Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[Drew]

For you Drew.
......

Fair enough - I will need to deal with these texts in order to sustain my "Trinitarian" view.

But, likewise, you must actually engage the arguments presented in posts 85 and 86. What you have posted here is not a response to posts 85 and 86 - it is an entirely different argument. And that's fine for what it is, but you have to actually show the error in posts 85 and 86 in order for your position to be sustained.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Genesis 18

3+1=4. Abraham saw three men standing by the one man. There are many lords. Both Yahwah and Yahshua are called lord. We should always be careful not to imagine vain things.

I could be wrong JC, although I think that the him in that first verse is referring to Abraham.. the three men stood before him.. ie, Abraham.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Greetings, Judiac Christian!

I've been to your site and have read most (not all) posts in this thread. If I understand well you are saying that Jesus (Yahshua) is the Son of God (YHWH) and you believe that it is by that man (who came in flesh and lived with us, died and death could not hold him, so is alive today) that all men are saved. In other words, Jesus is the promised Messiah: the Christ. Further you believe that God is Spirit and has declared, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD." Further, you state that Jesus teaches this too.

Yes, that is correct. Matthew 28 originally did not have the Trinitarian formula. Originally it said baptise in my name only, which also agrees with other New Testament scriptures. The Catholics were the Pagan Gnostic's, but they called others who did not agree with them gnostic, meaning they only thinks they know. They would go out on Saturday to find and capture people gathering at people homes for the Sabbath. If they would find scriptures with them they would prosecute them as heretics. The heretics were the Judaizing Christians, they were burned at the stake with the scriptures. The Catholics would replace the original scriptures with their own versions.

 

[Sparkey]

You would then agree with Peter who admonished Jews to be baptized in the Name of Jesus?

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, "Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?"

Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." - Acts 2:37-39 KJV

These truths are the basis of your belief(s), yes?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Fair enough - I will need to deal with these texts in order to sustain my "Trinitarian" view.

But, likewise, you must actually engage the arguments presented in posts 85 and 86. What you have posted here is not a response to posts 85 and 86 - it is an entirely different argument. And that's fine for what it is, but you have to actually show the error in posts 85 and 86 in order for your position to be sustained.

You need to rewrite your questions, because you mixed scriptures pertaining to God and Yahshua as the same person.

 

[Free]

Yes, that is correct. Matthew 28 originally did not have the Trinitarian formula. Originally it said baptise in my name only

That is not necessarily the case as was shown earlier in this thread.

 

[JudaicChristian]

You would then agree with Peter who admonished Jews to be baptized in the Name of Jesus?

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, "Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?"

Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." - Acts 2:37-39 KJV

These truths are the basis of your belief(s), yes?

Yes, repent and be baptist in the name of Yahshua. The gift from Yahwah whom is the Holy Spirit is the gift of life immortal.

 

[JudaicChristian]

That is not necessarily the case as was shown earlier in this thread.

What you showed me was a non-scriptural statement by a person who had Gnostic beliefs. The Orthodox Jews and the Judaizing Christians never have believed in Trinitarianism.

 

[Drew]

You need to rewrite your questions, because you mixed scriptures pertaining to God and Yahshua as the same person.

No.

You simply are refusing to engage a clear argument that Jesus sees Himself as the embodiment of God. And this is quite telling. Besides, other "non-Trinitarians" have also refused to deal with the argument despite being repeatedlyreminded to do so.

Your line of reasoning here is simply not correct. The fact that there may be scriptures that refer to "God" and others that refer to "Yahshua" is entirely irrelevant - at least in respect to my argument. The reason is this: There are clear Old Testament prophecies about God returning to His people and to the temple in particular. And, in Luke, we have Jesus saying and doing things that clearly show that He (Jesus) believes that He is fulfilling those very prophecies.

This is very powerful evidence that Jesus understands Himself to be the embodiment of God. If the prophecies had been about someone other than God Himself, you might have a point. But the case is clear:

1. God promised that He (God) would return to His people;
2. Jesus acts in ways that make it clear that He (Jesus) is fulfilling that promise;
3. Therefore, Jesus must understand Himself to be God.

Please stop evading this argument - your statements that there are texts about God and texts about Yashua are not relevant to my argument for reasons that should be clear. In any event, I believe there is a fundamental problem with your reasoning, you assume a priori that the categories of "God" and "Yahshua" cannot overlap. You cannot assume this just as we cannot assume that two different people are being referred to in the following:

1. Barak Obama;
2. The President of the United States

 

[Sparkey]

With permission then I would seek to know more about what you believe.

"This is he of whom I said, "After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." - John 1:30-34 KJV

What means, "After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me?" Can you speak more about the Logos? What is your understanding of these deep things, please?

I do appreciate your patience and know that you have explained with care but not many can answer well under such scrutiny. Jesus did as did the scribe.

"And the scribe said unto him, "Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God."

 

[JudaicChristian]

It is wise for a person to question what they believe. God spoke through the prophet Daniel saying that His word would be tampered with.

Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and {truth} was thrown to the ground.

The Lord's Supper
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of Yahwah is not about meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

In history the fourth Lateran Council decreed that any believer should communicate at least once a year, at Easter. Afterwards it was determined that this Sacrament should be received three times in the year. At Easter, {Whitsuntide, ("Pentecost Sunday")} and Christmas. Whitsun (Also Whitsunday or Whit Sunday (from conflation of Whitson, "white Sunday," with wit, "understanding"; -tide, "season"; alternate, obsolete spelling, Qhythsontyd) is a festival which originated from the pagan celebration of Summer's Day, the beginning of the Summer half-year, in Europe. In France and England it took on some characteristics of Beltane. Whitsun was later incorporated into Pentecost in the Christian calendar which is the seventh Sunday after Easter and commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples of Christ. (Acts chapter 2).

A Gnostic error in the King James version.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,â€

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

According to the Holman Bible, some text have "broken" and other do not. That means that it is another Gnostic corruption of text.The word "broken" was most likely added during the fourth century. In John he tells the Jews, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." And when the Jews on that occasion complained that they did not understand what he meant, he added for their better understanding, that we should not think his body was to be actually eaten. He closed with these explanatory expressions: "The flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life."

LAST SUPPER
There are two reliefs which show Mithras celebrating a banquet. The first relief shows Mithras and Helios dining together after the sacrifice of the bull.
The other depicts Mithras dining with the sun before ascending into paradise with the other gods.
For some reason the tale becomes distorted with Mithras saying to his disciples, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." Come to find out this quote was added centuries later during the middle ages and is not even attributed to Mithras originally.

The Catholics were always looking for ways to show a relationship between Christianity and Paganism, that was in order to unite the people under one universal religion.

 

[Sparkey]

I was born into a family of mixed origins. My mother was Irish Catholic and my dad was Protestant (English). They agreed that it would be best to raise the kids without confusion and my dad was proselytized to her beliefs. When I was old enough to read the bible for myself (thankfully we don't need to know Latin for this now) I was presented with a conundrum that I'm sure those who are familiar with the "universal" beliefs taught can appreciate.

There are some very basic beliefs that are essential to all Christianity. The real issue is clearly defined:

"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2 John 1:6-11 KJV

Regarding the commandments I find that you are in agreement with what Jesus taught, "The first of all the commandments [is], 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength' --this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' There is none other commandment greater than these."

Cordially,

A brother known as Sparrow

 

[JudaicChristian]

With permission then I would seek to know more about what you believe.

"This is he of whom I said, "After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." - John 1:30-34 KJV

What means, "After me comes a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me?" Can you speak more about the Logos? What is your understanding of these deep things, please?

I do appreciate your patience and know that you have explained with care but not many can answer well under such scrutiny. Jesus did.
And the scribe said unto him, "Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God."

Yahwah sent John out to baptise with water and to prepare a way by announcing Yahshua's coming. The dove is only a parable here to symbolize peace. Notice the wording "like a dove." There is scripture to support the fact that Yahwah is a Spirit and that He is Holy; and that he is the "truth." The Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father Himself, a means to communicate with His creation. The term "Holy Spirit" is also used to mean "truth." Yahshua is the word of God because what ever he says is to be understood as coming from Yahwah. The Word was (a) god. Yahshua has been with Yahwah before the creation of this world. Sorry about the poor explanation, but it would take pages to give a better explanation.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I was born into a family of mixed origins. My mother was Irish Catholic and my dad was Protestant (English). They agreed that it would be best to raise the kids without confusion and my dad was proselytized to her beliefs. When I was old enough to read the bible for myself (thankfully we don't need to know Latin for this now) I was presented with a conundrum that I'm sure those who are familiar with the "universal" beliefs taught can appreciate.

There are some very basic beliefs that are essential to all Christianity. The real issue is clearly defined:



Regarding the commandments I find that you are in agreement with what Jesus taught, "The first of all the commandments [is], 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength' --this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.' There is none other commandment greater than these."

Cordially,

A brother known as Sparrow

It was the Hellenistic Jews along with others who did not believe Yahshua was a god in the flesh. Their focus was on a Messiah who comes with great power and authority, (the second coming.)

 

[Sparkey]

Yahwah sent John out to baptise with water and to prepare a way by announcing Yahshua's coming. The dove is only a parable here to symbolize peace. Notice the wording "like a dove." There is scripture to support the fact that Yahwah is a Spirit and that He is Holy; and that he is the "truth." The Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Father Himself, a means to communicate with His creation. The term "Holy Spirit" is also used to mean "truth." Yahshua is the word of God because what ever he says is to be understood as coming from Yahwah. The Word was (a) god. Yahshua has been with Yahwah before the creation of this world. Sorry about the poor explanation, but it would take pages to give a better explanation.

No apology is needed. It is very difficult to harness the tongue to the truth and in point of fact this can not be done except by the action of the Holy Spirit.

When you say, "The Word was (a) god," you are in reference to what we see in John's gospel and are replying to a very direct question of mine.

John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

English (KJV) Strong's Root Form (Greek) Tense
In ἐν en

the beginning ἀρχή archē

was ἦν ēn

the Word, λόγος logos

and καί kai

the Word λόγος logos

was ἦν ēn

with πρός pros

God, θεός theos

and καί kai

the Word λόγος logos

was ἦν ēn

God. θεός theos

________________________________________________________

NWT = John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
KJV = John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now I know that the views the JW's hold about the Deity of Christ differs from mine. So let’s not bring in our opinions about Theology just yet, let’s stick to Translations.

The NWT says Jesus was ‘a god’ - the KJV(and most every version I’ve ever read) says Jesus ‘was God’.
My question here is simple; “Which one of the above translations is right - “was a god”, or “was God”?”

 

[Who Says]

ginomai
John 1:15 "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."

John 1:27 'He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose."

John 1:30 "This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

The word translated as "preferred" is "ginomai".

let's try for a minute to divest ourselves of the influence of our preferred beliefs and see what John says standing alone in its own light.

The Greek word "ginomai" is a genitive case middle voice verb. Nobody debates that.

We must however ask ourselves, 'Is John speaking of preferred in the sense of Christ's having literally existed before himself; or only in the sense of Christ having been the one purposed beforehand to come, rather than John himself being that one?

The evidence as I see it is that John was dealing with those who were musing whether he (John) be that foretold Messiah.

So John has merely told them. 'No, I am not that one but this one I have found is that one and he was preferred (or foretold to come) long before I was appointed by the Holy Spirit to preach about him.'

Yes John acknowledges Jesus had a prior existence but that is not the focus of what he says. And he is not trying to outline Jesus as being God but doing as I pointed out; showing that he is not to be confused by his listeners to be that Messiah.

That would be keeping within John's frame of mind.

Why is understanding this important?

Because to the extent we step beyond the speaker's frame of mind we add our own thoughts to what he has said. And in so doing we become responsible to prove the truth of our addition to his thoughts. Therein we begin a whole line of added thinking to what the scriptures actually teach.

The perfect example of that continuation is the "I AM" interpretation.

These things were not being taught to men of high level education but to common men. They can only be properly represented by being kept simple as they are.

 

[Free]

John's entire gospel is based on the foundation that he lays in the first chapter, namely, that Jesus is God in human flesh. This is unmistakeably clear from verse 1 to verse 18, and it is necessary that this be kept in mind for understanding the rest of his gospel.

 

[Who Says]

John's entire gospel is based on the foundation that he lays in the first chapter, namely, that Jesus is God in human flesh. This is unmistakeably clear from verse 1 to verse 18, and it is necessary that this be kept in mind for understanding the rest of his gospel.

Literally God or the perfect Image of God that we also are divinely purposed to be?

You see, It is only the word "literal" we actually debate.

What you take literal and in my way of seeing it therefore makes it impossible for us to aspire to, I take as figurative and an Image that is not so far off from our reach and therefore has real value to us.

 

[Free]

Literally God or the perfect Image of God that we also are divinely purposed to be?

You see, It is only the word "literal" we actually debate.

What you take literal and in my way of seeing it therefore makes it impossible for us to aspire to, I take as figurative and an Image that is not so far off from our reach and therefore has real value to us.

Jesus is God, literally. We can never become divine in the sense Christ is; we cannot become gods, no creature can. Only God can be God.

 

[Sparkey]

John's understanding is beyond mine. Consider his words as he quotes the Prayer of our Lord and provider:

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ... And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

... And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." - John 17:6-9, 11, 13-15, 20-26 KJV

And later, John, the one to whom the Revelation of Jesus was given wrote:

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." - 1 John 3:1-3 KJV

I don't know who we will be but, as John says, "It doth not yet appear what we shall be," but we do know that, when He does appear, we shall be like him.
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." - 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 KJV