TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[st_worm2]

Total Depravity​

by Barry Cooper

Sin is not a virus lurking outside of us, but a poison that defiles our hearts from within. Today, Barry Cooper helps us to delve into the depths of our sin (click on the link below to read or listen to the 5 min 49 sec article from Ligonier Ministries).

Total Depravity

Sin is not a virus lurking outside of us, but a poison that defiles our hearts from within. Today, Barry Cooper helps us to delve into the depths of our sin.

www.ligonier.org

 

[donadams]

Are there any exceptions?

Thks

 

[Beetow]

.
Webster's defines depravity as the quality or state of being corrupt, evil, or
perverted.

A rough-hewn definition of "pervert" as a verb pertains to steering someone, or
something, in the wrong direction.

In the beginning; man was created in the image and likeness of God. So then,
man's original moral compass aligned itself perfectly with divine principles. But then
came the forbidden fruit incident whereby his moral compass lost its aim, i.e. it
went off course and became that of a tin God.

● Gen 3:22 . .Then the Lord God said: Behold, the man has become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.

So then, man's intuitive sense of good and evil can no longer be trusted to steer
himself in the right direction, i.e. man's conscience is defective and, in point of fact,
is just as much in need of atonement as his conduct.

Now the thing is: none of the sacrifices specified in the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy address
man's defective conscience; not even Yom Kippur. (Heb 9:9-10)
_

 

[donadams]

.
Webster's defines depravity as the quality or state of being corrupt, evil, or
perverted.

A rough-hewn definition of "pervert" as a verb pertains to steering someone, or
something, in the wrong direction.

In the beginning; man was created in the image and likeness of God. So then,
man's original moral compass aligned itself perfectly with divine principles. But then
came the forbidden fruit incident whereby his moral compass lost its aim, i.e. it
went off course and became that of a tin God.

● Gen 3:22 . .Then the Lord God said: Behold, the man has become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.

So then, man's intuitive sense of good and evil can no longer be trusted to steer
himself in the right direction, i.e. man's conscience is defective and, in point of fact,
is just as much in need of atonement as his conduct.

Now the thing is: none of the sacrifices specified in the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy address
man's defective conscience; not even Yom Kippur. (Heb 9:9-10)
_

To get the good fruit (Jesus Christ) we need a good tree (Mary) immaculate!

Biblical Principle

A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit!
A bad tree (sinner) cannot bear good fruit! (Savior / salvation)

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

A Good tree cannot bear bad fruit!
A biblical principle approved by Jesus even though He knew it would be used to defend His sinless mother!


Cannot give enough glory to Mary!

Lk 2:32 a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Jesus is the fruit of Mary!
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, Mary is the mother of the light of the world and if the son receives glory Mary receives glory, if the sin is holy Mary is holy!

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit!
A sinner cannot obtain our salvation!
Or bring forth a savior!

If Jesus is the fruit of Mary and the glory of Israel then so is Mary!

Mary brought forth our salvation!

A good tree must bear good fruit!

 

[electedbyHim]

To get the good fruit (Jesus Christ) we need a good tree (Mary) immaculate!

Biblical Principle

A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit!
A bad tree (sinner) cannot bear good fruit! (Savior / salvation)

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

A Good tree cannot bear bad fruit!
A biblical principle approved by Jesus even though He knew it would be used to defend His sinless mother!


Cannot give enough glory to Mary!

Lk 2:32 a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Jesus is the fruit of Mary!
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, Mary is the mother of the light of the world and if the son receives glory Mary receives glory, if the sin is holy Mary is holy!

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit!
A sinner cannot obtain our salvation!
Or bring forth a savior!

If Jesus is the fruit of Mary and the glory of Israel then so is Mary!

Mary brought forth our salvation!

A good tree must bear good fruit!

This is what Paul calls another gospel.

Galatians 1:7 which is really not another, only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to the gospel we have proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!

 

[Beetow]

.
In the past, I was certain that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit contained
something in it that altered the first couple's moral perception. But Eve was the
first to taste it and when she did,, nothing happened. She went right on in the
buff as usual and didn't become sensitive about her appearance till Adam tasted it.

It's commonly believed the so-called fallen nature is inherited from one's biological
father. Oh? Then whence did Eve get it? She was constructed with material taken
from Adam's body but that was all over and done with before he tasted the
forbidden fruit; so it was too late for him to transmit the fallen nature to her via
heredity.

FAQ: If Eve's altered moral perception wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to inheriting
it from Adam; then from where? Did God do it?

REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) He has the
power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human body and the
human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph
2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment that
Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it takes effect.
Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both immediately set to work
cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to cover up their pelvic areas.

FAQ: Why wasn't the woman's moral perception altered when she tasted the
forbidden fruit?

REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come into the
world, they would do so by means of the solo actions of one person, just as life and
righteousness would come into the world by means of the solo actions of one
person. (Rom 5:12-21, 1Cor 15:21)
_

 

[donadams]

This is what Paul calls another gospel.

Galatians 1:7 which is really not another, only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to the gospel we have proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!

Why is in the Gospel?

Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

 

[JLB]

So far I have not seen the term Total Depravity used in scripture.

Are there people in the world who are totally depraved?
Yes absolutely.

However, these are depraved because they chose to live and act in a depraved way, therefore God gave them over to a reprobate mind.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting. Romans 1:18-28

 

[donadams]

So far I have not seen the term Total Depravity used in scripture.

Are there people in the world who are totally depraved?
Yes absolutely.

However, these are depraved because they chose to live and act in a depraved way, therefore God gave them over to a reprobate mind.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting. Romans 1:18-28

Agree, please read and comment on my thread “new covenant” in the Catholic forum thks

 

[Fastfredy0]

A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit!
A bad tree (sinner) cannot bear good fruit! (Savior / salvation)

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Agreed

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

A Good tree cannot bear bad fruit!

You contradicted yourself.
Premise 1: A bad tree cannot bear good fruit (we agree)
Premise 2: Mary is the 'fruit' of her parents, who in turn are the fruit of their parents, and on and on till eventually
you get to Adam and Eve who are notorious for being "BAD FRUIT"
Conclusion: Since a bad tree cannot bear good fruit and since Mary comes from "BAD FRUIT" then we concluded
Mary is "Bad Fruit" (she was conceived in sin)

So we still have a contradiction to solve. We have Jesus who is "good fruit" coming from Mary who is "bad fruit".
Solution:
Premise 1: A bad tree cannot bear good fruit (we agree)
Premise 2: Mary is a "bad fruit" (we do not agree)
Premise 3: Jesus is a "good fruit" (we agree)
Premise 4: Matthew 1:20 an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
Problem solved: Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit which is "good fruit" and satisfies Premise 1. Although Mary carried Jesus in her womb she could not conceive a "good fruit" for she was a "bad fruit" as shown above for her parents where "bad fruit" .... and News Flash... Mary was a virgin and women can't impregnate themselves and have "good or bad fruit".

 

[donadams]

Agreed


You contradicted yourself.
Premise 1: A bad tree cannot bear good fruit (we agree)
Premise 2: Mary is the 'fruit' of her parents, who in turn are the fruit of their parents, and on and on till eventually
you get to Adam and Eve who are notorious for being "BAD FRUIT"
Conclusion: Since a bad tree cannot bear good fruit and since Mary comes from "BAD FRUIT" then we concluded
Mary is "Bad Fruit" (she was conceived in sin)

So we still have a contradiction to solve. We have Jesus who is "good fruit" coming from Mary who is "bad fruit".
Solution:
Premise 1: A bad tree cannot bear good fruit (we agree)
Premise 2: Mary is a "bad fruit" (we do not agree)
Premise 3: Jesus is a "good fruit" (we agree)
Premise 4: Matthew 1:20 an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
Problem solved: Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit which is "good fruit" and satisfies Premise 1. Although Mary carried Jesus in her womb she could not conceive a "good fruit" for she was a "bad fruit" as shown above for her parents where "bad fruit" .... and News Flash... Mary was a virgin and women can't impregnate themselves and have "good or bad fruit".

No cos there is only one immaculate conception (Mary).

For a better understanding see my thread “the new covenant” in the Catholic forum

Thks

 

[Beetow]

So far I have not seen the term Total Depravity used in scripture.

But does scripture teach total depravity?

* A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump.

In other words; people need not be 100% demonic thru and thru to qualify as
depraved when all they really have to do is fail to measure up to God's sinless
perfection.

● Rom 3:23 . . All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

It only stands to reason that if Christ's scriptural death is for everyone's benefit, then
everyone is scripturally depraved; no exceptions.

● Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
There's a rather humorous scene in Dante's Inferno where these two guys who
knew each other in life are quarreling over who deserves Hell more than the other;
which is pretty silly when it's considered that both are condemned to the same level.

I rather suspect that quite a few folks sincerely believe God has made a big mistake
sending them down there. In their judicious estimation; others deserve it for sure,
but not themselves.

For example: it's my guess that most folks are far more tolerant of dishonesty
than they are of sexual immorality yet both the liar and the deviant are on track for
the very same fate. (Rev 21:8) In point of fact, I'd wager that more folks are in Hell
for dishonesty than those in Hell for the naughty stuff, e.g. adultery, fornication,
incest, and the lifestyles of gays & lesbians.
_

 

[Fastfredy0]

No cos there is only one immaculate conception (Mary).

First you say a bad fruit (person) cannot bear good fruit (produce a good person). Then I point old that Mary had to be a "bad fruit" because her parents where "bad fruit" and your explanation is a non-biblical, Roman Catholic concoction that Mary was born without sin and this is to be believed due to the non-biblical, Roman Catholic concoction that the Magisterium says their doctrine is infallible even though they've reversed some doctrine that was supposedly infallible which invalidates their claim of infallibility.
This is known as the "I have a bridge to sell you" con.

 

[donadams]

First you say a bad fruit (person) cannot bear good fruit (produce a good person). Then I point old that Mary had to be a "bad fruit" because her parents where "bad fruit" and your explanation is a non-biblical, Roman Catholic concoction that Mary was born without sin and this is to be believed due to the non-biblical, Roman Catholic concoction that the Magisterium says their doctrine is infallible even though they've reversed some doctrine that was supposedly infallible which invalidates their claim of infallibility.
This is known as the "I have a bridge to sell you" con.

Mary was conceived immaculate without original
Sin, first fruits of the new creation!

Thks

 

[Free]

Mary was conceived immaculate without original
Sin, first fruits of the new creation!

Thks

Then why did she sin?

 

[JLB]

Agree, please read and comment on my thread “new covenant” in the Catholic forum thks

I don’t need another persons opinion, or interpretation or commentary about a theology that was built around a term that doesn’t even exist in the Bible.

It’s time for God’s people to get back to what the first century Church was taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles, and therefore walked in as a lifestyle.

We have people right here on this Forum who can’t even agree that God loves the unsaved people of this world!!!

If we don’t believe God loves the world, then who is going out to the byways and the street to tell the lost the good news?

It’s utterly ridiculous.

 

[JLB]

Mary was conceived immaculate without original
Sin, first fruits of the new creation!

Thks

Surely you don’t believe that nonsense.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23

 

[JLB]

But does scripture teach total depravity?

* A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump.

In other words; people need not be 100% demonic thru and thru to qualify as
depraved when all they really have to do is fail to measure up to God's sinless
perfection.

● Rom 3:23 . . All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

It only stands to reason that if Christ's scriptural death is for everyone's benefit, then
everyone is scripturally depraved; no exceptions.

● Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
_

Thanks for sharing.

Since the term Totally Depraved is not found in scripture then we must rely on different peoples “definitions” to define and understand what that means… and there’s the rub.


Example -

In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity.

Here we see a distinct contradiction. From there must be an “explanation” of the difference even though total and utter are synonymous. This only leads to more and more opinion, and round and and round it goes… all from a phrase that is not found in scripture.

Why not just stick to what Jesus says and practice doing what He and His Apostles taught us.



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Mary was conceived immaculate without original

To help bolster their teaching that Mary was sinless, the Roman Catholic Church has invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (formally accepted as Catholic dogma in 1854). According to this false teaching, Mary was, from her very conception in her mother’s womb, “preserved free from all stain of original sin.” That is, Mary had no sinful nature. This doctrine is neither biblical nor necessary.
In Luke 1, Mary says, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (verse 47). If she were sinless, she would not have needed a “Savior.” Gotquestions.org


Catholicism denies the sufficiency of Christ. They add the mass to his word. They add their tradition to his headship. They add a pope to his unique role as sinless mediator. They add another sinless mediator named Mary to his high Priestly office. They add the confessional box.
1 John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin so why do we need purgatory.
Catholicism denies the sufficiency of Christ. To his infinite Merit they add the treasury of Merit.
To his purifying blood they had purgatory. Into his righteousness Catholics add their own filthy rags of righteousness. Mike Gendron

yada, yada