Tithing - The Truth Please

[BradtheImpaler]

Christ's Word does not dis/agree with a lot of this post of yours, yet, because the one who held the money bag (then ended up hanging himself) for Christ's new 'nucleus fold' was a tare, is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.

Are you implying that "the sheep of another fold" (John.10:16) corresponds to, and validates the existence of denominations, which is the form of the organized church?

 

[John the Baptist]

Christ's Word does not dis/agree with a lot of this post of yours, yet, because the one who held the money bag (then ended up hanging himself) for Christ's new 'nucleus fold' was a tare, is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.

Are you implying that "the sheep of another fold" (John.10:16) corresponds to, and validates the existence of denominations, which is the form of the organized church?

***
I guess the short way for the answer to that is, yes & no, at least to 'the' form part. (surely from Cain on we see the devil with a false religion or fold) I need more intake, unless you are 'yoked' to these other guys? if so, just forget it, ok?

But yes, Revelation 18:4 surely has Christ's 'people' yoked inside of this 'her' with an eternal life or death decision to make when known. And Revelation 17:1-5 has seperate organized folds or daughters inside their ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH church's!

One even is found to claim to be 'the' fold, as in Revelation 3:9. But she is none of those of Babylon.

---John

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Christ's Word does not dis/agree with a lot of this post of yours, yet, because the one who held the money bag (then ended up hanging himself) for Christ's new 'nucleus fold' was a tare, is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.

Are you implying that "the sheep of another fold" (John.10:16) corresponds to, and validates the existence of denominations, which is the form of the organized church?

***
I guess the short way for the answer to that is, yes & no, at least to 'the' form part. (surely from Cain on we see the devil with a false religion or fold) I need more intake, unless you are 'yoked' to these other guys? if so, just forget it, ok?

But yes, Revelation 18:4 surely has Christ's 'people' yoked inside of this 'her' with an eternal life or death decision to make when known. And Revelation 17:1-5 has seperate organized folds or daughters inside their ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH church's!

One even is found to claim to be 'the' fold, as in Revelation 3:9. But she is none of those of Babylon.

---John

I can't follow your answer. What do you prepose is meant by "sheep of another fold" and how does this relate to "Christ's church organization"?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Christ's Word does not dis/agree with a lot of this post of yours, yet, because the one who held the money bag (then ended up hanging himself) for Christ's new 'nucleus fold' was a tare, is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.

Are you implying that "the sheep of another fold" (John.10:16) corresponds to, and validates the existence of denominations, which is the form of the organized church?

***
I guess the short way for the answer to that is, yes & no, at least to 'the' form part. (surely from Cain on we see the devil with a false religion or fold) I need more intake, unless you are 'yoked' to these other guys? if so, just forget it, ok?

But yes, Revelation 18:4 surely has Christ's 'people' yoked inside of this 'her' with an eternal life or death decision to make when known. And Revelation 17:1-5 has seperate organized folds or daughters inside their ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH church's!

One even is found to claim to be 'the' fold, as in Revelation 3:9. But she is none of those of Babylon.

---John

I can't follow your answer. What do you prepose is meant by "sheep of another fold" and how does this relate to "Christ's church organization"?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Christ's Word does not dis/agree with a lot of this post of yours, yet, because the one who held the money bag (then ended up hanging himself) for Christ's new 'nucleus fold' was a tare, is not any reason for tossing out Christ's organized church organization. John 10:16, compare Ephesians 4:5.

Are you implying that "the sheep of another fold" (John.10:16) corresponds to, and validates the existence of denominations, which is the form of the organized church?

***
I guess the short way for the answer to that is, yes & no, at least to 'the' form part. (surely from Cain on we see the devil with a false religion or fold) I need more intake, unless you are 'yoked' to these other guys? if so, just forget it, ok?

But yes, Revelation 18:4 surely has Christ's 'people' yoked inside of this 'her' with an eternal life or death decision to make when known. And Revelation 17:1-5 has seperate organized folds or daughters inside their ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH church's!

One even is found to claim to be 'the' fold, as in Revelation 3:9. But she is none of those of Babylon.

---John

I can't follow your answer. What do you prepose is meant by "sheep of another fold" and how does this relate to "Christ's church organization"?

 

[John the Baptist]

can't follow your answer. What do you prepose is meant by "sheep of another fold" and how does this relate to "Christ's church organization"?
_________________

John here: (Pastor N.B.) See if this post from another site helps some?

*******
Pastor N.B, if I understand you correctly, you believe currently God is calling out a people from all denominations of mainstream Christianity as well as from the unbelieving, and these ones who come out will form this one true denomination, and only they will be saved.
*******
P/N/B/ here:
Let me just add that all of these ones will gladly follow the Bible requirements of Everlasting Gospel order. Rom. 8:14. Christ will have no loose cannon's in heaven again with no Gospel order! That is where it all started in the first place! Otherwise the character would not be mature. Also 1 Peter 4:17 finds Adventism 'shaken' first. (judged) And in Christ's day it was the Denomination [as a whole] that were shaken out from the Truth in Christ. See 2 Thess. 2:1-3. And 'the man of sin'? Who replaces a desolate denomination? Again, Gen. 4:7 & Rev. 3:9.
***

Their doctrine will be the same as that of 7th Day Adventism, and these people in this one true denomination will obey the commandments of God perfectly and have perfected character. Because of their perfected character and pure 7th Day Adventist doctrine, God will allow them and only them into eternal life.

******
P/N/B/ here:
I think that you see this correct? But for others sake let me say this, all saved will be saved only one way! Acts 4:12. And in total submission! Acts 5:32 .The righteousness of Christ is the only way to be saved. Rom. 8:1. The power is there, yet it requires a working covenant relationship! Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9. And yes, the only ones saved will be the ones who have been 'proven' safe to save. Na. 1:9 (but this has always been true! A person living in accordance to the light that they had been given)

****
You appear to consider 7th Day Adventism to have departed from the Lord as Israel in the old testament did, so that though you believe their doctrine to be correct, they are not the called out, the remnant, the elect, whatever you wish to call them.

****
Me again:
There are numerous verses of prophecy to tell us this Truth. The Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 verses are the most simple to understand in documented 'inspiration' perhaps? And in Isa. 5 it tells the exact history past & that which is again to be in the future. (even as to the reason of why, in verse 3) Then, along with the two/fold Eze. 9 slaughter of 70AD, & the Rev. 3's Naked/ness of Christ's Righteousness ones, we see that these too, will be [spewed out] as sickening. What Born Again person who [loves Christ] could stay in any yoked membership as a Rev. 18:4 Partaker of openly documented known sin??

Let me clarify! Rev. 18:4 is speaking of Babylon. (and her harlot daughters. see Rev. 17:5) And the verse is not talking of Virgin Israel as Babylon! Yet, if you take note about known sin & being Partakers, the WARNING still is Truth! And notice what your take would be as seen in Israel of old, in the Matt. 10:15'th verse?
Christ states:
"Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of [Sodom and Gomorrah] in the day of judgement, than for that city." (see verses 5-6 of this chapter for whom Christ was talking about!)

So, yes, surely Babylon was no worse that Sodom and Gomorrah!! But the most guilty are not either of these two! *See Luke 12:47-48.

***
Am I understanding this right?
***
My conclusion:
When one thinks of the Midnight Cry in Matt. 25 & the Shaking of 2 Thess. 2, another good verse (of many) is seen in Micah 2:13.
The descriptive Word is that of 'The Breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it, and their King shall pass before them, and the Lord on the head of them." (check Zeph. 3:15!) Again, Matt. 23:38 & Matt. 25.

And yes, maybe we see an understanding of what is being said? Let me just add another verse seeing that you seem to be quick to understand a persons posting. In Amos 7:7-8 Amos sees a 'Plumbline' for Virgin Israel. Judgement! And in chapter 5:1-*2 ibid.. we see.. "Hear ye the Word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel. [THE VIRGIN OF ISRAEL IS FALLEN.]" Still yet, 1 Peter 4:17 finds this again in the repeat, but do not get the Midnight Cry of Matt. 25 confused with the LOUD CRY of Rev. 14:9. These that give this cry are the ones whom you describe. And this loud Cry is to the professed Christian World. It is 70 AD's counter part! 666

 

[BeforeThereWas]

PS: You sound like a jesuit to me in your posting. Such as attacking the person of the message, rather than the Scriptural posting. Whatever? But just for one thought along those lines, you do know that you have a spell check on the forum, do you not? Perhaps before you go attacking another, you might see if you know anything about spelling?? There must be at least 'one' misspelled word in that post huh? :

Naw: We have corresponded long enough! Titus 3:9-11

We haven't had any legitimate correspondence. Everything of intelligence has been one-sided from my direction to you, not the other way around. There was no messenger for me to attack. All I've seen is a little whelp who has nothing to say, but to criticize another's spelling.

I think that it's good that you give up, because you haven't done anything but hit the "Quote Bible Out Of Context" button you have on your screen, or does that come natural to you? :-D

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I have met only a handful of other "pastors" who don't see their position and function within organized religion as being the sole basis upon which they have acquired their authority within the Church. Remember, I'm drawing a distinctive line between the Church and "churches" (so-called). They are not the same thing. This underlying assumption that just because a man achieves a position of authority within organized religion doesn't mean that he is a leader within the Church, and of biblical calibre. John seems to fancy the idea that because he is a "pastor" within organized religion, that he is therefore qualified to function as an authority outside of his man-made, religious domain.

You see, John, I too am a "pastor", I just don't go around clamoring about it with self-righteous hubbub that takes no real stance upon biblical truth. The gatherings I have "pastored" are now spiritually mature enough to "function" on their own without me. In other words, I do just like Paul of Tarsus. He ministered Christ and spiritual maturity to those people, and he left them. The groups I have helped build, I have left with a handful of elders (plural) to help those people with any problems that may crop up, and those elders also disciple new converts and others who have not yet achieved spiritual maturity. I don't stand before them week after week under the guise of the assumed "perpetual sheepdom" mentality. I do what ALL "pastors" should be doing, which to put myself out of a job. When I have done my job, that means that the people to whom I have ministered are now mature in their faith and are able to mutually edify one another, minister to one another, and support one another in ways that no single man could possibly hope to succeed, and was never meant to succeed. If you think you can possibly meet all those people's needs, you're fooling only yourself.

BTW

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I don't stand before them week after week under the guise of the assumed "perpetual sheepdom" mentality. I do what ALL "pastors" should be doing, which to put myself out of a job. When I have done my job, that means that the people to whom I have ministered are now mature in their faith and are able to mutually edify one another, minister to one another, and support one another in ways that no single man could possibly hope to succeed, and was never meant to succeed

People, do yourselves a favor and "sit at the feet" of BTW awhile. He is the rarest of all creatures - a man who actually understands what the Church is supposed to be and what it is not supposed to be. Roles of leadership within the church were never meant to be "career choices". The role of the modern day pastor is that of a "hireling" (Jn.10:13) who will flee when the money stops coming in or should persecution arise. Men who are so lacking in faith that they impose the tithe upon their flocks in an attempt to guarantee themselves an income above that which they fear they would only receive should they not preach the tithe.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Brad, I just thank the Lord for His Truth. I began serving with one prayer, that the Lord would show me His Truth, and replace my understanding of man's truth with His Most High Truth. He showed me how I was reading His written word with too many conventional, religious blinders.

John said something about the Seventh-day Adventists. That reminded me of a phone call I had received years ago from a dear lady when I was working at a radio station as the weekend personality. She was 70 then, and worked in one of the local Adventist's organization office. She asked me if I was getting paid for that day's work (since it was Saturday), and I told her yes, that I was on the payroll. She then asked, "How could you do that; work on the Sabbath and get paid?" Well, I tried to explain that I didn't need the money, and had been donating it to the local Salvation Army, since I knew that everything given to them is used to meet needs.

Needless to say, she wasn't satisfied, and persisted in the idea that I was sinning, because I was breaking the ten commandments. Something ocurred to me while I patiently listened to her voice becoming more shrill with outrage as each passing moment progressed into another.

Finally, I stopped her with my question: "Do you people pay your pastor"?

"Why of course," she responded, "that's scriptural."

"Is preaching on Saturday part of his duties your congregation expects of him as your pastor?"

"Absolutely," she replied.

So, I hit her with what was nagging at the back of my mind, "Tell me, if he stopped preaching on Saturday, would your church fire him and hire someone else?"

"Of course we would! It would be unthinkable for him to stop preaching on Saturday and expect us to... Wait a minute! That's ridiculous! I see where you're going with this. That makes no sense. What are you trying to pull-"

"Excuse me, but you already said that of all the duties he is assigned, that failure to perform this one duty, among all the others he shoulders, would certainly bring down upon him being fired and replaced. You already acknowledged that, correct?"

"Why yes, but that's a ridiculous question. You tricked me," she whined.

"No. I asked a simple question that you initially answered honestly from your understanding of the priorities of his duties for which he was hired. He's being paid to preach to your congregation each Saturday, and you already acknowledged that."

"No. I didn't. He performs many, many other duties for which he is paid, but not that one. He receives nothing for preaching on Saturday," she quipped.

"Then why doesn't someone else preach to you all on Saturdays if he wasn't hired to do that? After all, if he isn't being paid to preach on Saturday, then anyone else in your congregation could do it, right, like an elder?"

"Because we hired him as our-. Oh, no you don't. There you go again, trying to trick me! You're an evil man, and you call yourself a 'christian'!"

"Lady, I never said anything about what I am. You assumed that in spite of anything I said. I love the Lord, and I seek to obey Him at all costs, but I don't go around trying to impress people with a label. Also, you already admitted that your pastor would no longer receive a paycheck if he stopped preaching on Saturdays. You answered honestly, and then tried to back out of the implications that you know is true."

It was at that point that she didn't have time to talk, having too much to do in the office before the service, so she had to hang up and go. There she was, working in the office on Saturday, right before the service, serving a "pastor" who would no longer receive a paycheck if he refused to preach on Saturday, telling me what a scoundrel I was for working that day at a Christian radio station, merely ministering and talking to people, and getting paid for it, doing pretty much the same thing her "pastor" does on that same day of the week.

So it comes as no surprise to me that people like John (bless his heart) are stuck in a dimension of thought and belief where they must continue to fool themselves into thinking that they are better than everyone else around them, including you and me.

Here is a key verse that John seems to have forgotten, and it comes from Phil. 2:3, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."

John may very well be right about some of what he said. I'm not perfect, but I know the One who is perfect. I wrongfully pounced on you, John, and I apologize. If the Lord has some correction of my thinking and ways to perform, then I certainly welcome it that I may become closer to Him, and further from myself. I sometimes have a nasty habit of holding up mirrors so others can see their own ugliness. The problem with this is that sometimes I am that mirror reflecting the ugliness in others rather than it being an object not so closely tied to who and what I am.

God bless one and all.

BTW

 

[supernac]

Heres a good site

http://bible-truths.com/tithing.html

Its interesting when you compare the early church (the first 300 years) against modern day churches. The early church did more for Jesus
than any church sense then, they did it without the NT to guide them
for the most part, they did it without buildings or temples. The money they had went to help the poor and sick (christian or not). Several Roman leaders wrote about how helpful the christians were, and how hard it would be to kill them when they were so helpful.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Very true. The early Church had many advantages in the midst of the freedom they enjoyed. It was when Constantine, in about 323 A.D. declared "Christianity" to be the state religion, which ended the persecution, that things really started going down hill. Until that time, they had no common real estate, buildings pagan holidays to celebrate, or any of the other trappings that today divert attention away from from the central focus of the gathering of believers.

BTW

 

[supernac]

BTW

Where is your congergation located at? I'd like to attend!!!!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

BTW

Where is your congergation located at? I'd like to attend!!!!

Well, they've been on their own since May because I moved. It was time to move on (put myself out of a job). I haven't gotten started in this new area as of yet. The people here are sure different. The groups I left behind are located in the Houston, Texas area. I left them to sink or swim (what timing of terminology, huh?). Now some of them are here in Wichita to get away from the hurricane. Don't worry. I'm not a Gene Edwards fan. He and I disagree on a number of things. He's more of a supremist. I'm nothing of the kind. He thinks that only he and a handful of guys that he personally trained are true church planters. I'm one because of the Lord's calling, not because some old man, who thinks more highly of himself than he should, says that I am.

It may be a while before they all get back to their homes, depending on how severe this hurricane turns out to be.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I realize there will never be total agreement, because there will always be those who defend institutionalisms robbery of the poor by utilizing the primary portion of believer's giving for its own use. This will continue til the return of Christ to put an end to the robbery of the Most High.

May that day come soon.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

What I find to be most fascinating about the pro-required-tithing argument is the emotional nature of the supporting arguments rather than there being a biblical foundation. There are many testimonies, most of which are easily explained in natural terms, but it is still amazing that professing believers can so easily testify that the Lord blessed them by their doing what is contrary to scripture. That simply doesn't line up with the Bible. That speaks of God allegedly having a contrary nature, which He does not. The pseudo spiritual application of scripture, which has been demonstrated in this thread, is as meaningless as saying that the Lord directs His people to do that which is contrary to His own commands and examples. Far too many people are creating a god of their own making rather than seeking and following the God described within the pages of the Bible. Such false gods are incapable of saving anyone. Disobedience to the word of God is tantamount to following after false gods. This is why I always encourage folks to read the word of God for what it says, and pray that the Holy Spirit guide them in all their ways and understanding, rather than to believe everything one hears from those men who stand behind pulpits. Such men are fallible, therefore prone to error, which is all the more reason to assume proper responsibility for what one chooses to believe by studying diligently the word of God.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I once knew a pastor years ago who shocked his people into a semblance of reality. One Sunday morning, he decided to not show up. He had been teaching about the need for them to learn to function on their own without him. His topics, of course, were spiritual maturity and interdependence upon one another. So, he sat in his car down the street to watch what would happen. Well, those people searched around the building, called his home, looked in his office, searched the basement, no pastor. So they sat in their pews for a while, and decided to dismiss.

When exiting the building, they were met with his smiling face, and he asked them one question: "What did you do without me to lead you?" It was quite an awakening. They were giving up rather than to be a body, a family, to search out if there were any needs for provision and prayer, emotional support, mutual edification, anything that could be a need in each other's lives. They failed miserably because they gave up and were about to leave, and they learned a powerful lesson from that experience. The elders also failed, because rather than guide everyone through the learning curve of being functional, they sat on their thumbs and watched the people mill about aimlessly. TRUE elders would never have allowed such stumbling about. Needless to say, those "elders" showed just how illegitimate they really were as biblical elders.

It's too bad that more groups don't learn this lesson, because how much longer will groups be able to gather so openly in an increasingly hostile world? It needs to be understood now and the lessons need to be learned now, because change comes faster these days with the presence of technology and greed running at a feverish pitch.

Get ready, because the day is coming, perhaps in our lifetimes, when we will have to function without those men trained by our man-made institutions of allegedly "higher learning". Get ready to move forward with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

You men need to grow a spine if you don't have one, and be ready to stand up in crisis and be the corporate leaders whose hearts are reliant ONLY upon Christ as the Head, and be ready to shepherd as 1 Peter 5 says. Don't wait for the women to have to stand up in your place because you prefer to be nothing more than fellow bleating sheep, bemoaning the loss of the only guy who had that spine in his body.

BTW

 

[Heidi]

If we know how much we give, then how can we give with the right hand without the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing? :-?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

If we know how much we give, then how can we give with the right hand without the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing? :-?

That's a good question. What about those institutions that track how much each member is giving, so that they know who will be allowed to vote, and who will not? Same paradox, for someone else knows how much you give, and reward you accordingly.

Institutionalism is guilty of perpetrating some of the kookiest, most nonsensical, anti-biblical, ungodly nonsense known to man. Much of organized religion serves as a prime example of hypocrisy in all its glory and grandeur. The Church, on the other hand, has no unsaved members within its ranks, has no need for money, exists in a realm completely untouchable by the failings of mankind and his strivings, and is unblemished by the rudiments of this fallen world.

The Church is pure, churches are not.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Some folks tithe faithfully to organizations they trust will meet needs with every bit of their primary giving, and they do so cheerfully, and that's fantastic. Others give knowing scripture does not demand that they tithe today, especially to organized religion. Still others perpetrate a Homer Simpson style of argumentation, which is mostly emotional argumentation that we are all commanded by God's word to tithe from the gross, others say from the net, but to tithe nonetheless, and to give it to religious institutions, most of which abuse the primary portion of believer's giving by utilizing some to most of it for their own expenditures and expansion.

Opposing views cannot all be right, and the debate goes on. If one were to just sit back and put aside all their biases about tithing, and read the word of God for what is says, taking all things into consideration, things like context and timeframe, such as when the tithe was addressed (before or after the establishment of the New Covenant), to whom it was addressed, the purpose the tithe and its reference served, who was authorized to collect tithes, who was authorized to partake of the tithe, what happened to those authorized to collect the tithe, taking all these and other things into consideration, perhaps there might be more continuity between all the views.

Homer Simpson believes whatever he hears from others he admires so long as it appeals to his emotional state and frame of mind, regardless of whether what he hears aligns itself with solid, coherent logic, reason, context, timeframe, such as what might be written about it in an external authority to himself that is not under his personal control, and inspired by God, Who also is not under Homer's personal control.

If opposing views don't line up with one another, then there is an answer for which we don't have to await the return of Christ to be resolved. The answers lie within the framework of scripture, and those answers do not need anyone to defend them, unless some people's application is inconsistent with the rules of proper, legitimate interpretation. Many people think they can subjectively ignore those elements of the text that happen to render their interpretation null and void. That has a name, which happens to be called dishonesty. Those who practice this level of interpretational skill are pretty much outside the realm of legitimate argumentation, and are authorities only unto themselves, and therefore have nothing meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

This is what is called "cutting to the chase." There are already more than enough straw men and red herrings floating around in the cesspools of false argumentation, false interpretation, so, leaving those behind where they belong, productive discussion can indeed spring forth from the soil of scriptural fertility.

Emotional argumentation is perhaps one of the most difficult of styles to dispatch, for it causes the perpetrator to shut out all else that might bring continuity and balance to their arguments. Any time an individual operates from that style, they shut out what might be a far greater enrichment to their understanding than anything they have ever known. Alas, emotionalism is itself irrational and incoherent in the arena of exploration to find answers to difficult questions. It tends to be more reactionary than thoughtful, which pretty much characterizes the inability of its adherents to see beyond the mists and fogs of emotionalism with which they shroud themselves.

May productive discussion spring forth from a balanced platform of a profound love for truth, no matter how painful it may prove to be to our pride.

BTW