TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[electedbyHim]

I became interested in Christianity because it seemed to me that those with faith had courage.

That was God drawing you.

He also gave you the faith to believe the gospel, no?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

A sinner some who is separate from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


His sheep, who wander away from Him and become lost have returned to being separate from Him and are considered to be sinners.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Totally Depraved is a man made term used to prop up a man made doctrine.

No, it reflects faithfully Paul's teaching in Romans 1:18--3:20.

 

[LeviR]

Well, Romans 1:18--3:20 doesn't deny it. But it doesn't mean that humans are completely evil but that the good they do is pervasively self-centered.

A mortal man cannot stand in the presence of the one true God and see His face. That man would drop dead on the spot. His flesh of sin would be consumed by such great glory as the Father.

 

[LeviR]

That was God drawing you.

He also gave you the faith to believe the gospel, no?

I learned the gospel from the scripture. There’s only one true gospel and many not so true. So I really had to delve into it til I became convinced I knew it correctly.
Truth has a certain ring to it. Like the sound a genuine coin makes.

 

[JLB]

Take note that the above passage says "God so loved the world---". What it does not say is that "God so lived every person in the world." God gave Jesus to the world. And those who believe in him have everlasting life.

Who created the world?

Who owns the world?

Who governs the world and is sovereign over it?

Who is restoring the world? (Is 11;Rev 21)

Who brought evil (all sin) into the world?

How is the world being restored?

So John 3:16 cannot be used as a way of denying either total depravity or of God's election to salvation of those he chooses to save. If you want to do that, you must show that the "whoever believes" are doing so by choosing to believe, and that they have the ability and desire to do so. Good luck. And it needs to be done with thoughtful and accurate exegesis.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God so loved the world, simply means God loves the world; the unsaved people of the world.

We know they are unsaved because God sent His Son to die for their sins so that they would be saved.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17



God desires the people of the world to be saved.


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

 

[JLB]

So how do you put together sound doctrine?

How do you interpret Scripture?

And you cannot use the following Scripture to justify your thoughts.

John 14:26 “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Read the bible and do what it says.

 

[JLB]

No, it reflects faithfully Paul's teaching in Romans 1:18--3:20.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:18-32


So you believe God has given all mankind from Adam to present, over to a debased mind?

 

[LeviR]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God so loved the world, simply means God loves the world; the unsaved people of the world.

We know they are unsaved because God sent His Son to die for their sins so that they would be saved.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17



God desires the people of the world to be saved.


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

It would only seem reasonable that if God so loved the world to give His son for them, that they ought to love Him in return.

 

[LeviR]

God loves righteousness. Wickedness, not so much.

 

[electedbyHim]

Read the bible and do what it says.

But you do not see the sinfulness of man in the Bible.

Also, you did not answer the question.

Are you a "Jesus only" and deny the rest of the Scriptures?

 

[JLB]

God loves righteousness. Wickedness, not so much.

God hates evil.

God loves people.

 

[Free]

Unfortunately for those who follow the teachings of Calvinism totally and utterly mean the same thing.



View attachment 17540

Since you're still on this, I'll help you out. You're being very misleading with this and you don't have a legitimate argument. You're doing the equivalent of picking one definition of a word in the Bible to support a belief while ignoring several other possible definitions that don't support that belief. More importantly, meaning is based on context, so ignoring the context is to ignore the meaning.

You previously stated:

"Total depravity refers to the theological belief that every part of human nature has been tainted by sin since the fall of Adam. Contrary to what some may assume, total depravity does not mean that humans are as sinful as they could possibly be, but rather that sin affects every aspect of our being, including our mind, will, emotions, and spirit.

And we have this statement -

• Not Utter Depravity: It doesn’t mean we’re as bad as possible, but highlights our total inability without God."

Notice that they're literally telling you that "total depravity" is "not utter depravity." Right there that tells you that certain meanings are being used where "total" clearly does not mean "utter" or vice versa. Both of the contexts for "total depravity"--"does not mean that humans are as sinful as they possibly could be"--and "not utter depravity"--"It doesn't mean we're as bad as possible"--are the same.

We know from the statements that "utter" is being used to mean "as bad as possible," which is a legitimate use, and "total" to mean "every part of human nature has been tainted by sin," which is also a legitimate use. How else could that be stated? What other word could be used to describe "every part" of something?

It is the equivalent of this:

2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.(KJV)

The KJV has been used to teach the heresy of sinless perfectionism on these forums, as you know. However, in arguing against the heresy, you argued that:

"That's what the word perfect means; complete.

Lacking nothing. Fit for the Master's use." HERE

You argued to the correct meaning of artios given the context, although your reasoning is not quite correct. There is a distinction in meaning--artios can mean perfect or complete; there is nuance there--so why do you not allow the same for others when it comes to "total" and "utter"?

There is no problem here. It's all quite self-explanatory and your confusion on the issue isn't at all proof that "using non scriptural words and terms leads to more and more confusion." If you're going to ignore how language is used or be inconsistent in how you understand meanings of words in context, then yes, you will be confused.

 

[JLB]

But you do not see the sinfulness of man in the Bible.

Of course.

Mankind inherited sin (sin nature; a propensity to sin) from Adam.

Man needs a Savior.

Because God loves the world of unsaved people, He sent His Son to die for us... that whoever believes in Him will not perish but receive eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world?

 

[Tenchi]

How do you know for sure that they weren't born-again through faith in the future Messiah?

How do you know for sure that they were born-again? I think all that Scripture obliges me to think on this head is that Christ's atoning sacrifice justified OT people like Noah, Daniel, Job, etc. How they would have been born-again after the manner of post-Calvary Christians, which condition was necessarily predicated on Christ's sacrifice, is a mystery to me. I would have to be wearing Calvinist lenses as I read Scripture to see such a thing in it.

 

[Whatever]

Some aren’t prepared to pluck out their eye and cut off their hand.

That wouldn't do any good. They would simply be a one handed one eyed goat.

 

[Whatever]

Do you believe men are totally depraved but not utterly depraved?

1 Ti 6:4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words . . .

 

[electedbyHim]

Of course.

Mankind inherited sin (sin nature; a propensity to sin) from Adam.

Man needs a Savior.

Because God loves the world of unsaved people, He sent His Son to die for us... that whoever believes in Him will not perish but receive eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world?

God has a love for all humans.

I would say He has a special love for His elect (the regenerate).

As I have stated before, we cannot understabd the hate and love of God, it is beyond our fallible minds and nothing like we think.

Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.