True Acts 2:38 Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation

[Eventide]

The rapture of the church of God is a biblical certainty, not some theory. Its basis is 1 Thess 4, not Matthew 24.

People often debate the timing of the rapture which is fine, but to call the rapture of the church of God a theory is to dismiss the word of God in 1Thess 4 as a theory, which it is not, but once again, a biblical certainty.

I assume these are the verses you are referring to.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (I Thess. 4:13-18 ESV)
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There's a section there that many people seem to overlook. Look again at the last part of verse 16 and the first part of verse 17.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them

​

While everybody is concentrating on what these verses say about those who are still alive, they seem to forget that this "rapture" follows a resurrection. The rapture cannot, therefore, happen until after the resurrection of the dead, and we are told elsewhere when that will be.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.(Rev. 20:4-5 ESV)

​

Here we are told clearly that the first resurrection dose not take place until after the tribulation. If another resurrection preceded a pre-tribulation rapture, then the one spoken of in Rev. 20 wouldn't be the first.

I'm well aware of the fact that the rapture of the church follows the resurrection of the dead in Christ first... and it's specifically written to the church of God.

I'm also aware of the fact that the church of God is the future bride of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the marriage of the Lamb to His wife takes place in heaven according to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 also details the coming of Christ in the latter portion of that chapter.

How did the church get there before the Lord's coming?

We know that the church of God collectively (the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain) will meet The Lord in the air... Although not very much thought goes into where we go after that.

Can you think of any stories which might tell us where the church goes after it meets The Lord in the air ?

I can, it's written in the ancient text of the OT. The story even mentions when the bride of Christ meets The Lord...hence my name.. In the Eventide.

 

[TOG]

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them

Hi TOG and welcome to CF.net.

Thank you.

Have you considered that these verses are speaking of those dead and alive of the Church; those in Christ? I do not know how you believe yet, but to me when we first read of Jesus in Heaven in Revelation Chapter Four even prior to the tribulation we see saints with Him. It's good to have you among us in fellowship in Jesus' name.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that I Thess. 4 and Rev. 20 are referring to resurrections of two different groups? It seems logical to me to assume that "those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God" (Rev. 20:4) would be counted among "the dead in Christ" (I Thess. 4:16). I believe it's the same group of people. Besides, saying that it's two different groups doesn't change the fact that the Rev. 20 resurrection, which takes place after the tribulation, is called "the first resurrection".

Concerning Rev. 4, the only ones mentioned there besides John, the angel talking to him and God are 24 elders and 4 living creatures. No evidence of millions of Christians that had been raptured. In fact, since we are not given any more information about them, we don't even know if the 24 elders were human.

I do not know how you believe yet

Ah... Yes... I probably should post something about that in the new members section to give people fair warning.

 

[Brother Mike]

Here we are told clearly that the first resurrection dose not take place until after the tribulation.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is clear proof tog you need to read more carefully. There is nothing here about the resurrection needing to take place after the tribulation. In fact there is no resurrection event mentioned after the tribulation but the 2nd.

There were thrones and judgment was given to them. We are not told who is judging on the thrones, but more than likely it will be us with the 24.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first Resurrection are the righteous dead.

1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus is the firstfruit of those risen from the dead. Jesus was first.

Next, every man in Order.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Man follow this order. Christ firstfruits (The ones from the vine) then those that are his at his coming.

We have those that are Christs firstfruits then we have those that are his through tribulation at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


The Kingdom is set up for 1,000 years. After the 2nd resurrection of those not His firstfruit or the Lords for Judgment. That is the 2nd death.

Rev 20:6[/B] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So we are already with him as Kings and Priest. His firtfruits, the Church.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

All the saints that have been redeemed by the blood are here as Kings and Priest. We leave heaven and reign on earth.

All those that have been redeemed by the blood from all over the World shall be as kings and priest, are already with him. The first resurrection are those that are the firstfuit of the anointed one, following those that are his. The first resurrection are those that belong to the Lord, the 2nd are those that were not his.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

These are the ones that kept the commandments and the faith of Jesus. We are saved by grace through faith, we are not saved by keeping commandments and having the faith of Jesus. We have faith in Jesus as Lord. These are those that are his, in their order.

Mike.

 

[Eugene]

Concerning Rev. 4, the only ones mentioned there besides John, the angel talking to him and God are 24 elders and 4 living creatures. No evidence of millions of Christians that had been raptured. In fact, since we are not given any more information about them, we don't even know if the 24 elders were human.

Hi again and thanks for your reply. Here's my take: Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb . . 9 . . you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (actually over the earth; they are in heaven) the earth. Now this was just a short answer, and much more takes place here.

 

[TOG]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is clear proof tog you need to read more carefully. There is nothing here about the resurrection needing to take place after the tribulation. In fact there is no resurrection event mentioned after the tribulation but the 2nd.

I think you should read more carefully. The verses you quoted mention worshipping the beast and his image and recieving his mark on their foreheads. When do these things take place? Is it not during the great tribulation? If the resurrection takes place after events that occure during the tribulation, then it cannot occur before the tribulation.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Man follow this order. Christ firstfruits (The ones from the vine) then those that are his at his coming. We have those that are Christs firstfruits then we have those that are his through tribulation at his coming.

Where do you see "Christs firstfruits" in that verse? It says "... Christ the firstfruits", not "... Christ, then the firstfruits". Christ is the firstfruits. There are not 3, but 2 resurrections mentioned in I Cor. 15:23

1. Christ (who is) the firstfruits
2. They that are Christ's at his coming
​

No mention of any extra resurrection for "Christ's firstfruits" between those two.

 

[TOG]

Concerning Rev. 4, the only ones mentioned there besides John, the angel talking to him and God are 24 elders and 4 living creatures. No evidence of millions of Christians that had been raptured. In fact, since we are not given any more information about them, we don't even know if the 24 elders were human.

Hi again and thanks for your reply. Here's my take: Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb . . 9 . . you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (actually over the earth; they are in heaven) the earth. Now this was just a short answer, and much more takes place here.

I stand corrected. I must have missed that when giving it a quick read before replying. The words "you... have redeemed us" would definitely indicate that they are human and not angels.

 

[TOG]

Can you think of any stories which might tell us where the church goes after it meets The Lord in the air ? I can, it's written in the ancient text of the OT. The story even mentions when the bride of Christ meets The Lord...hence my name.. In the Eventide.

I don't know what story you're talking about, but I believe we will be here on earth for 1000 years after the Lord returns and we meet him in the air.

 

[Destructus86]

There's no mistranslating it or lack of understanding. It clearly and bluntly says Jesus comes after the tribulation and we go home. You can try to shoehorn other scriptures into making it sound like it's pre-trib...but the bible is pretty clear it's post trib.

Yes and I meant just what I said.


You have to remember the pre-trib view also finds Jesus coming in the clouds before tribulation, not just coming to earth after the 6th, 7th seal and 7th trumpet. It's not as clear as you think it is. If it were clear, this would not be page 4 of this thread and hundreds of other threads concerning this subject. The pre-trib view finds two places Jesus comes. One to get his Church and one after Tribulation. The post trib view just finds one time. It should seem simple, but it's not that simple.

Mike.

The problem is...that when we don't like what we read we tend to twist the scipture to make it sound like what we want it to sound like for ourselves. There's a reason the Christians in ancient time did not support a Pre-trib rapture. Pre-trib rapture really didn't come around significantly until the 1800's. (there are a handful of very questionaly and mostly disproved documents earlier) Of course with that came lots of book sales.

hmmmm...

 

[Destructus86]

And that's absolutely the case... If you're an Israelite.

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

That even takes place AFTER the tribulation if you read the connected scriptures to it.

Pre-Trib was created from very questional sources, it doesn't have it's origin in the bible but in man instead.

 

[Destructus86]

Check this out
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/tribulation.html

I know we all want to escape the bad stuff that will happen. But never in the history of the bible has that ever been the case for us as Christians.

 

[Destructus86]

John highlights the idea that Christians are preserved by God through tribulation rather than removed:

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.[28]
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This passage is one of the most blunt verses,[original research?] showing that Jesus himself did not want the Christians taken out of the world in order to protect them from evil but had the intention of preservation in the midst of it. This is a place where pre-tribulationism lacks linguistic favor because this verse and Revelation 3:10 are the only places where the exact phrase tereo ek translated from Greek into keep from are found and that by the same author, the disciple John.[29]



This idea of being PERSERVED during times of trouble, rather than taking out of is a common theme through out the entire bible

 

[Brother Mike]

I think you should read more carefully. The verses you quoted mention worshipping the beast and his image and recieving his mark on their foreheads. When do these things take place? Is it not during the great tribulation? If the resurrection takes place after events that occure during the tribulation, then it cannot occur before the tribulation.

OK, lets not assume. That is who I learn and I change my thinking. I go into something pretending I am looking at it for the first time. We have resurrection 1 and and we resurrection number 2. Where so these take place at? '

I already gave you Rev 5, that shows the redeemed of God by the Blood of the lamb waiting to return to earth to rule as Kings and priest.

Already, we have all believers in Heaven, or some of them at least. We don't have a resurrection event that put them in heaven. We don't have any resurrection event in Rev but the 2nd one. We have to assume some things. We know believers that are going to rule as Kings and priest are in heaven in Rev 5, they have been redeemed of God all over the Earth.

This a pre-trib Rapture? Just believers that have already died long before? We don't know but it could be evidence. This is how I change my views or make what I believe Stronger. I build evidence in the Word and examine the path of least resistance. I don't care if there is pre or post trib. Don't matter to me, I just want the right one. Either way, I have the victory no matter what. Post and Pre trib though makes the most sense to me. All this nonsense about no Jews and it's all past away don't make sense. I just heard on TBN not long ago that the Tribulation is already started. That don't make no sense!!!!
I want things that make sense!!!!

We have believers in Heaven Rev 5.

Is it not during the great tribulation? If the resurrection takes place after events that occure during the tribulation, then it cannot occur before the tribulation.

If you assume this, then your right. However, Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection. The first resurrection was those that are the Lords. Now that can happen before tribulation, today, or after, but it does not have to just be one time only resurrection. Just like the 2nd death doest not have to have anyone die at one certain time. It included the whole group.

So, that resurrection hinges on this one scripture JBL and I went round and round on. There is no first resurrection mentioned in Rev, that has always been a problem for post trib, so it just has to be assumed. The body gets pulled back to our spirit at some point during or after tribulation. Assuming is not always bad though, as the 144,000 just show up at the throne room of God, we assume there was some rapture involved as they just did not walk to the throne room, even though no rapture up is mentioned.

These are some of the issues with Rev, and end time stuff. There is lots of connecting and assuming. Not bad on either side, but what makes the most sense?

Where do you see "Christs firstfruits" in that verse? It says "... Christ the firstfruits", not "... Christ, then the firstfruits". Christ is the firstfruits. There are not 3, but 2 resurrections mentioned in I Cor. 15:23

1. Christ (who is) the firstfruits
2. They that are Christ's at his coming

No mention of any extra resurrection for "Christ's firstfruits" between those two.

Quick reply to this message

This is our verse that changes a pre or post trib. Paul never talks about Tribulation here, or end time. So Paul does not help with a time here.

Rom_16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Christ has firstfruits that are His.......

No mention of any extra resurrection for "Christ's firstfruits" between those two.

That is depending on how you read the verse. This verse is very key to both positions. You learn where your root battle scriptures are, then you can cut to the chase faster.

Post Trib finds two......................... For both sides pre and post the resurrection does not have to be boxed in to be the same time. During at some point the first resurrected belong to Jesus Christ.

Pre Trib finds two, but Jesus is mentioned first and the Anointed first fruit or Christ firstfruit.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (The anointed one "Christ" is the Firstfruit of being raised from the dead.)

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (Paul tells us all as Adam die but in Christ shall be made alive. Paul is talking about man now in Christ)

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Still talking about man in Christ, the Lord's anointed or firstfruits. Paul tells us the Order of those in Christ, as Christ has already been established as being the first. It's the Anointed ones fristfruits, then follow those that are his. The anointed Church first, then those that are His at his coming.)

Paul is not mentioning Jesus again, He tells us As Adam, all die and IN Christ which was the first of the dead, man also will be raised. Then Paul gives the order of man after that.
Christ is the firstfruit of those that died (Slept) so if there is a first, then the 2nd, 3rd, and so on down the line must follow after.........

The Word "THE" is not there, but added. We know Christ had firstfruits through him, Christ being the first. So the Greek reads Christs, Firstfruits, or the anointed firstfruits.

To me that makes more sense, because Paul tells us Jesus is first, then tells us as Adam died, those in Christ will be made alive. Then Paul gives the Order of those that were made alive in Christ who was first. Jesus Christ was not made alive by the work he did, it's because of the Work He did, and God raised him from the dead that we in him also are raised from the dead.


for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

In Christ are the firstfruits of Christ, then those that are his left in tribulation at his coming.
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I know we all want to escape the bad stuff that will happen. But never in the history of the bible has that ever been the case for us as Christians.

It has nothing to do with escaping anything. There are 6 types here to deal with.

1) those that believe all of it has passed away, and there is no such thing as Jewish people anymore

2) Those that stay here and placed somewhere in safety during the whole thing.

3) Those that End time stuff make scared and so a Pre-trib belief sounds fine with them. The belief comes from fear of things to come.

4) Those that must stay here to be tested by Satan a disobedient angel whom we are suppose to judge the angels.

5) Those that stay here, lock and load and kick devil butt with the 144,000

6) Those that believe there is no way for Satan to operate at full power with the anointed Church in the way.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.[28]

Jesus is praying for the ones given personally, and guess what? Peter and the bunch is not here anymore. His prayer was to keep them alive to finish their course, so that we through their word would also believe. Read all the verses above and below.

This idea of being PERSERVED during times of trouble, rather than taking out of is a common theme through out the entire bible

This is true, Noah and His family where kept out of the water by a boat. However, the scripture below tells us how in Matt 24 people are kept safe. One is taken, one is left. The end is God dealing with Israel, as the Gentiles took the promise of the Lord Jesus, and Israel rejected. That is why we are removed, because God has to deal with Israel and keep his promise to graft them back. This is why 144,000 Jewish people get anointed and sealed, We are not even mentioned because we have to get out of the way.

Mike.

 

[reba]

This is true, Noah and His family where kept out of the water by a boat. However, the scripture below tells us how in Matt 24 people are kept safe. One is taken, one is left. The end is God dealing with Israel, as the Gentiles took the promise of the Lord Jesus, and Israel rejected. That is why we are removed, because God has to deal with Israel and keep his promise to graft them back. This is why 144,000 Jewish people get anointed and sealed, We are not even mentioned because we have to get out of the way.

Mike.

So the Body of Christ has to get out of the way? Removed? Do not the Scriptures say we are all one in Him?

 

[turnorburn]

Weird! Everyone no matter where I've asked has failed to answer my question "The Mark" before or after the rapture, everyone consists of those that adhere to the rapture theory..

tob

 

[Brother Mike]

So the Body of Christ has to get out of the way? Removed? Do not the Scriptures say we are all one in Him?

Well, the He that must be taken out of the way is the same He that is defined . It starts out .......

Paul says now you know, what is keeping iniquity down, or in check so to speak. Paul just told us above as the whole article is about

YLT:
2Th 2:1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
KJV......
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The Greek Article is about two things. The Lord Jesus Christ, and his presence with us. Paul then describes what comes first.

YLT:
2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder --till he may be out of the way,

So, the one keeping iniquity from running full blast, and holding down the full Demonic power with Grace in the way, as where sin abounds, grace abounds more. Could not be the Holy Spirit as He is not mentioned in the Greek Article, Can't be the Church exactly as they are the effect of the main article. So the He in the way is Jesus.

So, as in the main article Jesus takes us with him out of the way. No more anointed Church, no more authority over Satan, no more greater in us than He that is in the World, no more anointed prayers, Nothing. Satan can now operate in full power.

Those that are left, not hearing the Gospel we brought to the World will be here.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They are not saved, do not escape the Wraith of God, we do, by the gathering unto him so Satan can operate without the Anointed church in the way. The gates of Hell can't stand against the Church, so the Church has to be removed by Jesus taking His body out of the way. It's not about Satan's wrath, it's God and those here on Earth. We are already right with God, and don't have to bother with a disobedient angel.

Only with Jesus and the body out of the way, can the Antichrist be reveled. Paul says this up top.

There has to be a falling away first, before the Son of perdition is revealed. Something has to be taken out of the way first.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Here is where Post tribbers shy away from Greek. We only use the Greek if it benefits us, always. Falling away or apostasia Means to depart from something, leave something. It's a Female noun so it can't define what it's departing from. We do all know that, right?

If its not defined by the Male noun, then it has to be define in the article itself.

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Here it is used only one other time, and Moses is the defining Male noun to show what Apostasia departs from.

In the case of Thess, the departing is us being gathered to Jesus.

If we take the English word Apostasy, that is a verb, or action such as turning away from what is true.

If the Holy Spirit meant the church was going to fall away in sin, then Paul would have mentioned that, but never did and it would have to be a Greek Verb.....................

Remember, we only get confused on language if it hurts our doctrine. Otherwise we are quick to quote Greek and Hebrew at each other.

par-ap-ip'-to
From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.

Is the Greek Verb that the Holy Spirit would have used if Falling away meant the church going astray. Paul never mentioned the church falling away, but He did mention our departure to the Lord Jesus, before the Antichrist is reveled and that we must be moved out of the way as the body of Christ so that the Anointed church and all the word and grace is out of the way so Satan can operate.

That was mentioned.

Mike.

 

[reba]

:bicker:bicker :angel :bicker:bicker​

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Question what do ya think, Does He expect His body to fail at His last request? I don't think so..

 

[JLB]

Well, the He that must be taken out of the way is the same He that is defined . It starts out .......

Whoever the restrainer is, will be taken out of the way.

Why does taken out of the way have to mean Raptured to heaven?

That is exactly the opposite of what Paul just got through saying.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [Resurrection and Rapture] we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


No one is getting resurrected until the man of sin, the son of perdition goes to the Temple and proclaims himself as God.

Plain as day and can not be refuted!


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

No one is getting resurrected until the man of sin, the son of perdition goes to the Temple and proclaims himself as God.

Plain as day and can not be refuted!

I think I have already gone over this with you. No, I am sure I already went over this with you.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Except is two Greek words put together.

If not, that is unless....... something

This is why the translators added................... "That day shall not come unless."

First (Adverb) means chiefly first. First in a place of order. (Proton)

So, Falling away, must come before the son of perdition is revealed.

Don't take my word for it, look em up yourself. If your defending a Doctrine, be prepared for counter arguments, and anticipate what is already going to be said. If your doctrine holds water your fine, if not then it's time to take a look at things once again. This falling away must take place first though, which the writers added the Words in an attempt to show that.

This also explains who that restrainer is........... (The Greek denotes more to dampen, or hold down than outright restraint) It leaves no question as that is what the Whole chapter is about. It tells us why iniquity is held at bay where grace abounds more as we are still the light of this World. It's answers everything perfectly but what you want want to believe about a Post Trib rapture.

Once you take the light out of the World, nothing stops Satan. If Satan could, he would be reigning fire down now on everyone, but He can't. The greater one is in all of us, we need to scoot out of the devils way. It's not complicated, and not my fault if someone wants to believe in some post trib, or that it's all passed away already. I did not write the Word.

Mike.

 

[Eventide]

Can you think of any stories which might tell us where the church goes after it meets The Lord in the air ? I can, it's written in the ancient text of the OT. The story even mentions when the bride of Christ meets The Lord...hence my name.. In the Eventide.

I don't know what story you're talking about, but I believe we will be here on earth for 1000 years after the Lord returns and we meet him in the air.

It's Genesis 24 and the story about Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac.

It's important to note the direction which Rebekah is journeying, and that is toward Isaac.

When they meet (at the eventide), Isaac takes her into his mother's tent.

This simply affirms that the marriage of the Lamb is in heaven just as Rev 19 says.

So how did the church get to heaven in Rev 19 before the coming of The Lord ?

Also, what makes people believe that we're meeting The Lord in the air and then coming back to earth?

 

[Eventide]

And that's absolutely the case... If you're an Israelite.

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

That even takes place AFTER the tribulation if you read the connected scriptures to it.

Pre-Trib was created from very questional sources, it doesn't have it's origin in the bible but in man instead.

Please show us what you're talking about here, how that this takes place after the tribulation and how you are coming up with that.