Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[Drew]

What are God's wings?

What does God use to gather his people together?

What one unique Son is the absolute expression of that thing that God uses to hold his people together?

What one unique Son lives to do his Father's will?

I do not see the relevance of these questions. I think the argument is pretty clear and easy to understand. God describes himself as a bird under whose wings the people seek refuge. Jesus uses the very same metaphor in related to the very same people to refer to Himself. It is, of course, possible that this is a wild co-incidence, and that in likening Himself to a bird wanting to cover Israel with His wings, it is just "accidental" that this same phrase was used by God.

I suggest that Jesus was a lot more shrewd than this, and knew exactly what He was doing. He is saying that He is indeed the physical embodiment of that same God who made the same promise.

I have no idea what your questions mean. On the matter of "what are God's wings?", I would suggest that a metaphor is being clearly used and that the wings are the means by which God protects His people just as a mother hen protects her chicks under her wings.

I politely suggest you are avoiding the thrust of the argument with these questions.

 

[Drew]

Look at your own speech to cleanfreak:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/...tarians-believe-34014/index21.html#post517280

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/trinitarianism-what-non-trinitarians-believe-34014/index20.html#post515543

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/trinitarianism-what-non-trinitarians-believe-34014/index20.html#post515544

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/trinitarianism-what-non-trinitarians-believe-34014/index20.html#post515664

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/trinitarianism-what-non-trinitarians-believe-34014/index19.html#post514864

[URL]http://www.christianforums.net/f17/trinitarianism-what-non-trinitarians-believe-34014/index19.html#post514865[/URL]

I looked at all these references and saw nothing inappropriate on the part of this administrator. Yes, he asserted other posters were doing things like "evading" and "poisoning the well". Well, the latter is a well-known term for a debating "error". Is Free not allowed to identify it as such? Likewise, when people evade, is Free not "allowed" to point this out?

There is a real difference between what Free is doing and what you have been doing (although you did retro-actively edit your posts).

Free is making "judgements" about debating technique, or method.

You, on the other hand were making judgements about the person, for example suggesting that I am "vain".

Do you not see the difference?

Anyway, can we not stick to the arguments for and against the divinity of Jesus and leave speculations about motivation and character out? Confession: I have called other posters "liars" in other threads. So I admit that I have stepped across this line at times, so I direct this suggestion to myself as much as to others.

 

[Hitch]

Since you asked I will tell you.

What I see is that none of you practice tolerance. You sit back like spoiled little children with bows and arrows ready to fire at shadows of your imaginations and expecting a policeman to protect you from anything even your own imaginations.

I have directly been told on other threads that I was an AntiChrist, that I was hell bound, that I preached unforgivable heresy. And when i came back to the one saying those things to me only quoting the scripture that says not to cry Racca, another spoiled brat who i had not even said it to began persuing me with visciousness. And that is typical of what i find on this entire Bible site.

You people are so haughty and prideful that you allow yourselves and any that agree with your points of view to say anything. You have your collection of ways to justify yourselves and your supportors of view and you band together to punish and reidicule any who in your spoiled brat infintile state you IMAGINE told you something offensive.

The good part of you are beyond being reached to be helped because you are posed and ready to kill Christ just as his first century murderers.

And you even imagine that it is a privilege to come into to your den of danger to be falsely critiqued by you in the name of your not desiring correction.

Wow is you, Woe is all of you, for you are a crooked and Evil generation.

Laugh of the day.:waving

 

[JudaicChristian]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

Why's that, doesn't the living and powerful word of God throughly equip the man of God ?



Where's faith come in here..? Do the holy scriptures correct you or do you feel the need to correct Him when He speaks in simplicity and in truth..?



Who says that ? I certainly wouldn't.. although denying that God was manifest in the flesh, or that He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, or that God did not shed His own blood is literally denying the truth of His word..

The man of God lives by every word that proceeds from Him.. not by correcting it in order to hold to some other belief..

Here is the bottom line. God's words are true, but, "Man does not faithfully retranslate the words of God, nor the prophets." If you want to know more about what I believe, then follow the link ""JudaicChristian"" below.

 

[Eventide]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

Here is the bottom line. God's words are true, but, "Man does not faithfully retranslate the words of God, nor the prophets." If you want to know more about what I believe, then follow the link ""JudaicChristian"" below.

How would you know this ? Wouldn't that require YOU being the standard for the truth ?

 

[Elijah674]

Judaic Christian..

Who do YOU say that Jesus is.. ?

Could you be detailed and/or point me in the direction of a post of yours which explains your belief in detail?

Surely Jer. 17 here is Eternal Truth! (do we need man's 'uninspired' help?)

Jer. 17

[5] Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. ...

(and the below End Times ones, how do you suppose that they ENDED UP as Inspiration Warns & Documents?? And NO, there is no answer needed for me. But some think that.. that only means for one to 'backslide' perhps? yet, read it again!? What business has one of God's Children got for even reading the devils stuff.. when they know that such is so?? And what is worse still, lets say that you are trying as a 'meat fed' one, to teach others? What example am 'i' to these 'MILK FED ONES' who cannot even get off of the pacifier when I do this?)
[6] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
[7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
[8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

And surely these below are End Time has/beens! (according to God) So, the question 'begs' the Truth as well! The Church Fathers?? Sure, at that time period, they no doubt(?) had 'some' that were living to the best of their 'knowledge'. (and the today ones? Eccl. 3:15) We see the END TIME ONES still doing the Forbidden thing! Hosea 4:6 & Dan. 12:1-4 must still find them living back in the DARK ages of Eve's day, going on the forbidden ground of satan's [words] & teachings.
And was she a match for satan temptations, and other things of calling God a liar??? (Gen. 3:15) Also remember that she was CREATED SINLESS! And we have Christ's Words of Matt. 4:7, Matt. 22:18.

Rev. 17


[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

OK: Why not leave the personal love letter's back & forth.. or 'attack' stuff, & just do as God REQUIRES? Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16 Surely one can learn from ONLY GODS WORD????????

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

You need to purchase for yourself some better study books.
------------
Elijah here: My K.J. Bible needs replaced you say with 'some better books'! Say's the one in Gen. 4:7 'me' thinks, that sold Cain on REBELLION! satan the serpent!
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For example, the words "God head" are not in the actual scriptures. The term "no beginning" is a contradiction to the Old Testament. And those who say "you will go to Hell if you do not believe in Trinitarianism;" That is not scriptural! You need to know what you are talking about before you instruct others.

------------
And the above paragraph is also of the devil's doctrine. Unconditional Immortality with God alone is not in His Word?? 1 Tim. 1:15-17 + 1 Tim. 6:16!
And the Godhead are actually seen in Gen. 1! And 2 John 1:9 has the Holy Spirits DOCUMENTATION to where one WILL END UP when they are in Heb. 6:6 as fully Matured, if their teaching is Against This Eternal Doctrine of Christ God!

And the rest of your self condemnation? 'i' do agree with you on that.

---Elijah
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[JudaicChristian]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

------------
And the above paragraph is also of the devil's doctrine. Unconditional Immortality with God alone is not in His Word?? 1 Tim. 1:15-17 + 1 Tim. 6:16!
And the Godhead are actually seen in Gen. 1! And 2 John 1:9 has the Holy Spirits DOCUMENTATION to where one WILL END UP when they are in Heb. 6:6 as fully Matured, if their teaching is Against This Eternal Doctrine of Christ God!

And the rest of your self condemnation? 'i' do agree with you on that.

---Elijah
-------------

It is a sin to bring a false charge against a person Elijah.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

How would you know this ? Wouldn't that require YOU being the standard for the truth ?

My recommendation is that you do a more in depth study of the scriptures. Being sarcastic only shows your ignorance.

 

[Eventide]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

My recommendation is that you do a more in depth study of the scriptures. Being sarcastic only shows your ignorance.

While I accept your recommendation, I certainly was not being sarcastic at all.. the question is serious and genuine.. wouldn't you need to be the standard of the truth in order to KNOW this ?

And I'd also be interested in the question which Jesus asks..

Who do men say that I am ?

So who do you say that Jesus is.. ?

 

[Eventide]

Rebekah

Not too long ago we were discussing the story of Rebekah in Genesis.. and imo this is a wonderful picture of the Godhead..

For context the story begins after Abraham takes his only begotten son Isaac to the mountain of God to sacrifice him there according to the commandment of God.. they come down from the mountain and then we read of Sarah's death..

Then Abraham sends his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son..

Remind you of anything..

Abraham is a type of the Father..

Isaac is a type of the Son..

The eldest servant who was sent is a type of the Holy Spirit..

Rebekah would be a type of the church..

And Sarah would represent Israel..

Cool story which is living and powerful and tells the story centuries before it ever came to pass..

.02

 

[JudaicChristian]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

While I accept your recommendation, I certainly was not being sarcastic at all.. the question is serious and genuine.. wouldn't you need to be the standard of the truth in order to KNOW this ?

And I'd also be interested in the question which Jesus asks..

Who do men say that I am ?

So who do you say that Jesus is.. ?

I apologize for misunderstanding you. In Heaven Peniel (AKA Phanuel) was known as the Angel of the Lord. (Messenger of the Lord) He was placed in Mary's womb by Yahwah the Holy Spirit and born Yahshua, whom is Yah's Salvation. His purpose for being here was to fulfill prophecy and reconcile mankind to Yahwah. And that is the reason for a New Covenant. Yahshua is a god from Heaven whom the Father has made His very own son. I could go on and on, but this thread is about Trinitarianism.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Re: Rebekah

Not too long ago we were discussing the story of Rebekah in Genesis.. and imo this is a wonderful picture of the Godhead..

For context the story begins after Abraham takes his only begotten son Isaac to the mountain of God to sacrifice him there according to the commandment of God.. they come down from the mountain and then we read of Sarah's death..

Then Abraham sends his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son..

Remind you of anything..

Abraham is a type of the Father..

Isaac is a type of the Son..

The eldest servant who was sent is a type of the Holy Spirit..

Rebekah would be a type of the church..

And Sarah would represent Israel..

Cool story which is living and powerful and tells the story centuries before it ever came to pass..

.02

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.

 

[JudaicChristian]

For you Drew.

Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym); besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym) in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other gods (Elohiyms) before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the LORD (Yahwah) is one (only.)

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD (Yahwah) is God (Elohiym) and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am the LORD (Yahwah); that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.


Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant (Yahshua) whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god (el) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God (Eloah=God above) besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."



Isaiah 45:5. I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other; apart from me there is no God (Elohiym).

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what the LORD (Yahwah) says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans— they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely God (El) is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what the LORD (Yahwah) says: He who created the heavens, He is God (Elohiym); He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am the LORD (Yahwah), and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God (El), and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God (El), and there is no other; I am God (Elohiym), and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD (Yahwah) your God (Elohiym), and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.


Yahwah is God and he won't give his glory to another god.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29. "The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the Lord (Yahwah) is one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God (Yahwah) is one (only) and there is no other but Him.


John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...

Also Here:

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you.

Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Rebekah

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.

JC,

IMO you're looking at this with too much of a mechanical approach.. rather than in a simple living and powerful sense.

Just let the story tell the story.. that's one of the limitless aspects of the scriptures.. the stories are so simple that it makes them incorruptible and separated from the danger of any tampering..

 

[warhorse]

Re: So what ever happened to taking God at His word..?

I apologize for misunderstanding you. In Heaven Peniel (AKA Phanuel) was known as the Angel of the Lord. (Messenger of the Lord) He was placed in Mary's womb by Yahwah the Holy Spirit and born Yahshua, whom is Yah's Salvation. His purpose for being here was to fulfill prophecy and reconcile mankind to Yahwah. And that is the reason for a New Covenant. Yahshua is a god from Heaven whom the Father has made His very own son. I could go on and on, but this thread is about Trinitarianism.

Hmmm ive read the bible through about a dozen times but i seem to have missed that part, where exactly does that derive from.

 

[Eventide]

Holy, holy, holy...

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Interesting that the four beasts constantly say that the Lord God Almighty is thrice holy.. not one, not two, not four, not any other number, but thrice holy..

 

[Eventide]

Genesis 18

Another wonderous story from Genesis...

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, and said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

It says the LORD appeared to Abraham.. and Abraham sees three men..

 

[JudaicChristian]

Re: Genesis 18

Another wonderous story from Genesis...

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, and said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

It says the LORD appeared to Abraham.. and Abraham sees three men..

3+1=4. Abraham saw three men standing by the one man. There are many lords. Both Yahwah and Yahshua are called lord. We should always be careful not to imagine vain things.

 

[Sparkey]

Greetings, Judiac Christian!

I've been to your site and have read most (not all) posts in this thread. If I understand well you are saying that Jesus (Yahshua) is the Son of God (YHWH) and you believe that it is by that man (who came in flesh and lived with us, died and death could not hold him, so is alive today) that all men are saved. In other words, Jesus is the promised Messiah: the Christ. Further you believe that God is Spirit and has declared, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD." Further, you state that Jesus teaches this too.

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"

And Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is], 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength' --this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' There is none other commandment greater than these."

And the scribe said unto him, "Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God."

And no man after that durst ask him [any question]." - Mark 12:28-34 KJV