TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

he only biblical sin unto death is described by Paul as "being cut-off from Christ"

Really?

Please show us the scripture that states that the only sin unto death is being "cut off from Christ".

I know you are a person that doesn't like to go beyond what the scriptures say, so I would like to see this scripture.


JLB

Well one can assume being "cut-off" from Christ is a sin unto death, don't you think? I see no other sin that John would be speaking of? Unless he is speaking of "hate" ? Its no doubt the same thing, for those who are cutoff from Christ are separated from Gods Love and are not able to Love as John is speaking.

 

[Deborah13]

Matthew 12:24-31
12 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[JLB]

The only biblical sin unto death is described by Paul as "being cut-off from Christ" "falling from grace" So you only condemn yourself. I cannot pray for you to have life in your rejection of life.

Matthew 12:24-31
12 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.â€
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Excellent scripture.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again -


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

the sin is further defined in Galatians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



JLB

 

[George Muller]

Matthew 12:24-31
12 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Possible, this is what John is speaking? But we all know many "Christians" that speak evil of the Holy Spirit, I warn them with strong words as all should. But I am not convinced this is what John is speaking of, more likely he is speaking to that which I posted.

 

[George Muller]

The only biblical sin unto death is described by Paul as "being cut-off from Christ" "falling from grace" So you only condemn yourself. I cannot pray for you to have life in your rejection of life.

Matthew 12:24-31
12 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Excellent scripture.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again -


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

the sin is further defined in Galatians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



JLB

Lets see "contentions" jealousies, wrath, and selfish ambition, you just defined the modern legalistic church. I suggest that if you do any of these things you should reconsider the foolishness of your position.


Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine) which was delivered you. (faith)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Context is a hard thing for legalist, it requires a desire to know the truth.

 

[josefnospam]

Well would you like to boast in your holiness? Feel free! I will boast in the Lord.

 

[George Muller]

For those who are interested, the word "sanctified" and "holy" are the same as used through out the New Testament.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In this passage the point that "holiness" by the law demanded obedience to the written code. But for a believer we have been made holy and perfected by the Blood of Christ.

Now the "holiness" we have is not that from obedience to written rules and standards, but the "holiness" of Gods Spirit as one walks in faith.


For it is written that Christ Himself has been made unto us "holiness".


Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.


Now one can claim they have a form of holiness based upon their religious works... or lawkeeping etc.. but this sort of religious holiness has nothing to do with the truth of the gospel.

The term "holy" in effect means separated unto God, above what is common. Now this power comes only in that one "walks in the spirit" and if one is really walking in the spirit, they will manifest the fruits of the spirit. These fruits alone describe what is holy unto God and that which he accepts through faith in Christ.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance:

Now thankfully I was delivered from a "holiness" religious group. I have seen and do testify that all those who seek to work holiness through the flesh and religious works and rules, are NEVER holy, on the contrary they are bitter, jealous, full of envy and strife, covetousness, hypocricy, wrath etc..

Ac 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 ¶ And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

This same Peter that denied Christ with curses only a few days before, had no religious deception about his own "holiness" he was in no way deceived as some are into believing that the Spirit of God moves or acts according to the holiness of any man. In fact it was Peters weakness and broken pride that allowed the Spirit of God to rest upon him. As Paul wrote over and over it is when we are in a condition of truth and weakness in our flesh, that we allow the power of Gods Spirit to make us a vessel fit for the Masters use. Those who claim they have power with God based on their holiness, are in the greatest of errors, and very well may be under the influence of a satanic spirit working false things through them in their pride.

 

[JLB]

The only biblical sin unto death is described by Paul as "being cut-off from Christ" "falling from grace" So you only condemn yourself. I cannot pray for you to have life in your rejection of life.

Matthew 12:24-31
12 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.â€
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Excellent scripture.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again -


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

the sin is further defined in Galatians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



JLB

Lets see "contentions" jealousies, wrath, and selfish ambition, you just defined the modern legalistic church. I suggest that if you do any of these things you should reconsider the foolishness of your position.


Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine) which was delivered you. (faith)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Context is a hard thing for legalist, it requires a desire to know the truth.

Read the context for yourself -

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Read for yourself -

Shall we sin BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW BUT UNDER GRACE... to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death,

Put your reading glasses on Brother, this is written to people under grace!!!

Paul states clearly that if people under grace present themselves as slaves of sin, IT LEADS TO DEATH!!!

The scriptures have found your doctrine to be weighed and found wanting, again.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Excellent scripture.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again -


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

the sin is further defined in Galatians -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



JLB

Lets see "contentions" jealousies, wrath, and selfish ambition, you just defined the modern legalistic church. I suggest that if you do any of these things you should reconsider the foolishness of your position.


Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine) which was delivered you. (faith)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Context is a hard thing for legalist, it requires a desire to know the truth.

Read the context for yourself -

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Read for yourself -

Shall we sin BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW BUT UNDER GRACE... to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death,

Put your reading glasses on Brother, this is written to people under grace!!!

Paul states clearly that if people under grace present themselves as slaves of sin, IT LEADS TO DEATH!!!

The scriptures have found your doctrine to be weighed and found wanting, again.


JLB

So what point do you think you are making? If one walks in grace they overcome sin, if they are under law they are "sinners" and the strength of sin, is the law. Don't sin, because Gods grace has given you power over that sin.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, (but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine) which was delivered you. (faith)
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[JLB]

So what point do you think you are making?

I am making no point at all.

Paul on the other hand is making a very clear point.

Paul states clearly that if people under grace present themselves as slaves of sin, IT LEADS TO DEATH!!!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have the mic now, so speak...

"George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?"

Defend your doctrine. Answer the question. We're listening.

You always seem to think you are more than one person? And I have seen no evidence of his "legalism"? If you have it? Post it. And please post a reference to your source.

I see 14 users in this thread right now. I already produced the evidence of Mueller 'looking to the law and doing it' with reference. Now,please, stop stalling and and answer the question:

"George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?"

Give the source of this statement, so it can be looked at in the truth? Are you afraid of the light of truth? I am not.

"He also eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Müller


Now that your memory is refreshed, please answer my question:

George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?

 

[Deborah13]

Possible, this is what John is speaking? But we all know many "Christians" that speak evil of the Holy Spirit, I warn them with strong words as all should. But I am not convinced this is what John is speaking of, more likely he is speaking to that which I posted.

So are you saying, that John is saying, that we should not pray for someone who as fallen from grace, to be restored?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well "love" is not legalism it is obedience to the Spirit and not to the letter. Do you not understand this point that Paul made over and over? "the letter kills" legalism kills, but love and the Spirit give life. And most "Christians" are stuck in the mixture of law and grace, not understanding this very issue. I do not steal, because "love" is the fulfillment of all the laws of God. This love does not proceed from the "written code" of the law of Moses, it proceeds and flows based on Gods UNCONDITIONAL love for me, which is shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit. If is does not come from the Holy Spirit it is not the true love of God.

Wow, finally you have made a full statement that I can totally agree with.

And that is good preaching, in the Spirit of grace.

[...]
Consider that all the laws of God are fulfilled in love? "LOVE is the law and works as a law to govern Gods People. But it is not in keeping the written code, for that is a work of the flesh.

Deborah, his argument is that to consult the 'written code', and then do it, is legalism, as opposed to doing things out of love (his doctrine misunderstands what legalism is). But we see that is what the real George Muller did, but fake Mr. Muller can't bring himself to acknowledge that real Mr. Muller did that, and more importantly that doing that can still constitute obeying God out of love for others and is not categorically and without exception the damnable sin of legalism (depending on one's own ability to be righteous).

This fringe 'holy roller' doctrine doesn't understand that God's voice can inhabit his written law and move someone to obey him out of love, and that is just as 'spiritual' as not reading the written law and somehow knowing what the right thing to do to love others is and then doing it. They think only the latter way counts. That's nonsense. But it's part of the misguided teachings of some sects of the charismatic movement. They see it as the difference between the holiness of law, and the holiness of the Spirit.

Those who have and know Gods Love and have yielded to its order, have the authority from God to correct according to love. Those who do not have this love, and have not submitted to its order, have no authority to correct other believers.

And, Deborah, guess what James used to correct the church he was speaking to that were sinning by showing favoritism to the rich in the assembly?

The law.


Through that same letter, James also corrected the real George Muller centuries later when Muller realized through that passage that they were sinning by showing favoritism to the rich in his congregation. We can be sure that the real George Muller responded in the Spirit of grace...the very thing the fake George Muller is sure can not happen if you 'look to the law' and then act based on what you see there.

 

[George Muller]

Possible, this is what John is speaking? But we all know many "Christians" that speak evil of the Holy Spirit, I warn them with strong words as all should. But I am not convinced this is what John is speaking of, more likely he is speaking to that which I posted.

So are you saying, that John is saying, that we should not pray for someone who as fallen from grace, to be restored?

Well to use your own logic, are you saying we should not pray for those who speak evil of the Holy Spirit? as many do? The issue is "life" and life is in the "Spirit". The "letter" - legalism is death.

 

[George Muller]

So what point do you think you are making?

I am making no point at all.

Paul on the other hand is making a very clear point.

Paul states clearly that if people under grace present themselves as slaves of sin, IT LEADS TO DEATH!!!


JLB

Slavery to sin is through the law, "for the law is the strength of sin" Yes I agree you are not making any point at all.

 

[George Muller]

I see 14 users in this thread right now. I already produced the evidence of Mueller 'looking to the law and doing it' with reference. Now,please, stop stalling and and answer the question:

"George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?"

Give the source of this statement, so it can be looked at in the truth? Are you afraid of the light of truth? I am not.

"He also eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Müller


Now that your memory is refreshed, please answer my question:

George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?

No where in this article does it claim that "he looked to the law of Moses" but it does show that he obeyed the "law written upon the heart" love and grace was his ways and this is why I admire him.

George Müller (German – born as : Johann Georg Ferdinand Müller) (27 September 1805 – 10 March 1898), a Christian evangelist and Director of the Ashley Down orphanage in Bristol, England, cared for 10,024[1] orphans in his life.[2] He was well known for providing an education to the children under his care, to the point where he was accused of raising the poor above their natural station in life. He also established 117 schools which offered Christian education to over 120,000 children, many of them being orphans.

Be sure it was the "legalist" who fought against his work, and against the mercy of Christ, as it always was and is.

Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:

 

[Jethro Bodine]

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

The same John who penned these verses also penned these just before that:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10 NASB)

You see, he wasn't teaching that truly saved, spiritual people don't sin. That's a joke. But this sinless perfection is the very attitude of the Pharisees. The attitude that some say people have who 'look to the law' and then seek to do what it says (i.e. don't show favoritism to the rich, etc.) not knowing they are actually the ones who are the Pharisees.

I've been waiting for the right place to confront this hypocritical attitude of the 'super spiritual' sects in the charismatic movement. They don't realize they are actually the one's with the attitude of the Pharisees in the church...thinking they are without sin, and high and above the less spiritual common man, pleasing God to the utmost with their special abilities and gifts.

That is exactly the attitude of the Pharisees. The only difference being, the modern day Pharisee measures his righteousness by his spiritual privileges and giftedness and spiritual obedience, while the Pharisee of Jesus' day measured it by their appointed positions and their keeping of the letter of the law. But both are guilty of the same thing--looking good on the outside, but not having the character of God on the inside, with lying hypocrisy being the telltale sign of what they are.


Mods, I know this is some pretty strong stuff, but I'm being careful to speak only to doctrines here. No finger pointing. No names named.

 

[George Muller]

This fringe 'holy roller' doctrine doesn't understand that God's voice can inhabit his written law and move someone to obey him out of love, and that is just as 'spiritual'

So when Paul says "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life" he is in error? You seem to be unable to understand the difference? To be under the written code (legalism) is death, to be set free from the law and walk in the Spirit is life and peace. Justified by faith not by keeping the 10 Commandments or any part of the law, but by faith in Christ. His commandment is to love as He loves us. Faith working by love is the only thing that profits, legalism is just death to all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see 14 users in this thread right now. I already produced the evidence of Mueller 'looking to the law and doing it' with reference. Now,please, stop stalling and and answer the question:

"George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?"

Give the source of this statement, so it can be looked at in the truth? Are you afraid of the light of truth? I am not.

"He also eliminated the renting of church pews, arguing that it gave unfair prestige to the rich (based primarily on James 2:1-9)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller


Now that your memory is refreshed, please answer my question:

George Muller did that...he 'looked to the law', found out what it required, and did it. Are you now saying it's possible to do that and not be a legalist?

No where in this article does it claim that "he looked to the law of Moses" but it does show that he obeyed the "law written upon the heart" love and grace was his ways and this is why I admire him.

Noboby is arguing that George Muller obeyed because of the Holy Spirit at work in him. The point is, he realized what the law required and did it. But you insist that equates to damnable legalism. So, either you stick with that argument and admit George Muller was a legalist serving the flesh, or acknowledge that God speaks 'spiritually' through his written word to lead us to the obedience of the Spirit.

Which will it be?


"27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:27 NASB)

 

[George Muller]

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes those who are justified IN CHRIST cannot sin against the law of Moses. This is true righteousness and there is no other.

The same John who penned these verses also penned these just before that:

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10 NASB)

You see, he wasn't teaching that truly saved, spiritual people don't sin. That's a joke. But this sinless perfection is the very attitude of the Pharisees. The attitude that some say people have who 'look to the law' and then seek to do what it says (i.e. don't show favoritism to the rich, etc.) not knowing they are actually the ones who are the Pharisees.

I've been waiting for the right place to confront this hypocritical attitude of the 'super spiritual' sects in the charismatic movement. They don't realize they are actually the one's with the attitude of the Pharisees in the church...thinking they are without sin, and high and above the less spiritual common man, pleasing God to the utmost with their special abilities and gifts.

That is exactly the attitude of the Pharisees. The only difference being, the modern day Pharisee measures his righteousness by his spiritual privileges and giftedness and spiritual obedience, while the Pharisee of Jesus' day measured it by their appointed positions and their keeping of the letter of the law. But both are guilty of the same thing--looking good on the outside, but not having the character of God on the inside, with lying hypocrisy being the telltale sign of what they are.


Mods, I know this is some pretty strong stuff, but I'm being careful to speak only to doctrines here. No finger pointing. No names named.

Not sure what point you "think" your making, of course John was teaching that "IN CHRIST" we have no sin and cannot sin. The conflict is in your mind because you do not understand what it means to be "IN CHRIST" - I COULD NOT SPEAK TO YOU AS SPIRITUAL BUT AS TO CARNAL AS A BABE IN CHRIST.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.