Total Depravity

[turnorburn]

You are free to ignore everything I just said, as well as understand how Verbal Plenary Inspiration works and assert that God says his own works are filthy rags, that is in fact what you are claiming by saying that God said this in the first person.

Why are you putting words in my mouth i didn't say Gods works are as filthy rags that's blaspheme; Gods word says "our works" without a verbal plenary..

tob

 

[Willie T]

the rebuttal is to ask if mans nature has improved sense the Lord said.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I wish this topic was settled in my head 2

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply Deb...

Well, considering that none of the psalms were written much later than around 450 years before Jesus was born, I would say you can look at things Jesus said about men in His time, to discount what you cited. He said John was the greatest among men... and He said Peter had things revealed to Him by The Spirit... and I'll leave you to dig up anything else you might care to.

 

[turnorburn]

God saw fit that this passage was note and addressed in the NT . Seems this speaks clearly to the sinful nature of man..

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why are you putting words in my mouth i didn't say Gods works are as filthy rags that's blaspheme; Gods word says "our works" without a verbal plenary..

tob

Please define the word "our," then you will understand my point. I also don't see how you said no verbal plenary required. This is a view that effects every text.

 

[turnorburn]

Our means our righteousness, we are bad to the bone from birth, how would you explain verbal plenary to a first grader?

tob

 

[eddif]

The eunuch was quoting OT passage
Acts 8:33
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Some of the OT passages were not understood at the time they were prophetically spoken. By prophets. The understanding would come in the New Testament times by Spirit filled apostles.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Our welding glasses still make some of this dim.

eddif

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Our means our righteousness, we are bad to the bone from birth, how would you explain verbal plenary to a first grader?

tob

That God speaks to us, and he uses people like you and me to do it. Yet, you and me never to cease to be ourselves. That is verbal plenary inspiration.

 

[Deborah13]

the rebuttal is to ask if mans nature has improved sense the Lord said.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I wish this topic was settled in my head 2

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply Deb...

I don't think man's nature has changed since the garden. We are born with the "Me" syndrome. If God had not done all the things that He has right from the beginning, to allow us to know Him, we probably would have killed each other off by now.
However, I do believe that He does give us a new nature when He dwells in us. The new creature in Christ.

 

[reba]

I don't think man's nature has changed since the garden. We are born with the "Me" syndrome. If God had not done all the things that He has right from the beginning, to allow us to know Him, we probably would have killed each other off by now.
However, I do believe that He does give us a new nature when He dwells in us. The new creature in Christ.

Totally agree and so thankful for the indwelling ..

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by hisSon, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

IMHO he spoke:
Through creation. Romans 1:19-20
Through his prophets
Through his Son Jesus
Through the spirituals (gifts / signs - confirms)

eddif

 

[eddif]

I Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Revelation from God is complex, and way beyond who:
The prophets were
Who we are (through a glass darkly)
Beyond angels

eddif

 

[Butch5]

the rebuttal is to ask if mans nature has improved sense the Lord said.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I wish this topic was settled in my head 2

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply Deb...

Reba, verse one is speaking of the fool.

 

[reba]

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

That does not change my thoughts , or better said, questions..

 

[Butch5]

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

That does not change my thoughts , or better said, questions..

It seems to me that it's referring to the fool who says, no God.

 

[reba]

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[reba]

Butch5 I also believe these verses are Scripture .. trying to meld them together in my head 2 is a head ache
Jer_29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

 

[eddif]

trying to meld them together in my head 2 is a head ache

IMHO , here are all the concepts melded.

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What is impossible by man is possible by God.
God sent his Son as a sacrifice for sins.

God hides his treasures in earthern vessels. This shows God's power belongs to God and not man.

The flesh is changed at the last trump.

God sent the flood to deal with total depravity. The covenant had blessings and curse. The fear of a blood curse helped fund change.

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

The schoolmaster just ramped up punishment , and Moses law is not here yet. Maybe this was prophetic and in the future it was complete.

eddif

 

[Butch5]

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Hi Reba,
Paul quotes these passages to prove that the Jew is not righteous either. The Jew would readily agree with Paul that the Gentiles were unrighteous, but the Jew?

KJV Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (Rom 3:1 KJV)

Paul quotes the passages you posted from the OT to prove that the Jews isn't righteous either. These passages are quoted often in support of Total Depravity. I think, however, that it is a huge leap to go from, no one is righteous to Man is totally depraved. To me that would be like going to a new car lot and deciding, none of these cars are perfect so they're all junk. I don't think anyone would really draw that conclusion. Likewise, I don't think that because no one is without sin it means that no one is able to do anything good.

What's interesting about this is that Paul quotes Psalm 14 and/or 53, 'is there any that seek God'. These Psalms were written by the man who is probably the most famous for seeking God, David. If one is making the case that man is incapable of seeking God, why would one quote the man most famous for seeking God?

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 I also believe these verses are Scripture .. trying to meld them together in my head 2 is a head ache
Jer_29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

That's why I believe every passage must be understood within the context in which it is written. Ever since chapter and verse numbers were added it's been to easy to just grab one or two sentences from the Scriptures without concern for their context.

 

[eddif]

That's why I believe every passage must be understood within the context in which it is written. Ever since chapter and verse numbers were added it's been to easy to just grab one or two sentences from the Scriptures without concern for their context.

Question.
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John;

Using context how do you read the law without ignoring the Kingdom message?

I take the context of the kingdom with my mind
to read the law lawfully. I use both contexts to not get lost.

eddif