Timing of the Tribulation

[Kathi]

Is this what a Glory Cloud is?
http://walkingchristian.com/2012/12/24/glory-cloud-real-or-fake/
or this?
http://www.rhema.org/index.php?opti...1:the-glory-cloud-appears-again231&Itemid=145

 

[Deborah13]

jocor
Mat 24:31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
G1996- from G1909 and G4863
G4863 - synagō -
Deu 30:4 `If thine outcast is in the extremity of the heavens, thence doth Jehovah thy God gather thee, and thence He doth take thee;

When Jesus spoke these words in Matt. He was speaking to people who had known Torah all their lives. They had heard the Torah read every Shabbat and they would have recognized this type of language and understood that He was not speaking about the literal heavens of the sky and beyond.

 

[Deborah13]

it would make sense that it could be but I don't think that the Cloud is god in that is part of the trinity.more like a manifestation of God but not God himself. as confusing as that is.

I'm thinking about when Moses couldn't look on the face of God. I think because of the glory.
I agree with you not God Himself.

reba Do you know the old pentecostal song that I can't think of that says "and His train fills the temple?" It came to mind just now.

 

[Deborah13]

Is this what a Glory Cloud is?
http://walkingchristian.com/2012/12/24/glory-cloud-real-or-fake/
or this?
http://www.rhema.org/index.php?opti...1:the-glory-cloud-appears-again231&Itemid=145

You know I do believe sometimes these things do happen. I know my daughter and she doesn't make things up.
When she was about 16 she was going to the same little church she attends now. One prayer and praise meeting they had been singing praise songs and then the band was just playing softly and everyone was praying quietly alone. She look up and saw what she could only describe as a dome that kind of looked like a bubble that was transparent but had soft rainbow colors in it. It was slightly pulsing and it moved. It began at the altar and grew until it was over the whole sanctuary. She kept watching it and then it just rose up through the ceiling. By the end of the meeting she had convinced herself she had been seeing things. Then a lady came up to her, touched her arm, and said, "You saw it too didn't you?" Lexy was relieved but confused. She had to ask what that was, she had never heard of anything like that.

 

[reba]

I am not getting straight answers.I feel like I am getting a runaround.Does it have anything to do with Gold Dust?

Kathi i gave you 2 straight answers ... one glory cloud is not a scriptural term #56

the other post # 59 glory cloud is jasonc's phrase..... no runaround...


Gold dust is not a scriptural phrase ... One way gold dust shows up is in the bottom of a 'gold pan' so fine it can not be picked up.... the other minerals are removed leaving the 'dust'

Post # 56 also has a question to you will you answer...

 

[jasonc]

in pentacolism they often call the presence of god in a church the glory cloud. old habit as they also call that the shekinah(glory) of god.

 

[reba]

shekinah(glory) .... this is the phrase i grew up with... jasonc you can put my head back to 1957 so fast... i can see, hear and smell the church :yes

 

[jasonc]

shekinah(glory) .... this is the phrase i grew up with... jasonc you can put my head back to 1957 so fast... i can see, hear and smell the church :yes

lol, a Holy flashback,

 

[reba]

ptsd

 

[jasonc]

ptsd

lol. seriously, one can have flashbacks and not have ptsd. been there. I avoid fireworks as those can and have caused one.

 

[Willie T]

I've had a lot of those.... and I didn't even attend church in the '60's.

 

[n2thelight]

The tribulation that has not happened is that of satan pretending to be Christ...It's all about deception!!!!

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

 

[n2thelight]

Can this have a dual fulfillment as applied to the Babylon of Rev 18:21? This verse seems to be parallel with Isa 13:19-20.

Most people don't understand dual prophecy...Just an example below

One of the keys to understanding Biblical prophecy is the fact that many prophecies are dual in nature. Many Biblical prophecies have both a short-term and long-term fulfillment (types and antitypes). The type is usually a relatively minor event in history. The antitype symbolizes a major, often eschatological (eschatology is a branch of Christian and Jewish theology concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humankind) event that will occur later.

One of the best examples of dual fulfillment in prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Events such as the siege of Jerusalem, Antiochus Epiphanes’ sacrifice of a pig on the altar (the Abomination of Desolation) and the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Flavius are seen as only partial fulfillments of the Olivet Prophecy (which is also predicted in the Book of Daniel). We can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Yeshua Ha’Mashiach (Jesus Christ). Yeshua was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes in which he pronounced himself to be God and defiled the Holy Temple (which when corrected by the Maccabean Revolt resulting in the celebration known as Hanukkah) would occur again during the time of the final Antichrist. Yeshua actually prophesied two events in the Olivet Prophecy. Jerusalem’s destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype.

Below is another example

Luke 4:17 "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,"



The book of Esaias is the book of Isaiah. They brough Jesus the scroll and Jesus opened it up and started to read.


Luke 4:18
" "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"




Luke 4:19
"To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."



First notice that at the end of verse 19 there is a period, yet in Isaiah there is no period, but it continues on into the day of vengeance.This then is what is known as the "gap theory" to many, and it comes out of Isaiah 61:1, 2. Each of these items that is spoken of here deals with the salvation that Jesus brought in His first advent, living His live and preaching the gospel. Then when Jesus gets so far in the reading, He shuts the scroll and sits down. Lets review those verses.


Isaiah 61:1
"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek [humble]; He hath send Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;"


Isaiah 61:2

"To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that morn;"
The place where Jesus stopped was fulfilled at the time when Jesus read this Scripture. "The day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that morn;" will not happen until Jesus returns at the seventh trump.


Luke 4:20
"And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him."




Luke 4:21
"And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Isaiah 61:3 "To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified."

From the last half of verse two and including this verse will not happen until Jesus returns at the seventh trump. When Jesus return He will give vengeance to those that have did evil to His own, and He will comfort to all those that do mourn. This is the place in God's word where it documents two advents of our Lord to this earth. The first is when Jesus came as Savior to mankind. He did that when He went to the cross. While the second advent is this day of vengeance when Jesus will come with a rod of iron to make all things right. It will be the payday for all the evil and wickedness that has been done in this time of flesh man. No Jesus won't be riding in Jerusalem on the back of donkey, but on a heavenly white horse.

 

[n2thelight]

Do any of you think that the Tribulation or "Day of the Lord" Isaiah 13:6-9;Matthew 24:21 was in the past and has already happened or do you think it is still in the future?

Tribulation and Day of Lord are different,Day of the Lord happens after the trib......At the Day of the Lord,we shall all be changed so being that we are still in the flesh,that Day has not happened...........

 

[jocor]

jocor
Mat 24:31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
G1996- from G1909 and G4863
G4863 - synagō -
Deu 30:4 `If thine outcast is in the extremity of the heavens, thence doth Jehovah thy God gather thee, and thence He doth take thee;

When Jesus spoke these words in Matt. He was speaking to people who had known Torah all their lives. They had heard the Torah read every Shabbat and they would have recognized this type of language and understood that He was not speaking about the literal heavens of the sky and beyond.

I agree. Did I write something that led you to believe I thought it meant the literal heavens? I thought I said it meant from all over the Earth.

 

[Deborah13]

I agree. Did I write something that led you to believe I thought it meant the literal heavens? I thought I said it meant from all over the Earth.

Huh.....I can't remember now why I pointed this out to you. That was Sunday! lol
I'm glad we agree though.

 

[Deborah13]

Most people don't understand dual prophecy...Just an example below

One of the keys to understanding Biblical prophecy is the fact that many prophecies are dual in nature. Many Biblical prophecies have both a short-term and long-term fulfillment (types and antitypes). The type is usually a relatively minor event in history. The antitype symbolizes a major, often eschatological (eschatology is a branch of Christian and Jewish theology concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humankind) event that will occur later.

One of the best examples of dual fulfillment in prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Events such as the siege of Jerusalem, Antiochus Epiphanes’ sacrifice of a pig on the altar (the Abomination of Desolation) and the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Flavius are seen as only partial fulfillments of the Olivet Prophecy (which is also predicted in the Book of Daniel). We can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Yeshua Ha’Mashiach (Jesus Christ). Yeshua was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes in which he pronounced himself to be God and defiled the Holy Temple (which when corrected by the Maccabean Revolt resulting in the celebration known as Hanukkah) would occur again during the time of the final Antichrist. Yeshua actually prophesied two events in the Olivet Prophecy. Jerusalem’s destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype.

Below is another example

Luke 4:17 "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,"



The book of Esaias is the book of Isaiah. They brough Jesus the scroll and Jesus opened it up and started to read.


Luke 4:18
" "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"




Luke 4:19
"To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."



First notice that at the end of verse 19 there is a period, yet in Isaiah there is no period, but it continues on into the day of vengeance.This then is what is known as the "gap theory" to many, and it comes out of Isaiah 61:1, 2. Each of these items that is spoken of here deals with the salvation that Jesus brought in His first advent, living His live and preaching the gospel. Then when Jesus gets so far in the reading, He shuts the scroll and sits down. Lets review those verses.


Isaiah 61:1
"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek [humble]; He hath send Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;"


Isaiah 61:2

"To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that morn;"
The place where Jesus stopped was fulfilled at the time when Jesus read this Scripture. "The day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that morn;" will not happen until Jesus returns at the seventh trump.


Luke 4:20
"And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him."




Luke 4:21
"And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Isaiah 61:3 "To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified."

From the last half of verse two and including this verse will not happen until Jesus returns at the seventh trump. When Jesus return He will give vengeance to those that have did evil to His own, and He will comfort to all those that do mourn. This is the place in God's word where it documents two advents of our Lord to this earth. The first is when Jesus came as Savior to mankind. He did that when He went to the cross. While the second advent is this day of vengeance when Jesus will come with a rod of iron to make all things right. It will be the payday for all the evil and wickedness that has been done in this time of flesh man. No Jesus won't be riding in Jerusalem on the back of donkey, but on a heavenly white horse.

Why do you think that because Jesus stopped where He did that the rest has not happened yet?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, Because Jehovah did anoint me To proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives liberty, And to bound ones an opening of bands.
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah,......
What did He actually say......
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them--`To-day hath this writing been fulfilled in your ears;'

So the portion that He had read in Isaiah had been fulfilled THAT DAY. He preached those things to them THAT DAY.
That in no way changes the fact of what He told His disciples ANOTHER DAY. Nor does it mean there is a 'gap' of 2,000 yrs. One has to add their own view to what the scripture actually says.

Tribulation and Day of Lord are different,Day of the Lord happens after the trib......At the Day of the Lord,we shall all be changed so being that we are still in the flesh,that Day has not happened...........

Please give me the scripture that says that the Day of the Lord is the day we shall be changed.
You may be correct but I just don't remember where it says that. Thanks

.

 

[n2thelight]

Why do you think that because Jesus stopped where He did that the rest has not happened yet?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, Because Jehovah did anoint me To proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives liberty, And to bound ones an opening of bands.
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah,......
What did He actually say......
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them--`To-day hath this writing been fulfilled in your ears;'

So the portion that He had read in Isaiah had been fulfilled THAT DAY. He preached those things to them THAT DAY.
That in no way changes the fact of what He told His disciples ANOTHER DAY. Nor does it mean there is a 'gap' of 2,000 yrs. One has to add their own view to what the scripture actually says.


Please give me the scripture that says that the Day of the Lord is the day we shall be changed.
You may be correct but I just don't remember where it says that. Thanks

.

Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"

His vengence has not happened yet

That day of vengeance falls on the day that Jesus Christ shall return to this earth and set up His Millennium Kingdom.

Luke 4:18 ""The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

This has...

He hath anointed me", the word "Christ" means the "Anointed One". The poor are the poor in spirit, those hungering for the gospel of Christ. Jesus Christ will preach deliverance to the captive immediately after the crucifixion and resurrection

In His first advent, this would be the only part of Isaiah's prophecy that would be fulfilled. So these verses have what is termed as the gap theory, because there is a gap between the "acceptable year of the Lord", and "The day of vengeance of our God."

Isaiah gives us the prophecy of the two comings of Christ, while Luke 4:18-21 gives us the documentation of that prophecy being fulfilled.


I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The below is the Day of the Lord,the 7th trump is the last one

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

[Sinthesis]

Why do you think that because Jesus stopped where He did that the rest has not happened yet?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, Because Jehovah did anoint me To proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives liberty, And to bound ones an opening of bands.
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah,......
What did He actually say......
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them--`To-day hath this writing been fulfilled in your ears;'

So the portion that He had read in Isaiah had been fulfilled THAT DAY. He preached those things to them THAT DAY.
That in no way changes the fact of what He told His disciples ANOTHER DAY. Nor does it mean there is a 'gap' of 2,000 yrs. One has to add their own view to what the scripture actually says.


Please give me the scripture that says that the Day of the Lord is the day we shall be changed.
You may be correct but I just don't remember where it says that. Thanks

.

You are correct in pointing out that just because Jesus' ministry was only concerned with fulfilling Isa 61:1 and the first part of Isa 61:2, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest isn't being/has been fulfilled. After all, Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, yet today gentiles make up the majority of His followers.

I read the rest of Isa 61 and see the tribulation of the terrible apocalypse of Judaism at the hands of Rome also causing mourning among those who knew Jesus as their Messiah, but nevertheless being comforted by the ascendency of Christianity.

Lamentations is an entire book devoted to mourning the first destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon, but we know through Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc that the destruction was warranted. The same idea applies here. Apostate Jerusalem deserved destruction at the hands of Rome, but that doesn't make it any less sad.

 

[Deborah13]

You are correct in pointing out that just because Jesus' ministry was only concerned with fulfilling Isa 61:1 and the first part of Isa 61:2, it doesn't necessarily mean the rest isn't being/has been fulfilled. After all, Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, yet today gentiles make up the majority of His followers.

I read the rest of Isa 61 and see the tribulation of the terrible apocalypse of Judaism at the hands of Rome also causing mourning among those who knew Jesus as their Messiah, but nevertheless being comforted by the ascendency of Christianity.

Lamentations is an entire book devoted to mourning the first destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon, but we know through Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc that the destruction was warranted. The same idea applies here. Apostate Jerusalem deserved destruction at the hands of Rome, but that doesn't make it any less sad.

Jesus was sad about it.
Luk 19:41 And when he came nigh, having seen the city, he wept over it,
Luk 19:42 saying--`If thou didst know, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things for thy peace; but now they were hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 `Because days shall come upon thee, and thine enemies shall cast around thee a rampart, and compass thee round, and press thee on every side,
Luk 19:44 and lay thee low, and thy children within thee, and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone, because thou didst not know the time of thy inspection.'

I don't think He was weeping over a city that was some 2,000 yrs. out in the future. I believe He was weeping over a city where He had brought them, "the things for thy peace". The place where He had said...
Mat 23:37 `Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
Mat 23:38 Lo, left desolate to you is your house;

I asked myself, if Jerusalem today is killing prophets and stoning those sent to them? Even the Orthodox Jews in Israel as much as they dislike the Messianic Jews are not doing this today. In fact, do the Jews even have any prophets today to kill?