out in several arguments, Modalism ignores plain use of language, the rules of grammar, and basic logic.

What you are doing, in every single post that you have directed to me concerning my request for a specific teaching of the trinity from the Bible, is called beating all around the bush.

You have never produced a teaching from Scripture that explains and teaches a concept of God being three people.

You can come back and say, over and over if you like, that you've already done it and that I'm ignoring your answer, etc., etc., the fact stands that you have not produced it and you cannot simply post that passage from the Bible right now for all to see.

I'm aware you are a staff member here, but I don't see the point in us continuing to go in circles about this, as we have done now for 15 pages with no resolution.

I repeat my request, over and over, and you continue to give me anything and everything but what I'm asking for.

See, you're doing it again. You have had ample opportunity to address the arguments I have presented, I have even pointed it out several times, and yet you still ignore them. I have addressed every single argument that you have put forward, I have stated that you will not find the evidence you want, but rather that the evidence is in bits that have to be taken altogether, and yet you completely ignore that as well as all the strongest arguments I have given. Those are the reasons why this is going in circles. It is entirely on you.

You cannot even produce a single verse that God is an absolute unity, an individual person. That is one argument you repeated and I repeatedly addressed, but you ignored the substance of my rebuttals. God is not yachid, he is echad.

Believe what you prefer to believe.

I believe what the Bible plainly teaches. Modalsim was rightly condemned as heresy a long time ago.

 

[JLB]

I believe what the Bible plainly teaches. Modalsim was rightly condemned as heresy a long time ago.

 

[Cooper]

John 1:1 says more than that, as I have pointed out more than once in this thread. If you care to address what I have said, since no one else is interested, that would be great.


It also says more than that:

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)

Sons come from fathers; sons have fathers and are of the same nature. It is nonsense to say that a father is his own son and son is his own father.

Don't forget, Jesus is both man in the flesh, and God in the Spirit. When Jesus speaks of the Father he is talking about the immaculate conception.
.