True Acts 2:38 Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation

[JLB]

We need to be LOOKING UP, and watching, for NOTHING is to come before HE comes for us.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

If Jesus came before the man of sin, then who would be deceived by the false Christ, after every eye sees Him when He comes in all of His glory.

Who in the world would be deceived, having seen the The true Christ?

Falling away is a simple definition that refers to a religious falling away from a faith or belief.


Webster -
Definition of APOSTASY

1: renunciation of a religious faith

2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection


Everyone knows what the word means.

Jesus will return once at the end of the age, not 7 years before the end of the age.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


He will raise us up on the last Day, not 7 years before the last Day.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

A departure from what? I can't just dismiss the clear definition of the word. Because a translation says "departure" the Greek says what it says actually in the Gk interlinear it says ( from-standing) the opposite of (standing).

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Strongs:
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

NAsec
apostasia; from G868; defection, revolt: - apostasy (1), forsake (1).

Deborah, All I can do is give you the words that Apostasia was made from. Paul never mentioned any mass deflection from the truth, not one time. We don't build a doctrine on one scripture anyway as no scripture is of private interpretation.

Apostasia is a very old Greek Word that is found only in the bible. We have one other use for it, and they departed from Moses and His teachings. All the Greek concordances about the bible are just dictionaries where the writers do their best to give definitions to the Words to the best of their knowledge. So you get their definition and understanding for words that are not found anywhere else in in other writing.

Strongs gives it's definition then puts the translated word in () Falling from the state.

Words in all the Greek dictionaries for the Bible have what the writers felt are the best use for them..........

Theos........... GOD.

Strongs:
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

James Strong said God means a deity of uncertain affinity.

Thayer, being Methodist takes the definition out of the Book of Discipline.

theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

Point 1 in Thayer is how the Word was used. Point two is what is the possible meaning.

2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

Trinity, Trinity, Trinity.......... That is God. Right out of the book of discipline. James Strong thought the idea of Trinity was false, so it's not included in his definition.

Now, I gave you the two words it was made from. There is no deflection from truth in there, no apostasy, NOTHING!!!! It's not in divorce, it's not in separate from. There are better Greek words to describe a apostasy other than Apostasia.

In fact, the Word is so Old, they still wonder if it's even a Female noun. All we have is what the Word was made from and their definitions.

Apostasia: Rebellion Or Rapture?

Q. On one hand I read where the meaning of the word “apostasia” has to do with people in the church “falling away” from the faith. On the other hand, I read where the same word means more of a “departure” from this earth as in “The Rapture.” The second argument seems very convincing and yet, in Revelation we read about how small and weak the Church of Philadelphia is in comparison to the “Luke warm” church of Laodicea. Which is it? What does apostasia really mean?

A. The watershed event that prompted the change in the accepted meaning of the Greek word apostasia in 2 Thes. 2:3 was the publication of the King James Bible in 1611 where it’s translated falling away. Prior to that it was almost always translated departure. There is still disagreement among scholars as the to word’s proper meaning and even its etymology (origin). Some, like E.W.Bullinger, say it’s a compound of apo and stasia and means a separation away from. Others, like the Strong’s Concordance, say it’s the feminine form of apostasion, which means divorce, both of which are derived from aphistemi which is most often translated depart. The question that to me remains unanswered is whether it refers to a physical departure, such as the rapture would be, or whether its an intellectual or spiritual departure, such as our understanding of apostasy would indicate.

But to me it’s all semantics. Whether you think the word points to the rapture or a falling away from the gospel doesn’t change the fact that 2 Thes. 2 teaches a pre-trib rapture. In fact the stated purpose of the letter, which was to refute a forgery, requires that Paul had previously taught the believers in Thessalonica that the rapture would precede the end time judgments. You can read my study on 2 Thessalonians for more detail.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/apostasy-rebellion-or-rapture/


You can make the word mean whatever you want. It was always translated departure as nothing in it's compounds or roots meant falling away from the truth. If you want a Post trib, then you add that into the compound of how the word was made. You just have to add that in there based on the use it had for (Forsaking) Moses teaching. That is where they derived it's definition because that is How it was used once in the bible.

I will stick with what the Word was made from, and take the definitions from there without adding any other meaning. If Paul meant the Church would apostisze then Paul would have mentioned it somewhere else. Paul never spoke that way about the Church, but spoke only positive things. Said things like let it not be named among you, We are not weary of Satan's devices, Until we all come together in the knowledge of the truth. Paul was never saying in any place the Church would fail......... NOT ONE TIME!!!



Mike.

 

[turnorburn]

Thanks for that explanation JLB and its kind of what i thought. Maybe then this thread will go in with the other dead threads..

tob

 

[Deborah13]

I will stick with what the Word was made from, and take the definitions from there without adding any other meaning. If Paul meant the Church would apostisze then Paul would have mentioned it somewhere else. Paul never spoke that way about the Church, but spoke only positive things. Said things like let it not be named among you, We are not weary of Satan's devices, Until we all come together in the knowledge of the truth. Paul was never saying in any place the Church would fail......... NOT ONE TIME!!!

There you go again, I feel sometimes you are just playing the opposing side to see what comes out of it.

I have not heard ANYONE say that the body of Christ will fail!! That is just utterly ridiculous, that can't happen.

Oh, wait a minute, are you OSAS? Not Calvinist, that's not what I am referring to.
If so, I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[reba]

There you go again, I feel sometimes you are just playing the opposing side to see what comes out of it.

NO he wouldn't do that! :toofunny

 

[Brother Mike]

Oh, wait a minute, are you OSAS? Not Calvinist, that's not what I am referring to.
If so, I can understand where you are coming from.

Not Calvinist, Not OSAS.

I grew up Baptist, with Calvinism, and OSAS. Both Baptist Doctrines. Grandma was Methodist, and Nazarene.
I never lived for God, never seen the power of God, never felt like praying to God would make a hill of beans anyway. After all, God is mysterious in all his ways. Who knows what God wants to do? So, I never took an interest in God, because God did not seem to care or do much of anything.

Later on............. I got in trouble, Lost my marriage, thrown in Prison. I decided that It best be Christian anyway because hell would just really suck. I did have enough in me to believe in hell, and my life was so messed up.

While in prison I saw the power of God for the first time in my life. God actually did answer prayers. Now who would have known? So, I wanted to find out more about God, I also made a promise to God when I got saved because I did not know any different.

If I see it in your Word God, I will just believe that, and not anything else going on around me. I figured that would make him happy as I could not figure out anything else to make God happy.

So, I did not know the difference between OT or NT, If God said it, it was good enough for me. If keeping the tithe is stealing, then I tithe, I knew nothing about some law but that I was not under it. I did not figure God changed his view on Stealing though. Some believe He did.

Time passed......... I got stronger in the Word. I don't care what doctrine it is, but it has to perfectly line up and make sense, whatever the doctrine. That is my Word rules, despite what I thought or wanted to believe.


So, I was Post trib, but after seeing the power of the Holy Spirit........... having one man yelling at me that you can't cast me out, you can't cast me out. I realized that it can't be possible the Anointed body of Christ be left on earth and the devil even stand a chance. The gates of Hell will never prevail. That caused me to go back and take a look again. I had to add Jesus coming twice now in the end. I was not sure how to do that if it was even there. After all, Paul said that there must be an Apostasy first, then the AC revealed.

I have realized that even if the Word meant Apostasy, then the rest of what Paul said did not make sense. Now you know Paul said what withholds............ You don't know if you mistranslates that one word to mean the English Apostasy. Keep it with the correct definition............ Depart from a standing of something.

The Body of Christ will not fail. We preach the gospel all over the World, then the end comes. No failure there, those that did not obey the truth will face the Wrath of God.

That is not the only scripture though to prove some pre-trib. There are other scriptures that the post trib position take and change from what I see.

Changes:
1) If you translate the Word Apostasia to mean a departure from something, or a revolt, separation from a previous standing...... Then you have pre-trib Rapture.............. Keeping it English then you have a Post trib rapture.

Resurrection:
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, But every man in his own order: Christ, firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:20-23)

If you translate this as it was written without the extra "the" and the period it means Pre-trib Rapture. Those in Christ shall be made alive in this order, The anointed firstfruits, then those that are his at his coming. Those In Christ and anointed, then those after, out of tribulation. The ones that belong to God that made it through.

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 Jews that are God's and the Lamb go after during tribulation. Those that are Christ's afterward. We are in Christ and the Jews will not beat us, but the first will be last and the last will be first. The Church first.

If you read it like this.......

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ (Jesus) first from the dead, then everyone else after............

Then you leave out the previous verse about Those "IN" Christ, and those in Christ the order they follow. You also prove a Post-trib. It is Jesus first, then everyone else, not the fruit the Anointed Jesus (Christ) produced first....... The Word "the" is added by the translators.

Jesus comes twice? 1 time?

Two events mentioned................ One immediately after tribulation, where we can time the exact Hour down to the 1/2 hour as Jesus comes after the 6th and 7th seal and 7th angelic trumpet. The 7th seal brings 1/2 hour of complete silence on the earth and then He comes, where people are hiding from the face of the Lamb, knowing it's judgment time.

The other time, we don't know the day or hour............... Jesus said some will not know their Lord is coming. Nobody is going to be confused after Tribulation. They hide from him because they know what Happens with the sun, moon and stars change with 1/2 hour of silence. They are hiding from him.

This other time, it's sudden and quick and only for those that call him Lord. Not those that keep the Sabbath.


At time of tribulation:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What happens at the start of tribulation where we are delivered.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We have those in Christ first, a resurrection event at the start of Tribulation, not after.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

Paul would have mentioned it somewhere else.

OK, you and @JLB say, that Matthew 24 and Daniel 70th week are referring to the man of sin (anti-Christ) in Revelation.
What does Jesus say. Does He say anything about anyone being removed from the earth during this time? I think His words are "Flee to the mountains!"

I must say that even though I don't agree with @JLB that this scripture is still a future event, I respect that he is at least consistent. Rapture/ flee to the mountains?

PS I am very familiar with the website you posted the link to. I agree with him on something. Check out his full answer to the question about the translation of "falling away"
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/2-thes-23-falling-away-or-departure/

 

[Brother Mike]

OK, you and @JLB say, that Matthew 24 and Daniel 70th week are referring to the man of sin (anti-Christ) in Revelation.
What does Jesus say. Does He say anything about anyone being removed from the earth during this time? I think His words are "Flee to the mountains!"

I don't think you have taken the time to read everything I took the time to write. You from Judea? You keep the Sabbath? I have mountains but Indiana don't.

You don't see the immediately after the tribulation any different than not knowing the day or hour for those that call him Lord. You see no difference?

After the Seventh seal, it will be very dark out. Jesus comes in the clouds and glory. Light sparks through the whole atmosphere. We have it timed exactly when He comes for those in Judea that keep the Sabbath.

For those that call him Lord though...........

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

Two in the field, one taken.............. Two grinding in the mill...........

Who works in the field after the sun, moon and stars go haywire, and the Lord is on the way? It's dark!!! Post tribbers do, that is who.

Just as the days of Noah..... Nobody had a clue, then Tribulation (At that time those written in the book are delivered)

So, we miss the trumpets, Giant creatures stinging people from the smoking pit, never even notice those things.

You see absolutely no difference Deborah??? None?? You don't see two very different events here? If you can't, then nothing I can do to make it even more clear. I have to drag you and JLB with me I guess.

Mike.

 

[farouk]

The great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24.21 seems to indicate by its context that it is a unque event in the history of the world.

The general tribulation principle, which the Lord Jesus refers to in John 16.33 (but we should not fear, He has overcome the world), is distinct from the unique event of Matthew 24.

 

[JLB]

The great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24.21 seems to indicate by its context that it is a unque event in the history of the world.

The general tribulation principle, which the Lord Jesus refers to in John 16.33 (but we should not fear, He has overcome the world), is distinct from the unique event of Matthew 24.

:amen

 

[Deborah13]

I have to drag you and JLB with me I guess.

LOL, thanks!

But I think if we are mistaken we'll be OK. No where does the Word say that our salvation has anything to do with how we interpret prophecy. So are expecting Him just as you are. He is coming again and I believe in the resurrection of the saints.

Believe me Mike, I read every word that I see you post and I agree with you on many things. I get confused about what you are saying about end times.
But I do keep reading and bruising my forehead on the table or the palm of my hand.

I'll read this last again. You see, I used to believe in the rapture and dispy doctrine. So it's not totally foreign to me, it's just been many....years since I studied it. It really didn't matter much. My AoG church had it all figured out for me. And I read Hal Lindey's, Late Great Planet Earth.

 

[Brother Mike]

Believe me Mike, I read every word that I see you post and I agree with you on many things. I get confused about what you are saying about end times.
But I do keep reading and bruising my forehead on the table or the palm of my hand.

I thought AOG believed in some pre-trib rapture? I am not a fan of Hal Lindey, not saying He did not have good points. I do my best to stay away from news and the Word lining up with current events. Such as the East Gate being Shut now, Israel being divided up. I can list about 40 of them going on right now that points to the fact we are very close to seeing something different.

I felt I made some very good points about there being a Pre-Trib................ you mentioned JLB having good points, the only difference is that 7 year period we both agree on and I have Jesus popping in to say hi, then zipping us outta here, then coming back. Him coming in the clouds with glory, both JLB and I both agree on. In fact we agree most everything except those few key verses I gave to you where we see them different.

So........ your belief is what? The Kingdom already here, no pre or post trib? If your view is not at Least Post trib......... then we are pretty far apart in understanding each other about how it's going to end.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Who was taken away in the flood? Not Noah, he and his family where safe in the Ark. Just as we are safe in the Ark, Jesus.

 

[reba]

Different AofG pastors can/will have different views on rapture....

What else could anyone expect from a church that Dr. Gene Scott wrote much of their ( not sure of the correct word) doctrine beliefs what ever that word should be

 

[Deborah13]

I thought AOG believed in some pre-trib rapture?

Yep, I believed pre-trib rapture.

So........ your belief is what?

Well, I just started over Mike. So I don't have everything solid yet. and frankly probably never will.

I see Jesus coming again. New Heaven, new earth. I see resurrection of the saints. Earthly bodies to glorified bodies (whatever that looks like). Not in that order.

I don't see a reign of a specified 1,000 yrs when there will be a return to blood sacrifices. Jesus, did it all at the cross. He fulfilled the Law of Moses (all of it) at the cross. That's why the apostles and Hebrews could say it no longer applied and was fading away. Animal sacrifices were completely done away with in the 70 AD generation.
So when Jesus says that it would fulfill the prophecy in Daniel, I do see that as Daniel 9 verses that have been discussed.

Has satan been loosed to do his best, I don't think so.

I do believe we are living in the Kingdom of God, He is with us reigning through us here on earth right now. But satan has not been dealt with, as in lake of fire.

 

[turnorburn]

Where did the OP run off to? I've known people to start an argument just for the pleasure they derive from it..

Yo! Brother Steve
tob

 

[Brother Mike]

Who was taken away in the flood? Not Noah, he and his family where safe in the Ark. Just as we are safe in the Ark, Jesus.

Kingdom of God now here (Check)

Satan is here, but not at full power (Check)

No animal sacrifices started up. (????) Are they suppose to be? back under the law? ummm. I heard this, but Seven years is not enough time to institute such a thing, and those believes that are left, or raptured would not buy into it anyway. Not really checked on this one.

New bodies!!!! (Check- God may have a sense of humor, so everyone get down to the weight you need to be, just say'in)

I do believe we are living in the Kingdom of God, He is with us reigning through us here on earth right now. But satan has not been dealt with, as in lake of fire.

Um, this is interesting. The Kingdom of God abides in us, we are enforcing the Will of God on Earth through the direction of the Head of the Church. This sounds good, I believe it's the will of God to heal everyone, not just those he picks and chooses because it's his will in Heaven.

but............. is there not some time when the sinner is moved off the Earth and Satan bound where Jesus can have full reign with us believers? Still the Kingdom of God here, but with the King also here. I have a issue with Rev 20 taking this stance. Satan is definitely not bound yet.

Aside from Jesus not coming personally and setting up without having to deal with Mr. Devil, and your stance of having to hang out during the Tribulation are the things we differ on.

Mike the 1st.

Where did the OP run off to? I've known people to start an argument just for the pleasure they derive from it..

Yo! Brother Steve
tob

I agree, but if you knew what Steve believed, It would not take long for him to get himself banned, even though He is a Oneness, Modelist like this website, He had other far ranging beliefs that were creepy. I use to work with an Apostolic Pastor. It was nothing but going in circles about what the Word did say.

Mike again/?

 

[Deborah13]

Aside from Jesus not coming personally and setting up without having to deal with Mr. Devil, and your stance of having to hang out during the Tribulation are the things we differ on.

Well, we can't really get into the differences in this thread because it is specifically about the Rapture.
To night I will look through some of the old threads and see it there is one that would be appropriate. I'll just say now that the biggest difference is going to be how we see the State of Israel and who we believe God's Israel is. The one of the first places to start in that determination is Acts 15 compared to Amos 9. In Acts James quotes from Amos 9.

 

[n2thelight]

Ive read most of these posts and it's clear to me, nobody seems to understand what the tribulation is.......

 

[reba]

There is no "the great tribulation"