Three person God identified in the Bible?

[justbyfaith]

If you are saying that Jesus is not the Father, then you're just affirming an essential tenet of Trinitarianism.

The mormon idea of the Trinity, anyway.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi Paul E. Michael

That's exactly what I'm saying, don't know how that relates to trinitarianism. I'm not familiar with the term. Is it in the Scriptures?

God bless,
Ted

I'd be interested in any passage that undeniably teaches that Jesus is not the Father come in human flesh.

It would clear up this whole argument for me.

 

[miamited]

I'd be interested in any passage that teaches that Jesus is not the Father come in human flesh.

Hi justbyfaith

How about this claim of the Scriptures: "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." I mean I'm a fairly intelligent person and the Scriptures seem to make the claim that Jesus is not God, but is God's Son, who came in human form. Does that passage do it for you?

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations."

This is God, speaking to Isaiah, about the Messiah to come. He doesn't refer to him as the Father, but as His servant. I really can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that the claim is made that Jesus is the Father come in human flesh. You want me to prove a negative? But I can prove that there is nowhere in the Scriptures that we are told that Jesus is the Father.

God bless,
Ted

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi justbyfaith

How about this claim of the Scriptures: "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." I mean I'm a fairly intelligent person and the Scriptures seem to make the claim that Jesus is not God, but is God's Son, who came in human form. Does that passage do it for you?

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations."

This is God, speaking to Isaiah, about the Messiah to come. He doesn't refer to him as the Father, but as His servant. I really can't find anywhere in the Scriptures that the claim is made that Jesus is the Father come in human flesh. You want me to prove a negative? But I can prove that there is nowhere in the Scriptures that we are told that Jesus is the Father.

God bless,
Ted

I would disagree with you there, Ted.

Isaiah 9:6 and John 14:7-11 are both passages that, in my view, teach undeniably that Jesus is the Father come in human flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

How about this claim of the Scriptures: "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased."

I define the Sonship of Christ as His coming in the flesh.

As such, in His Deity He can in fact be the Father.

For I believe that He is the same Spirit as the Father (John 4:23-24, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4), being God;

That the Father is a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity and that the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.

 

[GodsGrace]

1) I believe that the central doctrine of Christianity is found in John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4;

and,

2) I believe that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35, Romans 1:3).

3) I believe that Jesus is still pre-existent into eternity past; since He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); that is, to exist outside of time.

For I would argue that if the Son is eternally begotten and is not the same Spirit / Person / God as the Father, that that is a 2nd God formed beside Him; which is expressly denied by the prophet Isaiah.

The problem is that You don't get to develope the doctrine of the Trinity nor declare it to be official.
That has already been done.

If you don't agree with what I posted you're not a trinitarian.

 

[GodsGrace]

The mormon idea of the Trinity, anyway.

Jesus is not the Father.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

That's exactly what I'm saying

Then all you are doing is affirming a tenet of Trinitarianism: the Son is not the Father.

, don't know how that relates to trinitarianism.

You don't know how a tenet of Trinitarianism relates to Trinitarianism?

I'm not familiar with the term. Is it in the Scriptures?

What term?

 

[GodsGrace]

I used to go and help my adopted mother Eunice with things she had to carry to certain places in her shopping cart. She used to always say, "Jesus sent him to me today to help me with my load."

One day, I went there because I needed something from her. She said the same thing.

But her sister promptly retorted, "Jesus didn't send him that time; he sent himself".

Note that I am not laying this before you as a parable;

But as an example of the possibility that someone can indeed send himself into a situation.

So the Father went to the cross?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then all you are doing is affirming a tenet of Trinitarianism: the Son is not the Father.

You don't know how a tenet of Trinitarianism relates to Trinitarianism?

What term?

I believe this thread has been going on this long because the Trinity cannot be understood by only biblical verses.

 

[justbyfaith]

The problem is that You don't get to develope the doctrine of the Trinity nor declare it to be official.
That has already been done.

If you don't agree with what I posted you're not a trinitarian.

I only disagree in instances where the Bible disagrees.

So the Bible is not trinitarian?

I think that I disagree with you there.

So the Father went to the cross?

The "Father come in human flesh" went to the Cross (Romans 4:24-25, Hebrews 9:16-22).

 

[justbyfaith]

Then all you are doing is affirming a tenet of Trinitarianism: the Son is not the Father.

mormonism.

 

[justbyfaith]

You don't know how a tenet of Trinitarianism relates to Trinitarianism?

That the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost is not a tenet of trinitarianism...except perhaps in mormon circles.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is not the Father.

Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7, Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The Father is a Spirit.

Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[miamited]

You don't know how a tenet of Trinitarianism relates to Trinitarianism?

Hi Paul E. Michael

No, I don't know all the specifics of what you seem to be referring to as a subset of christian doctrine that you're calling trinitarianism. Found this: Trinitarianism: A belief by some Christian denominations that God exists as three separate persons (called the Trinity) in a singular entity.

No, I don't support that basic tenet. That the three are a singular entity. No, I hold that God the Father and Jesus the Son and the abiding Holy Spirit are three different entities. One is called God the Father. The second is called Jesus, the Son. The third is merely the Holy Spirit who holds it all together for those who love God.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,...
Why would it be so if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. Why wouldn't blasphemy of all three not be subject to the same penalty if they're all the same entity? Seems a bit confusing and perhaps not right.
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
All three of them were mentioned in this passage and they are all identified separately.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven..."
So, I'm good with however you understand the relationship between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. For me, I'm sticking with God's word. "This is my Son. In whom I am well pleased."

God bless,
Ted

 

[Paul E. Michael]

That the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost is not a tenet of trinitarianism...except perhaps in mormon circles.

Are you trying to not be taken seriously by rationally-thinking people? It sounds like it, when you say asinine things like that.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7, Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The Father is a Spirit.

Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

justbyfaith, is the Atlantic Ocean the Pacific Ocean? Yes or No?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

For me, I'm sticking with God's word.

False. Insofar as you dissent from Trinitarianism, you are, on the contrary, not sticking with God's Word.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

What's your point? Notice that Jesus does not say "I am the Father".

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Since Jesus says the words He speaks unto them are not of Himself, then, if (as you claim) Jesus Himself is the Father, what you are making Jesus to say is "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of [the Father]." So, if not of the Father, then of whom would you say Jesus speaks the words that He speaks unto them?