Tribulation...

[Sam21]

That's because - by your very own admission - you refuse to see the evidence!



Willfully obtuse AND insulting all in one! Way to go !

Actually I am quite open to evidence, I just will not buy a pig in a poke(as the saying goes). I freely admitted that the NT speaks of the return of Christ and the events of Rev as being soon to occur,so I am not denying what is in the bible. There is simply no evidence that Jesus returned or that the events in Rev have occured. The evidence you present would be laughed out of a court of law because it is all conjucture and imagination,it may be real to you because you want it to be real. You have chosen preterist so after the choice the evidence falls into place because after the choice you became bias. I am willing to accept whatever is truth,however I make no choice that would make me bias therefore I see your evidence as mostly imagination tainted by bias for a position. No insult meant by any of this, to me you are using imagination and speculation and conjecture for your evidence...that just does not work for me.

 

[Stormcrow]

When death is defeated no one will ever die again,yet there is still dying....satan is the reason we die,it is he who has the power of death,which is why he is called death.Although defeated,he has yet to be destroyed

Wow. :o2

Let's see just how badly you've mangled the gospel here, one sentence at a time:

When death is defeated no one will ever die again,yet there is still dying

{25} Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, {26} and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26 (NASB)

Pretty much covers both bases, I'd say! Jesus IS the resurrection! That's why Paul could write:

{1} What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? {2} May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? {3} Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? {4} Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

{5}For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, {6} knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; {7} for he who has died is freed from sin. Romans 6:1-7 (NASB)

Notice Paul writes of this freedom from sin in the past tense relating it to Christ's death and resurrection as that which frees us from death and sin!

If you have been saved by the blood of Christ, then you have already been freed from sin. Period.

[1]satan is the reason we die,[2]it is he who has the power of death,[3]which is why he is called death.

This is [1] wrong, [2] "wronger", and [3] "wrongest!"

The Bible I read teaches that Adam's sin is the reason we die! Satan tempted Him, but it was His choice that caused sin and death to enter the world!

{12} Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12 (NASB)

Now, regarding bracketed point 2 above:

{9} For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, {10} and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; {11} and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; {12} having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. {13} When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, {14} having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. {15} When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Colossians 2:9-15 (NASB)

The victory over sin, death, and the "principalities and powers of the air" has already been won by Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection! Sin no longer has power over us and because it does not, DEATH does not!

This is so utterly fundamental to our faith that Paul said if any man came preaching another gospel than this, he should be accursed! (Gal. 1:8-9).

Finally, Satan is not death nor does he even hold the keys of death and hell!!!

{17} When I saw Him [the risen, ascended, glorified Christ], I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, {18} and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

 

[Stormcrow]

There is simply no evidence that Jesus returned or that the events in Rev have occured.

None that will satisfy you. You've made that quite clear:

It is coming folks, and no devil from hell will convince me otherwise.

 

[Sinthesis]

You have chosen preterist so after the choice the evidence falls into place because after the choice you became bias. I am willing to accept whatever is truth,however I make no choice that would make me bias therefore I see your evidence as mostly imagination tainted by bias for a position. No insult meant by any of this, to me you are using imagination and speculation and conjecture for your evidence...that just does not work for me.

What you haven't realized yet is that you are just as biased as those you are so quick to judge. Nothing is ever going to be 'proven' to you because interpretation is by necessity subjective. That is why it is called belief; and prophecy is for Believers (1Cr 14:22). Because we all have a bias, the question becomes how do we acknowledge it, and consider how it affects our understanding of the message of the Lord. One way is to meekly acknowledge that you just might not be the focus of the Bible. And if that is true, then perhaps your generation is no more special than any other.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Warfrog. You said:

I actually do agree with some things preterist view Ie: the temple spoken of isnt actually a building of rock and cement or stone, the temple is each heart of man and that is where God recides, through His Holy Spirit.
So those expecting someone to stop animal sacrifices and set up an abomination in an actual man made temple on earth is wrong, the temple is in the heart and the abomination that stands where it ought not to be standing is the man of lawlessness declaring himself as God and all the people not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb having him dwell in thier hearts as God, believing he is God.

I also agree and believe the above. But I do want to make it clear that these beliefs aren't confined to preterism. It's also found in amil, partial preterism, historicism and I probably missed a view or two.

Also, I urge all those who regularly study the Bible to look at the differences between tribulation and wrath. There are groups of believers who lump both together as one. They are not.

 

[warfrog]

Hi Warfrog. You said:


I also agree and believe the above. But I do want to make it clear that these beliefs aren't confined to preterism. It's also found in amil, partial preterism, historicism and I probably missed a view or two.

Also, I urge all those who regularly study the Bible to look at the differences between tribulation and wrath. There are groups of believers who lump both together as one. They are not.

Agreed.

Oy, lol i actually dont really know the "definitions" for the different categories of interpretation, preterist for me is those who veiw the events of Revelation as past ext or mostly fullfilled, maybe ill just call that "historiscist or pastist" ?? lol cause i call future veiwers "futurist" i suppose that would suffice to clam all of either way into 2 groups for easier understanding???

i dont know the complete understanding of all the little subdivisions nor do i care because each individual might have a slightly different take on things even within thier own divisions and if i really wanted to know each and every single different viewpoint of each and every interpreted division i would pass from this flesh several times over before nailing each and every single interpretation down to an understanding of that persons interpretation.

So in short, you have what i view above, take the preterist part out and it still holds the same, i know the temple as the heart of each man, as those who see it that way, whether they see the events of Revelation as past or future, viola! we see that part the same.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hitch]

HaroldWhereAreYou?

Tuned in to see what the Campers were talking about today and got nothing but static, no ,,,real static. Net site wouldnt load either.:D

 

[warhorse]

None that will satisfy you. You've made that quite clear:

I actually agree with 90% of your stated positions here storm. I am a post tribulational, part preterist myself. But to insinute that christ returned in 70 ad, is a bridge too far, and a step beyond reason. There is no evidence that the tribulation has ended, there is no evidence that the 6th seal has been fullfilled. Yes there are simularities between the prophacies of christs return and the destruction of Jerusalam that would match up to many of the 19 times Jerusalam was sacked. But they have not nor could they have all been fullfilled then.

 

[warfrog]

Re: HaroldWhereAreYou?

Tuned in to see what the Campers were talking about today and got nothing but static, no ,,,real static. Net site wouldnt load either.:D

I read in another post i believe, that they were supposed to just chill and relax around before that day and on it?

The main guy is supposed to just listen to the radio and watch t.v with his family or something on the day?

Probably wont be much going on if thats true.
Someone also might have hacked thier stuff again, or they shut it down or something for the time being.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Sam21]

I think it would be a great idea to actually state(like Warhorse)exactly what we DO BELIEVE and then we could see where we agree and disagree,it seems that almost everyone agrees with others in some areas. Here is my position,I believe Jesus spoke to His generation about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction and scattering of Israel. Because Jesus said that He would return immediately after the tribulation that He described,and He did not return,therefore I believe that Jesus was also describing another greater tribulation at the end of the age that would involve the antichrist. I believe that the OT demonstrates that a prophecy can have an immediate and future fulfillment. I also believe that Rev was written after 90AD,I have studied this part of history carefully with much thought and the greater evidence is after 90AD. In spite of a few embellishments by Josephus,I do not find any solid evidence that Jesus returned in the first century. I believe that the Lord will return post-trib and that pre-trib people have changed the meaning of the great tribulation from the wrath of satan to the wrath of God in order to support pre-trib. I believe we are presently in the latter days because of an increase of knowledge and travel as told by an angel to Daniel. I also believe that Israel being in their home land is in the plan of God. Also,I do not see how that Christ rejecting Jews could build a third Temple of God for the antichrist to profane...so I am still out on that one. I do not believe that even the first seal has been opened yet because the very first seal is the conquering antichrist and that has not yet happened. Anyway,this is so everyone can know where I stand...let the attacks begin(he,he).

 

[King Hezekiah]

Re: HaroldWhereAreYou?

I read in another post i believe, that they were supposed to just chill and relax around before that day and on it?

The main guy is supposed to just listen to the radio and watch t.v with his family or something on the day?

Probably wont be much going on if thats true.
Someone also might have hacked thier stuff again, or they shut it down or something for the time being.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hmm...that's interesting the website and radio has worked fine all day for me.

 

[jasoncran]

does said kingdom have any physical attributes? ie a sinner repents and the fruits show up sooner or later. and sometimes even then.

 

[Hitch]

I think it would be a great idea to actually state(like Warhorse)exactly what we DO BELIEVE and then we could see where we agree and disagree,it seems that almost everyone agrees with others in some areas. Here is my position,I believe Jesus spoke to His generation about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction and scattering of Israel. Because Jesus said that He would return immediately after the tribulation that He described,and He did not return,therefore I believe that Jesus was also describing another greater tribulation at the end of the age that would involve the antichrist. I believe that the OT demonstrates that a prophecy can have an immediate and future fulfillment. I also believe that Rev was written after 90AD,I have studied this part of history carefully with much thought and the greater evidence is after 90AD. In spite of a few embellishments by Josephus,I do not find any solid evidence that Jesus returned in the first century. I believe that the Lord will return post-trib and that pre-trib people have changed the meaning of the great tribulation from the wrath of satan to the wrath of God in order to support pre-trib. I believe we are presently in the latter days because of an increase of knowledge and travel as told by an angel to Daniel. I also believe that Israel being in their home land is in the plan of God. Also,I do not see how that Christ rejecting Jews could build a third Temple of God for the antichrist to profane...so I am still out on that one. I do not believe that even the first seal has been opened yet because the very first seal is the conquering antichrist and that has not yet happened. Anyway,this is so everyone can know where I stand...let the attacks begin(he,he).

Re: Tribulation...

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jesus came ,successfully inaugurated the prophesied kingdom which will grow through history until He returns and calls all who are in the grave, on the last day.​

 

[Stormcrow]

But to insinute that christ returned in 70 ad, is a bridge too far, and a step beyond reason.

I'm not going to post all the verses again that illustrate how Christ was leading His disciples and apostles to the conclusion that His retuen would be in their lifetime. I've done that several times on several threads.

So the question that remains is, if Christ said He was coming back in their lifetimes, then either He was lying or our understanding of what His coming means has to change.

Put another way, if I leave a note telling you - by name - that I am coming to see you soon and someone with the same name finds the note 2,000 years later, what is the most reasonable, logical conclusion they could draw from it: that the note was meant for them or for the person to whom it was written in the past?

This is the problem with the view some people here are taking: we know who Christ's audience was, we know what the signs were, we even know that most - if not all - were fulfilled by the time 70 AD rolled around, and yet people want to make Christ's words intended for the people of His time about us!

One doesn't have to be a preterist to understand this stuff: one simply has to begin with the premise that Christ was telling His disciples the truth and take Him at His word. That's all.

 

[Stormcrow]

I think it would be a great idea to actually state(like Warhorse)exactly what we DO BELIEVE and then we could see where we agree and disagree

I think it would be better to see what the Bible says and align our beliefs to that. What I believe or do not believe ultimately does not matter to that which is true.

 

[warhorse]

I think it would be a great idea to actually state(like Warhorse)exactly what we DO BELIEVE and then we could see where we agree and disagree,it seems that almost everyone agrees with others in some areas. Here is my position,I believe Jesus spoke to His generation about the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction and scattering of Israel. Because Jesus said that He would return immediately after the tribulation that He described,and He did not return,therefore I believe that Jesus was also describing another greater tribulation at the end of the age that would involve the antichrist. I believe that the OT demonstrates that a prophecy can have an immediate and future fulfillment. I also believe that Rev was written after 90AD,I have studied this part of history carefully with much thought and the greater evidence is after 90AD. In spite of a few embellishments by Josephus,I do not find any solid evidence that Jesus returned in the first century. I believe that the Lord will return post-trib and that pre-trib people have changed the meaning of the great tribulation from the wrath of satan to the wrath of God in order to support pre-trib. I believe we are presently in the latter days because of an increase of knowledge and travel as told by an angel to Daniel. I also believe that Israel being in their home land is in the plan of God. Also,I do not see how that Christ rejecting Jews could build a third Temple of God for the antichrist to profane...so I am still out on that one. I do not believe that even the first seal has been opened yet because the very first seal is the conquering antichrist and that has not yet happened. Anyway,this is so everyone can know where I stand...let the attacks begin(he,he).

Two answers for two questions.

Rev 24v1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

[Sam21]

Two answers for two questions.

Rev 24v1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I agree,Jesus was answering two questions, one was within that generation and the other was for the end of the age.

 

[Sam21]

I think it would be better to see what the Bible says and align our beliefs to that. What I believe or do not believe ultimately does not matter to that which is true.

What you said is true,however for a productive discussion it is best to know exactly what the other person believes,this would at least remove the useless agruing when we are on the same side of a particular issue. For instance, I agree with you that the NT is telling us that the return of Christ is soon to occur,I may not agree with you about what that means but I do agree that the NT is saying that,so there is no point in us arguing that particular point.

 

[warhorse]

I'm not going to post all the verses again that illustrate how Christ was leading His disciples and apostles to the conclusion that His retuen would be in their lifetime. I've done that several times on several threads.

So the question that remains is, if Christ said He was coming back in their lifetimes, then either He was lying or our understanding of what His coming means has to change.

Put another way, if I leave a note telling you - by name - that I am coming to see you soon and someone with the same name finds the note 2,000 years later, what is the most reasonable, logical conclusion they could draw from it: that the note was meant for them or for the person to whom it was written in the past?

This is the problem with the view some people here are taking: we know who Christ's audience was, we know what the signs were, we even know that most - if not all - were fulfilled by the time 70 AD rolled around, and yet people want to make Christ's words intended for the people of His time about us!

One doesn't have to be a preterist to understand this stuff: one simply has to begin with the premise that Christ was telling His disciples the truth and take Him at His word. That's all.

This is where we differ. i do not believe that Jesus implied that his return was near or soon, in fact he said, he himself did not no when it would be.
.
Math 24v
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
( summer is the season of harvest )
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(The generation ending the harvest)
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and HOUR knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what HOUR your Lord doth come.

 

[warhorse]

I agree,Jesus was answering two questions, one was within that generation and the other was for the end of the age.

The first was the destruction of the temple in 70 ad, the second and seperate question was when was the end, and his return. They recognised that his return was in the end.