What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

JudaicChristian said:
Quoting from your post #48. It is my understanding that there was no expectation at all that any Messiah would be "immortal". It is my understanding that the most common understanding was that the Messiah was more generally viewed as a "regular" man who would deliver Israel from her exile and restore her to a better state. I suggest that there is little, if any evidence that Jews generally believed that the Messiah either came "from heaven" or was immortal.
Micah 5:2. "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

All of the people in heaven are called gods because they have life immortal. Yahshua was and is a god.
Click to expand...
I will have to think about this. For one thing, there is clear historical evidence that many Jews considered "ordinary men" to be Messiahs. The rabbi Akiba, sometime after 100 AD hailed Simeon ben Kosiba as Messiah and the latter was an "ordinary man". And I believe other Messianic claimants were also taken seriously. So I suggest that Jews certainly did not read the Micah 5:2 text in a way that meant an ordinary man, born into this world could not be Messiah.

Obviously the chief rabbi Akiba knew Micah 5:2, yet he still declared Simeon ben Kosiba to be Messiah knowing full well that the latter was born of a woman. I will see what I can find out about how a Jew of the first century might have read a text like Micah 5:2.
 
The reason why so many Christians are so firm about Trinitarianism, is because they believe that it is a divine truth from the Holy Spirit.
When people believe a doctrine is a divine truth from the Holy Spirit, then there is little you can say to convince them otherwise.

Like I always say, "Truth is made known by the reason of the facts."
Facts first, feelings last. When I prayed about it, it was revealed to me that I had deceived myself by my own feelings.
From now on its facts first.
Click to expand...
So, you received "truth from God" by prayer that you were being deceived by your feelings, and you accept that as actually being true. Yet, if a trinitarian prays and receives "truth from God" that the Trinity is true, they are wrong because they are being deceived by their feelings?

Do you see the problem there? If it is truly "facts first," then you ought to disregard the "revelation" from your prayer. You are using feelings to discount the use of feelings.

The Gnostic Christians believed in Sunday Sabbath, authority of the Pope, and Trinitarianism,
Click to expand...
Please provide evidence.

Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...

And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."
Click to expand...
And yet The Didache, a much earlier document (late first/early second century), states: "baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water" (Chapter 7)

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Just because Eusebius doesn't mention the trinitarian baptismal formula doesn't mean 1. that it wasn't in Matt 28:19, and 2. that it wasn't already accepted by the early church.

There is no mention of the word trinity in the entire Bible.
Click to expand...
An old argument which is irrelevant to the truth of the matter.

Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius were the students of the original disciples. They lived at the turn of the century, before and after 100 AD. They did not mention a trinity or give a description of a trinity in all their writings.

It was not until the second century AD that the idea of a trinity began to take shape in the Gnostic Christian community.
Click to expand...
And yet Polycarp mentions worshiping Christ. Ignatius, in his letter to the Ephesians, states "For Jesus Christ, our inseparable Life, is the mind of the Father," and:

7:2 There is one only physician, of flesh and of spirit, generate and ingenerate, God in man, true Life in death, Son of Mary and Son of God, first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians (Lightfoot translation)

In his letter to the Smyrneans: "I give glory to Jesus Christ, the God who has given you wisdom."

St. Ignatius of Antioch

It seems clear that prior to any real development in the doctrine of the Trinity, the idea that Jesus was God in the flesh was accepted within the early church. And, again, please provide evidence that it was the Gnostic "Christian" community that developed the doctrine.

That is what we find throughout the scriptures:

"Beside me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6.)

"I am God, and there is none else; there is no God beside me." (Isa. 45:5.)

"I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 46:9.)

"One God and Father of all, who is above all." (Eph. 4:6.)

"Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6.4.)
Click to expand...
All affirmations of the monotheistic God of Judaism and Christianity, which Trinitarians uphold.

"There is but one God, the Father, whom made all things, and us by Himself , and one lord Jesus Christ, by whom we are in. (1 Cor. 8:6.)
Click to expand...
What translation is this?

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Just as "from whom all things" implies that the Father is the Creator and not a creature, so "through whom are all things" implies that Christ was involved in the creative act and is not a creature.

"This is life eternal, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent." (John 17:3.)
Click to expand...
Notice that eternal life is not only connected with God but with Christ.

There is also a document about a Kabbalist who suggested the Godhead is triune.
Click to expand...
That there may be pagan or other beliefs which include a triune God in no way means that the Trinity is false.

Perhaps that is why Yahshua quoted this verse:
Mark 12:29.
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is [one / only.]
Click to expand...
This is a quite from Deut 6:4 which is a statement of monotheism, not of the inner workings or nature of God.
 
Claims that Didache was written before the 3rd century is pure speculation. The Didache is first mentioned by Eusebius (324)
Quote: "Let there be placed among the spurious works the Acts of Paul, the so-called Shepherd and the Apocalypse of Peter, and besides these the Epistle of Barnabas, and what are called the Teachings of the Apostles, and also the Apocalypse of John, if this be thought proper; for as I wrote before, some reject it, and others place it in the canon."
 
JudaicChristian said:
Claims that Didache was written before the 3rd century is pure speculation. The Didache is first mentioned by Eusebius (324)
Quote: "Let there be placed among the spurious works the Acts of Paul, the so-called Shepherd and the Apocalypse of Peter, and besides these the Epistle of Barnabas, and what are called the Teachings of the Apostles, and also the Apocalypse of John, if this be thought proper; for as I wrote before, some reject it, and others place it in the canon."
Click to expand...
I beg to differ:

"The earliest known reference to the Didache is by Clement of Alexandria. In his work, the Miscellanies (Gr. Stromata), written around the year A.D. 180 to 190, Clement refers to the Didache as Scripture, saying: “It is such a one that is by Scripture called a thief. For that reason it is said, ‘Son, do not be a liar; for falsehoods leads to theft.’†(Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, Bk. 1, Chap. 20; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Pg. 324.) This is a direct quotation from the first part of the Didache, often called “the Two Ways.†"

the Didache : The Didache

That link also gives strong reasons for an early date as well.

Again, just because a document isn't mentioned until a certain date does not mean that that document wasn't around prior to that, even by hundreds of years. Every source I check on the Didache dates it late first/early second century. And just because one person (or even several) considers the document spurious mean that it is or that all considered it as such.

"The Didache: Its Origin And Significance" by Chris Thomas

Early Christian Fathers | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

These sites also show why an early date is most probable.
 
The "Two Ways" is a Pre-Christian teaching in Judaism. (Also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.) Claiming that Clement of Alexandria quoted the Didache is an error.[/LIST]
Post Quote "The earliest known reference to the Didache is by Clement of Alexandria. In his work, the Miscellanies (Gr. Stromata), written around the year A.D. 180 to 190, Clement refers to the Didache as Scripture, saying: “It is such a one that is by Scripture called a thief. For that reason it is said, ‘Son, do not be a liar; for falsehoods leads to theft.’” (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, Bk. 1, Chap. 20; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Pg. 324.) This is a direct quotation from the first part of the Didache, often called “the Two Ways.” "
 
 
Free said:
[/SIZE]
I can show you the line in the Didache. I would appreciate it if you can show me where it is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls.


Why do you argue so much against the Trinity yet believe in polytheism?
Click to expand...
I do not believe in the dictionary polytheism. Only Yahwah is the all powerful creator. The Two Spirits (ways, paths, walk) symbolize Good and Evil. Psalm 1:1
[ BOOK I Psalms 1–41 ] Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way-s that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers,

Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you.

Proverbs 4:11
I instruct you in the way of wisdom and lead you along straight paths.

Proverbs 4:14
Do not set foot on the path of the wicked or walk in the way of evildoers.

Proverbs 8:20
I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice,

Proverbs 9:6
Leave your simple ways and you will live; walk in the way of insight.â€

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality.

Isaiah 26:8
Yes, LORD, walking in the way of your laws, we wait for you; your name and renown are the desire of our hearts.

There were more example but I did not feel any need for more.The Dead Sea Scrolls in English by G Vermes. Page 66, The community Rule (1QS) Quote: "And their struggle is fierce in all their arguments for they do not walk together."
 
JudaicChristian said:
I do not believe in the dictionary polytheism. Only Yahwah is the all powerful creator. The Two Spirits (ways, paths, walk) symbolize Good and Evil. Psalm 1:1
[ BOOK I Psalms 1–41 ] Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way-s that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers,

Psalm 32:8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you.

Proverbs 4:11
I instruct you in the way of wisdom and lead you along straight paths.

Proverbs 4:14
Do not set foot on the path of the wicked or walk in the way of evildoers.

Proverbs 8:20
I walk in the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice,

Proverbs 9:6
Leave your simple ways and you will live; walk in the way of insight.â€

Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality.

Isaiah 26:8
Yes, LORD, walking in the way of your laws, we wait for you; your name and renown are the desire of our hearts.

There were more example but I did not feel any need for more.The Dead Sea Scrolls in English by G Vermes. Page 66, The community Rule (1QS) Quote: "And their struggle is fierce in all their arguments for they do not walk together."
Click to expand...
By definition, polytheism is the belief in more than one god. Having one god greater, even if you call him "the all powerful creator," doesn't detract from the fact that you believe in polytheism.

And, again, I would appreciate it if you can show me where that exact sentence is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 
JudaicChristian said:
Better read this good the first time, because afterward I will have to delete the link. http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5455194086_aee5dda8ec_b.jpg
Click to expand...
I read it but I don't know what I'm supposed to find. With all due respect, I don't think you're understanding what has been going on here, both what I am asking and my line of reasoning.

"My child, be not a liar, for lying leads to theft," (The Didache, section 3)
~The Didache~

"On the other hand, therefore, he who appropriates what belongs to the barbarians, and vaunts it is his own, does wrong, increasing his own glory, and falsifying the truth. It is such an one that is by Scripture called a "thief." It is therefore said, "Son, be not a liar; for falsehood leads to theft."" (Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 1, Chapter 20)
Clement of Alexandria: Stromata, Book 1


When I first stated that Clement quoted directly from the Didache, you stated: "The "Two Ways" is a Pre-Christian teaching in Judaism. (Also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.) Claiming that Clement of Alexandria quoted the Didache is an error."

I asked you to show me where the bolded part of the quote by Clement is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. As you can see, I have shown that he did quote directly from the Didache, which proves your claim that the Didache was first quoted by Eusebius to be false. And since Clement wrote that book in AD 180-190, it proves that the Didache was around much earlier than you claim.

And that whole exercise was to prove that the quote from the Didache--"baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water"--was around much earlier than you claim, and could very well have been taken from Matt. 28:19.

So once again, if you wish to prove my argument false, I would appreciate it if you can show me where that exact sentence--"My child, be not a liar, for lying leads to theft"--is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 
We are not on the same page. Obviously the words "My child, be not a liar, for lying leads to theft," is not in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Im done. This thread can be deleted.
 
JudaicChristian said:
We are not on the same page. Obviously the words "My child, be not a liar, for lying leads to theft," is not in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Im done. This thread can be deleted.
Click to expand...
No response to my post? You didn't even address most of my post showing problems with the post in the link you first provided. There is much more that can yet be discussed. I don't understand why you want to cease this discussion.


And, no, this thread likely won't be deleted. It will remain open so others can join in the discussion and links to resources preserved.
 
Free said:
I beg to differ:

"The earliest known reference to the Didache is by Clement of Alexandria. In his work, the Miscellanies (Gr. Stromata), written around the year A.D. 180 to 190, Clement refers to the Didache as Scripture, saying: “It is such a one that is by Scripture called a thief. For that reason it is said, ‘Son, do not be a liar; for falsehoods leads to theft.’” (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, Bk. 1, Chap. 20; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Pg. 324.) This is a direct quotation from the first part of the Didache, often called “the Two Ways.” "

the Didache : The Didache

That link also gives strong reasons for an early date as well.

Again, just because a document isn't mentioned until a certain date does not mean that that document wasn't around prior to that, even by hundreds of years. Every source I check on the Didache dates it late first/early second century. And just because one person (or even several) considers the document spurious mean that it is or that all considered it as such.

"The Didache: Its Origin And Significance" by Chris Thomas

Early Christian Fathers | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

These sites also show why an early date is most probable.
Click to expand...
Your sources are pure speculation on Clement of Alexandria. Quote of one source: "The terminus ad quem is to be set by the quotations from the Teaching in a Syrian church order called the Didascalia. This dates from the early third century.
That the Didache comes from Alexandria464464The Egyptian origin of the Didache was held by Byrennios, Zahn, and Harnack. is suggested by several factors. The "Two Ways" was in circulation there, for the Letter of Barnabas and the Apostolic Church Order come from that locality. It is possible, but not certain, that Clement of Alexandria knew our Didache."
If something in the writing dates from the 3rd century, then it can not be a 2nd century writing. Your sources are speculations. The Didache is established in the 3rd century. THE TWO WAYS IS A PRECHRISTIAN TEACHING.
 
JudaicChristian said:
Your sources are pure speculation on Clement of Alexandria. Quote of one source: "The terminus ad quem is to be set by the quotations from the Teaching in a Syrian church order called the Didascalia. This dates from the early third century.
That the Didache comes from Alexandria464464The Egyptian origin of the Didache was held by Byrennios, Zahn, and Harnack. is suggested by several factors. The "Two Ways" was in circulation there, for the Letter of Barnabas and the Apostolic Church Order come from that locality. It is possible, but not certain, that Clement of Alexandria knew our Didache."
If something in the writing dates from the 3rd century, then it can not be a 2nd century writing. Your sources are speculations. The Didache is established in the 3rd century. THE TWO WAYS IS A PRECHRISTIAN TEACHING.
Click to expand...

Hello,

Trinity was never taught by Jesus or the Apostles. It is a doctrine created because the philosophers in the 3rd century were arguing that Christianity was a polytheist religion as Christians believed in three Gods, The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Because they needed to silence the philosophers, the leaders of the Christian world came up with the idea that there is only one person with three different "manifestations" but one substance.

That doctrine was advanced and finally accepted by the Council of Nicea called by Constantine who, by the way, was not even a Christian.
However, even after this had been forcibly agreed (the emperor forced them to agree, as there were many bishops that didn't accepted it), the doctrine took several hundred years to be universally accepted.

Nevertheless, you don't need to take my word for that. Consider the scriptures below carefully:


Matt 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In the above passage, Jesus (God the Son) asks Eli (God the Father) why has He abandoned Him?
If they were one and the same person in substance, it would NOT make any sense at all asking such a question: How can one individual being abandon himself? If it were possible for you to abandon yourself, you would cease to exist? It is impossible for a person to abandon him/herself. It doesn't make any sense at all. Therefore, there is a God, the Father and another God the Son. In the scripture it is clear that the Father has abandoned the Son, if only for a brief moment. But, for all of us, including the Son, there is ONLY one Father, God the Father.

(Why God abandoned Jesus at that moment is a subject for another discussion. It suffices to say that since Jesus had taken all the sins of mankind over Himself and was being punished for it, the Spirit of God could not be with Him as God doesn't abide with sin.)

Also:
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Gen 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

In both passages above it is clear that there are more than one person. God the Father and God the Son. Otherwise why would He say "let us make" and "has become as one of us?" There was more than one divine individual there. Otherwise He would be talking to Himself.


See also:
Psalms 82:6,8

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

In this case it is very clear there are two persons being referred to here. Verse 6 says that we are children of the most high God.
Verse 8, on the other hand, tells God to arise and judge because He will inherit all nations.

Well, if God made everything, including the nations, why someone would praise Him saying that He shall inherit all nations since He is already the owner of all nations and can do whatever He well please with them?

The only possible conclusion is that verse 6 refers to the same "Eli" to which Jesus talks in Matt 27:46, or the Most High God, the Father. Whereas in verse 8, it refers to the God that would arise from the dead and inherit all that the Father has (all nations), God the Son.

Again clearly, two different persons. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for the Psalmist to say that the God that made everything will inherit everything He, Himself made. One can only inherit something if that person doesn't have it already.

As you can see the trinity theory is clearly at odds with the scriptures. Without even mentioning that the word trinity is not biblical.

So, as the scriptures don't fail, they need to agree with each other. Therefore, when the Bible says that God the Son is ONE with God the Father, it, by necessity, means only one in PURPOSE, otherwise it would render the Bible contradictory because as you can see above, it is clear there are more than one divine person.

Plus, the New Testament says that those the overcome, will be ONE with Christ and the Father. If the theory of trinity was true, than, all the faithful would become only one big God. See what I mean?


have a great day,
mamre
 
Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
The correct Hebrew word is "we," not "let us." It is known as the "Royal We." (imperfect)
For the English language it should have been translated as "I.":study
 
All of the people in heaven are called gods because they have life immortal. We are also called gods based upon the promise of a life immortal.:study
 
I believe in the trinity, but I don't literally think that the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit are all the same person. I think of it like our government. We have many people in our government, but its still one government. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Spirit is the Spirit. In the Bible it says that not even the Son knows when he will return. But if, the Son is the Father, how can the Father know something without the Son knowing??? I can see why there is some confusion about this.
 
Glowstique said:
I believe in the trinity, but I don't literally think that the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit are all the same person. I think of it like our government. We have many people in our government, but its still one government. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Spirit is the Spirit. In the Bible it says that not even the Son knows when he will return. But if, the Son is the Father, how can the Father know something without the Son knowing??? I can see why there is some confusion about this.
Click to expand...
Non-Trinitarians also believe in the three, but with a different understanding. The term Holy Spirit is a name title for Yahwah, the only true Almighty God and Creator. Yahwah is a Holy Spirit, and is the Holy Spirit. In Judaism this has always been true. It was the Catholics who invented the Trinity doctrine and claimed the Holy Spirit is a third person. There are many gods, real or imagined. It is presumed that the people in heaven are all created beings without parents. The truth is that we just do not know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top